Celtics News

[jambr380]

We weren't beating the Knicks, but the Sixers getting swept by them just makes that last round choke look even worse. For reference, the C's had a 3-1 lead against the Sixers and a double digit lead in the 2nd half of Game 5 with Embiid out there for Games 4 and beyond. And the C's colossally choked it away. Then the Sixers didn't win any game in the 2nd round and basically got blown out in 3 of them.

If that's not a big reflection on the Celtics either then idk. I personally am even more ticked.

The good news is that Brad didn't seem particularly impressed with the Celtics season, citing that next year there won't be nearly as many teams tanking (thus inflating our wins).

He also said that to prevent what happened with the Sixers this year and the Knicks last year, he wants to increase our margin for error.

Those two comments make me think we are going to be making bigger changes. I'm annoyed, too, but it would have just been a 2nd round loss instead of a 1st round loss. Obviously we weren't going anywhere with this year's team - especially with Tatum missing at least part of the 2nd round.

[Roy H.]

We weren't beating the Knicks, but the Sixers getting swept by them just makes that last round choke look even worse. For reference, the C's had a 3-1 lead against the Sixers and a double digit lead in the 2nd half of Game 5 with Embiid out there for Games 4 and beyond. And the C's colossally choked it away. Then the Sixers didn't win any game in the 2nd round and basically got blown out in 3 of them.

If that's not a big reflection on the Celtics either then idk. I personally am even more ticked.

Looking objectively, we probably should have seen this coming. Our offense doesn't score much in transition, we don't post up and we run less pick and roll than almost all contenders. On defense, we don't defend the three-point line well.

Our three-point shooting ranks outside the top quadrant, and yet we shoot threes relentlessly. 

[Phantom255x]

We weren't beating the Knicks, but the Sixers getting swept by them just makes that last round choke look even worse. For reference, the C's had a 3-1 lead against the Sixers and a double digit lead in the 2nd half of Game 5 with Embiid out there for Games 4 and beyond. And the C's colossally choked it away. Then the Sixers didn't win any game in the 2nd round and basically got blown out in 3 of them.

If that's not a big reflection on the Celtics either then idk. I personally am even more ticked.

Looking objectively, we probably should have seen this coming. Our offense doesn't score much in transition, we don't post up and we run less pick and roll than almost all contenders. On defense, we don't defend the three-point line well.

Our three-point shooting ranks outside the top quadrant, and yet we shoot threes relentlessly.

Agreed. I just think it's an even worse look losing in the FIRST round. Yeah if they lost to NY or even a team like CLE/DET later on with this playstyle, still frustrating but you could kind of see it. PHI had a bunch of flaws too and really only have a good 6-man rotation which includes a rookie. NY exposed it. C's did as well to go up 3-1, but then poof

[Moranis]

Boston clearly should have gone full rebuild last summer and traded White and Brown and kept Tatum out all year.  I'm just glad Tatum appears to not have seriously hurt himself coming back so early.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Boston clearly should have gone full rebuild last summer and traded White and Brown and kept Tatum out all year.  I'm just glad Tatum appears to not have seriously hurt himself coming back so early.

Disagree. If anything, Brown's value is higher this off-season. White's is the same.

The possible draft pick is the only loss. But I think a full season of winning has led to a lot of good development for Baylor, Hugo, and Queta.

It's a wash. Plus, we showed respect for the game. I still think that matters.

[Moranis]

Boston clearly should have gone full rebuild last summer and traded White and Brown and kept Tatum out all year.  I'm just glad Tatum appears to not have seriously hurt himself coming back so early.

Disagree. If anything, Brown's value is higher this off-season. White's is the same.

The possible draft pick is the only loss. But I think a full season of winning has led to a lot of good development for Baylor, Hugo, and Queta.

It's a wash. Plus, we showed respect for the game. I still think that matters.

I don't think Brown's value is higher.  Probably about the same, but by not making the move we wasted this year, didn't get a high draft (or perhaps 2) in a very strong deep draft, and generally just delayed everything.  White's value is also probably lower after his terrible shooting all year and his continued statistical regression.  None of those young guys are core pieces.  They are fine for rotational depth, but they aren't guys that should be starting on real contending teams.  Also, probably would have improved more with more playing time.  Winning in the regular season is nice, but the best development comes from playing time. 

Without major changes to the roster, Boston isn't going to win anything in the post season.  Maybe a series or two, but not championships.  The longer Brad waits, the longer it is until the team can start competing again.  I said it last summer and the way this season ended, I think showed that to be correct.  Boston simply isn't good enough.  They weren't good enough last year, when they had way more talent on the roster, so this post-season result really shouldn't have surprised anyone.  The shockingly good regular season was a mirage. 

[Who]

The shockingly good regular season was a mirage.

I agree. Stevens said something similar. This did not feel like a 56 win team. It felt more like a 46-48 win team to me.

That said ... it was a 46-48 win without Jayson Tatum. With Jayson Tatum, this is a 55-60 win team. This is a juggernaught.

Last year's team without Tatum reminds me of teams like Chris Bosh's Raptors. Jaylen as Bosh. Some good role players. Some decent young players. But no star help for Bosh (or Jaylen). Those Raptors teams were always fighting an uphill battle because they couldn't get that 2nd star. We have him. We have Jayson Tatum. Those Raptors teams could have become a title contender too if you added Tatum to them.

So yes, the 56 win season is a mirage. Last year's group is not that good. I agree. I have the more at 46-48 win level. But we are adding Jayson Tatum to that. This is a legit 55-60 win team with Tatum. This is a fantastic team.

[Vermont Green]

The shockingly good regular season was a mirage.

I agree. Stevens said something similar. This did not feel like a 56 win team. It felt more like a 46-48 win team to me.

That said ... it was a 46-48 win without Jayson Tatum. With Jayson Tatum, this is a 55-60 win team. This is a juggernaught.

Last year's team without Tatum reminds me of teams like Chris Bosh's Raptors. Jaylen as Bosh. Some good role players. Some decent young players. But no star help for Bosh (or Jaylen). Those Raptors teams were always fighting an uphill battle because they couldn't get that 2nd star. We have him. We have Jayson Tatum. Those Raptors teams could have become a title contender too if you added Tatum to them.

So yes, the 56 win season is a mirage. Last year's group is not that good. I agree. I have the more at 46-48 win level. But we are adding Jayson Tatum to that. This is a legit 55-60 win team with Tatum. This is a fantastic team.

As to the mirage theory, it is true that many of the role players kind of came out of nowhere and had way better regular seasons than anyone expected (at least than I expected).  Guys like Queta, Walsh, Scheierman, and even Gonzalez are in this category. These players then got exposed in the playoffs.

I don't believe that the core of Tatum, Brown, and White is a mirage.  This may be the best 1-2 punch in the league and a top 3 right there with anyone in the league.  If you trade Brown and White for prospects and draft picks, you are basically starting a 3-5 year rebuild.  Do people forget how many seasons that OKC was bad?  They got lucky, they got SGA, but there is no guarantee that this is how it would go for BOS.

There is also no guarantee that tinkering around the edges of Tatum and Brown will result in a championship either, of course.  Another "goes both ways" thing (some fortune cookie wisdom if you will), while it is true that you can over-react to how good BOS was in the regular season, it is also true that you can over-react to how bad they were in 3 playoff games vs. PHI.  The truth lies in finding the balance.

[Who]

The shockingly good regular season was a mirage.

I agree. Stevens said something similar. This did not feel like a 56 win team. It felt more like a 46-48 win team to me.

That said ... it was a 46-48 win without Jayson Tatum. With Jayson Tatum, this is a 55-60 win team. This is a juggernaught.

Last year's team without Tatum reminds me of teams like Chris Bosh's Raptors. Jaylen as Bosh. Some good role players. Some decent young players. But no star help for Bosh (or Jaylen). Those Raptors teams were always fighting an uphill battle because they couldn't get that 2nd star. We have him. We have Jayson Tatum. Those Raptors teams could have become a title contender too if you added Tatum to them.

So yes, the 56 win season is a mirage. Last year's group is not that good. I agree. I have the more at 46-48 win level. But we are adding Jayson Tatum to that. This is a legit 55-60 win team with Tatum. This is a fantastic team.

As to the mirage theory, it is true that many of the role players kind of came out of nowhere and had way better regular seasons than anyone expected (at least than I expected).  Guys like Queta, Walsh, Scheierman, and even Gonzalez are in this category. These players then got exposed in the playoffs.

I don't believe that the core of Tatum, Brown, and White is a mirage.  This may be the best 1-2 punch in the league and a top 3 right there with anyone in the league.  If you trade Brown and White for prospects and draft picks, you are basically starting a 3-5 year rebuild.  Do people forget how many seasons that OKC was bad?  They got lucky, they got SGA, but there is no guarantee that this is how it would go for BOS.

There is also no guarantee that tinkering around the edges of Tatum and Brown will result in a championship either, of course.  Another "goes both ways" thing (some fortune cookie wisdom if you will), while it is true that you can over-react to how good BOS was in the regular season, it is also true that you can over-react to how bad they were in 3 playoff games vs. PHI.  The truth lies in finding the balance.

Agreed on both counts.

[Moranis]

Oklahoma City missed the playoffs for 3 seasons and one of those 3, they won 40 games.  They weren't bad for long at all and are more similar to Boston in that they had aging stars with value. The trading of George and Westbrook is what kick started the OKC rebuild.   And Boston has the 3rd player such that if they traded White and Brown, they'd still have Tatum.  OKC is more unique than most situations, but because of the starting point, this Boston team (much like the KG/PP trade) isn't starting from the bottom.  The tear down itself is position of strength to jump start a rebuild. 

[Celtics4ever]

I agree. Stevens said something similar. This did not feel like a 56 win team. It felt more like a 46-48 win team to me.

That said ... it was a 46-48 win without Jayson Tatum. With Jayson Tatum, this is a 55-60 win team. This is a juggernaut.

Other teams play the tank game, we do not.    We overachieved in the regular season.  This made us all feel good about the team and in many cases think we could make a run in the open east.   Instead, we are picking lower, and we got bounced out.

I also, think it is highly unlikely we can add much to team on the margins to get us back in contention.  I think it just as unrealistic as thinking we could make the finals this year.    We are going to have to make major changes to address all the needs specified.  Stevens wants us to get more athletic, it is going to mean saying goodbye to some players and to make a lot of these changes your are going to have to deal beloved players.   this also could get us back to contention quicker.   But we don't have draft assets, to draft in guys so it is going to necessitate trades.

I could see Brown and White traded.   Brown is probably a top five athlete on our team too.

I do feel Embiid did well because he was fresh and rested more than our weakness at bigs, while still acknowledging our weakness in the front court is a problem.   He looked much worse against the Knicks and Towns is not a good defender.

[Vermont Green]

Oklahoma City missed the playoffs for 3 seasons and one of those 3, they won 40 games.  They weren't bad for long at all and are more similar to Boston in that they had aging stars with value. The trading of George and Westbrook is what kick started the OKC rebuild.   And Boston has the 3rd player such that if they traded White and Brown, they'd still have Tatum.  OKC is more unique than most situations, but because of the starting point, this Boston team (much like the KG/PP trade) isn't starting from the bottom.  The tear down itself is position of strength to jump start a rebuild.

I don't see winning 40 games as the highlight of a 3-year playoff drought as being something BOS fans would be too happy with.  Yes, we would have Tatum for that stretch but OKC had SGA.  SGA + spare parts and good prospects was a bad team for 3+ years.  Now they are a good team.

And to make sure it is clear what I am debating, it is not to trade or not to trade Brown (or White), it is if you do trade either in the near term, what do you trade them for.  If you trade them for spare parts and draft picks, the team will be worse, not better.  Maybe the team is better some time in the future, maybe (no guarantee), but by then Tatum will be in his 30s.  The time is now to do what you are going to do with Tatum.

I am OK to trade Brown or White for good players who help win now.  It may get to a point sometime in the future where BOS needs to suffer through a 3-5 year tank to totally rebuild, which would include trading Tatum at that point, but I am for delaying that as much as possible.

In summary: 

Trade Brown for Giannis (for example):  Floor is making the playoffs every season.  Ceiling is winning a title.

Trade Brown for Spare Parts and Draft picks:  Floor is no playoffs for 3+ seasons.  Ceiling is to have a title contending team in 3-5 years maybe.

[Moranis]

In 20-21, SGA's 3rd year, he played just 35 games.  They were 16-19 with him and 6-31 without him.  The next year, they went super young with 10 rookies and only Muscala and Favors had more experience than SGA and Kenrich Williams in their 4th years and they only had 2 guys play more than 60 games.  They then won 40 finishing 2 games out of the playoffs with SGA elevating into an all star and all nba player.  The last 3 years, they've won 57, 68, and 64 games are the defending champions and haven't lost a playoff game yet this year. 

Tatum is better than SGA was those first few seasons in OKC when the team was growing.  Boston won't bottom out. They could have this year, but won't going forward.  They need to get younger players and draft picks from other teams and hope they end up high picks like woth what happened in the KG/PP trade.

[Celtics4ever]

Trade Brown for Giannis (for example):  Floor is making the playoffs every season.  Ceiling is winning a title.

Trade Brown for Spare Parts and Draft picks:  Floor is no playoffs for 3+ seasons.  Ceiling is to have a title contending team in 3-5 years maybe.

 I see your point, but neither is guaranteed.  It would be impossible to predict given we don't what the latter would be.

I would not want to trade Brown for spare parts really.  I would swap him for a young and upcoming star or pieces that fit better around Tatum and that is a big difference from is posted above.    We don't have a balanced roster.  Half our team is wings of varying athletic ability and skills, and a lot of them are supposed to be shooters.   I think BS talked about adding athleticism and diversity on the offensive side.   We can't just cling the shoot the threes because, some nights they don't hit.

Here is what I heard from BS, we all hear things differently:

1)   We need a front court addition
2)   We need players who can score the ball in ways others than bombing threes.
3)   We need to get more athletic across the board.

What did you all hear?

Boston won't bottom out. They could have this year, but won't going forward.  They need to get younger players and draft picks from other teams and hope they end up high picks like woth what happened in the KG/PP trade.

I concur 100%

[SparzWizard]

Trade Brown for Giannis (for example):  Floor is making the playoffs every season.  Ceiling is winning a title.

Trade Brown for Spare Parts and Draft picks:  Floor is no playoffs for 3+ seasons.  Ceiling is to have a title contending team in 3-5 years maybe.

 I see your point, but neither is guaranteed.  It would be impossible to predict given we don't what the latter would be.

I would not want to trade Brown for spare parts really.  I would swap him for a young and upcoming star or pieces that fit better around Tatum and that is a big difference from is posted above.    We don't have a balanced roster.  Half our team is wings of varying athletic ability and skills, and a lot of them are supposed to be shooters.   I think BS talked about adding athleticism and diversity on the offensive side.   We can't just cling the shoot the threes because, some nights they don't hit.

Here is what I heard from BS, we all hear things differently:

1)   We need a front court addition
2)   We need players who can score the ball in ways others than bombing threes.
3)   We need to get more athletic across the board.

What did you all hear?

Boston won't bottom out. They could have this year, but won't going forward.  They need to get younger players and draft picks from other teams and hope they end up high picks like woth what happened in the KG/PP trade.

I concur 100%

You want high pick like what happened in KG/PP trade, then trade Tatum for one of picks 1-3