Woj: Jrue to Celtics

[Kernewek]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

A whole thread of citations, and yet you have managed to mischaracterize my argument.  And, I don't know anything about the point of your post.  It struck me as a bit nonsensical.

If you think a reasonable summary of your position is a mischaracterization, that's your prerogative, but fine:

You maintained over the entire regular reason that anything that reflected positively on Mazzulla "didn't matter", because of the collapse against Miami.

That collapse would not have happened, heavily implied by you throughout the thread, if the Celtics had not fired Udoka. So, as you maintained as soon as the whistle sounded on Game 7, if the Celtics keep Udoka, we don't lose to Miami.  There were many, many references to Luke Walton.

Now, this was the same regular season performance which you are now claiming -- post-facto -- showed that there was significant improvement... improvement that didn't matter at the time, according to you. Winning changed that, and fair enough.

I can go through the thread and find the precise quotes if you think I've represented you incorrectly, but there's no serious reason to because my point is that -- in precisely the same way as the Udoka v. Mazz opinion regarding the Miami series -- there is no real way to no real way to prove that Smart instead of Holiday would have seen us bow out in the playoffs this year.

Like you said - all we have are opinions. All I did was point out an interesting equivocation between two of yours regarding elements of success & failure for two recent Celtics squads.

Or, Joe performed poorly in the 2023 playoffs, something multiple players (Smart and Brogdon) commented on. As the team played very well throughout the regular season, fans acknowledged the signs of progress, but also took a "wait and see" approach.  When Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami, he was criticized.  Other than that, fans were mostly complimentary about his coaching.

There's nothing revisionist or inconsistent about seeing somebody fail, hoping they'll improve but being skeptical, and then congratulating them when they succeed.

So you do agree that this Smart/Holiday discussion is as indemonstrable as Mazzulla/Udoka?

"As"?  Probably not.

Every opinion or claim on here is "indemonstrable".  What's your point, other than trolling?

Well, for one thing, I'd be interested in reading your opinion on why Smart-to-Holiday is more important/significant/substantial than Udoka-to-Mazzulla.

Call it trolling if you'd like, but I think it's an interesting tangent to an existing conversation.

[droopdog7]

I knew it had to be either Al or Rob and the Celts chose right

https://www.si.com/fannation/nba/fastbreak/news/breaking-boston-celtics-trade-for-nba-champion

My comment, the third one in this thread, aged well

[vjcsmoke]

Smart leaving the team is as pivotal as Holiday joining the team. Smart was a great and fierce defender, true. But his decision-making at the end of ball games played a large part in many Celtics 4th quarter collapses over the years and in the playoffs. Meanwhile Holiday's experience winning it all and bringing that professional presence to the locker room surely helped increase our Championship odds.

Bottom line: This Celtics team could NOT finally become the Jayson and Jaylen led team until Smart left. And that's not denigrating Smart, that's just stating the culture needed to change and the mantle passed on to those two for this team to find its true championship identity.

Your argument already sounds logically weak when it starts with, well Smart being here would not be SO problematic as to PREVENT us winning a title. Seems to be a bit of grasping at straws.

It is true that Smart has a little of that Draymond Green or something in him, where he drives his teammates crazy sometimes, but they know that he will fight to the end for them.  Brown says he loves Marcus.  Tatum said he is a different guy but you learn to love him.

I am not convinced that Marcus Smart would be a locker room problem to the extent that it would prevent a team from winning a title.  As you said, it is just our opinions.

[SHAQATTACK]

Jrue plays the perfect balance of defense and offense

[Roy H.]

[Donoghus]

That's a solid list.

Man, D-Rose pre-injury was ridiculous.

Jrue vs. prime Iverson would've been fun to watch.

[Roy H.]

That's a solid list.

Man, D-Rose pre-injury was ridiculous.

Jrue vs. prime Iverson would've been fun to watch.

For sure. 

I'd love to see what Jrue would have been like in the hand-checking era.  I think he's one of the guys who would have been a true lock-down defender, something that basically doesn't exist any more.

And, as I'm sure every veteran of this blog has heard, I'll never forgive the 76ers for breaking up the Jrue / Iguodala backcourt.  Those two, plus a past-his-prime Elton Brand, were a ton of fun to watch defensively.

[Vermont Green]

Smart leaving the team is as pivotal as Holiday joining the team. Smart was a great and fierce defender, true. But his decision-making at the end of ball games played a large part in many Celtics 4th quarter collapses over the years and in the playoffs. Meanwhile Holiday's experience winning it all and bringing that professional presence to the locker room surely helped increase our Championship odds.

Bottom line: This Celtics team could NOT finally become the Jayson and Jaylen led team until Smart left. And that's not denigrating Smart, that's just stating the culture needed to change and the mantle passed on to those two for this team to find its true championship identity.

Your argument already sounds logically weak when it starts with, well Smart being here would not be SO problematic as to PREVENT us winning a title. Seems to be a bit of grasping at straws.

It is true that Smart has a little of that Draymond Green or something in him, where he drives his teammates crazy sometimes, but they know that he will fight to the end for them.  Brown says he loves Marcus.  Tatum said he is a different guy but you learn to love him.

I am not convinced that Marcus Smart would be a locker room problem to the extent that it would prevent a team from winning a title.  As you said, it is just our opinions.

Yes, Smart can cause teammates to shake their heads sometimes.  I used the comparison to Draymond Green, who is far worse than Smart in that regard.  But Draymond didn't prevent Curry and Thompson from leading the Warriors to titles.  Why would Smart be some kind of barrier or constraint to Tatum and Brown?  I don't believe he would.  Holiday is a better all around player than Smart.  It is that simple.  If Draymond Green was a replaced with a better player, the Warriors would be a better team too.

Porzingis replaced Robert Williams in the same way that Holiday replaced Smart.  Not traded for directly but in terms of roles.  We got better due to Porzingis being better than Williams.  It is the same for Smart and Holiday.  We got better players and the team got better.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct answer.  Any conclusion beyond that is conjecture.