Woj: Jrue to Celtics

[SparzWizard]

That final minute where he just took over against Indiana in Game 3 on the road was amazing.

We don't win the Finals without Jrue. I love Smart a lot but getting Jrue really pushed us over the top. And Porzingis was also missing most of the postseason so Jrue had to step up even more and do a lot of the little things, even if his stats didn't always look "flashy"

Why even bring up Smart, though? The guy we traded Smart for barely played in the playoffs. We also had a much much much easier path than we ever had in the past.

I'm super-happy with Jrue and how he turned it on after a tough Miami series, but Smart doesn't have anything to do with this. It's not like if we had Smart instead of KP these playoffs we wouldn't have won this year.

Our 2022 and 2023 teams likely win this year. But I acknowledge with a healthy KP, this year's team likely wins one or both of those years.

I think if we had Smart, his turnovers or brick shots would've costed us two or three of those Pacers games esp Games 1 and 3

[Phantom255x]

That final minute where he just took over against Indiana in Game 3 on the road was amazing.

We don't win the Finals without Jrue. I love Smart a lot but getting Jrue really pushed us over the top. And Porzingis was also missing most of the postseason so Jrue had to step up even more and do a lot of the little things, even if his stats didn't always look "flashy"

Why even bring up Smart, though? The guy we traded Smart for barely played in the playoffs. We also had a much much much easier path than we ever had in the past.

I'm super-happy with Jrue and how he turned it on after a tough Miami series, but Smart doesn't have anything to do with this. It's not like if we had Smart instead of KP these playoffs we wouldn't have won this year.

Our 2022 and 2023 teams likely win this year. But I acknowledge with a healthy KP, this year's team likely wins one or both of those years.

I think if we had Smart, his turnovers or brick shots would've costed us two or three of those Pacers games esp Games 1 and 3

Yeah I feel the same way. His attempt at "leadership" which included acting like he was the true 3rd guy alongside Jaylen and Tatum is not what this team needed either. With Smart leaving, White + Pritchard also got more of an opportunity which they thrived in, and the Jays (especially Brown) really grew and matured into the leaders of this team. Ultimately Holiday did replace Smart's role and spot in the roster but he was more than willing to be a sidekick when needed.

And again, this is coming from someone that loved Smart. I wouldn't mind him coming back to ring chase with us later on if it doesn't work out in MEM. But you can kind of look at it like the Red Sox trading Nomar in 2004. Very painful, but probably necessary.

[ozgod]

That final minute where he just took over against Indiana in Game 3 on the road was amazing.

We don't win the Finals without Jrue. I love Smart a lot but getting Jrue really pushed us over the top. And Porzingis was also missing most of the postseason so Jrue had to step up even more and do a lot of the little things, even if his stats didn't always look "flashy"

Why even bring up Smart, though? The guy we traded Smart for barely played in the playoffs. We also had a much much much easier path than we ever had in the past.

I'm super-happy with Jrue and how he turned it on after a tough Miami series, but Smart doesn't have anything to do with this. It's not like if we had Smart instead of KP these playoffs we wouldn't have won this year.

Our 2022 and 2023 teams likely win this year. But I acknowledge with a healthy KP, this year's team likely wins one or both of those years.

I think if we had Smart, his turnovers or brick shots would've costed us two or three of those Pacers games esp Games 1 and 3

Yeah I feel the same way. His attempt at "leadership" which included acting like he was the true 3rd guy alongside Jaylen and Tatum is not what this team needed either. With Smart leaving, White + Pritchard also got more of an opportunity which they thrived in, and the Jays (especially Brown) really grew and matured into the leaders of this team. Ultimately Holiday did replace Smart's role and spot in the roster but he was more than willing to be a sidekick when needed.

And again, this is coming from someone that loved Smart. I wouldn't mind him coming back to ring chase with us later on if it doesn't work out in MEM. But you can kind of look at it like the Red Sox trading Nomar in 2004. Very painful, but probably necessary.

I guess to be fair to Smartacus he played like he felt he had to prove he was in the top tier, because that's what got him to the level he did in his career as the Celtics struggled to get to that top level. Jrue was just at a different stage of his career that Smartacus was, he had won one already, he came into an established team that had stars everywhere. Jrue also got a lot of criticism from Milwaukee fans in 2022 and 2023 for trying to do too much, shooting them out of playoff games, etc. In a sense this was the perfect spot for him, he could play within himself and do what the team needed rather than have to score 20ppg a game which he had to in Milwaukee especially with Middleton injured.

As you say, it's not Smartacus' fault that he thought he was the third option...he had to think he was a top tier player to survive in an NBA where if you don't have confidence in yourself you get left behind (e.g. Langford vs Nesmith). He was the most senior guy, he took on the leadership role when Cryrie and Al left. Remember if not for Brogdon's injury Smartacus would have still been with us, though I still think Brad would have pulled the trigger on a trade with Portland when Jrue became available, because Jrue is just an upgrade in every way. It's just a fit issue - Jrue just fits better. He cost more, nearly twice as much, for those who bother to look at these things, so you would expect him to be better - but he also fit better both physically and temperament wise.

[Roy H.]

By the end of his time here, I thought Smart had showed a Tony Allen level of consistency, where there was "good Marcus" and "bad Marcus".  Who showed up fluctuated wildly.  That applied to everything:  shooting, decision making, effort.  Last year and in 2021, Marcus' defensive effort waxed and waned; in 2022 he was stellar.

He also had a weird vibe in the locker room, where some saw him as a "heart and soul" type of player, while he clashed with others.

I wish him the best, but I don't miss him.  If we have Smart in place of Jrue, I don't think we win a title.  If we have a 3-man guard rotation of Jrue, White and Smart, I'm still not sure that we win, because I think Marcus would have objected to coming off the bench.  That would have made White less effective, and we already saw some undermining of Joe by Marcus in 2023.

[Kernewek]

We all know the real key to getting us over the hump was getting rid of Grant Williams. Let's not kid ourselves.

[Phantom255x]

We all know the real key to getting us over the hump was getting rid of Grant Williams. Let's not kid ourselves.

It's a shame. I had high hopes for him and he seemed to be coming along nicely. But trying to become a "Draymond-like presence" in the 2022 Finals and beyond just hurt him. And my lasting memory of him is telling Mitchell he'll "hit both" and he ended up missing both FTs 

[jambr380]

You guys don't really believe this do you? You truly think just by Smart being on the roster in place of an injured KP that we would not have coasted to a Title? I'm not arguing that Smart is better than Jrue; he would have at least taken Pritchard's and Hauser's minutes who weren't exactly lighting it up for the majority of the run anyway.

I just don't know why so many people are so quick to cast off Smart like he was this horrific teammate and selfish player. The team reached the heights it finally did in 2022 and 2023 (and 2020 with a hobbled Kemba) in part because Smart had elevated his game to become a starter and the 3rd best player on the team.

It's okay to admit that we would have won a championship this year with Smart here. It doesn't take away from anything Brad did or the achievements of this team. Trading Smart wasn't some magical spell that opened up this team to finally win. We finally had an easy path. You put together enough top end rosters and you eventually get the opportunity to break through. We destroyed the competition this year.

This year also coincided with Jayson and Jaylen (dribble the ball off my foot 8 times in a game 7) finally took things seriously and Joe was fully prepared. Imo, it's too bad Smart didn't get to experience it since he helped build the culture that this team still exudes.

[Roy H.]

You guys don't really believe this do you? You truly think just by Smart being on the roster in place of an injured KP that we would not have coasted to a Title? I'm not arguing that Smart is better than Jrue; he would have at least taken Pritchard's and Hauser's minutes who weren't exactly lighting it up for the majority of the run anyway.

I just don't know why so many people are so quick to cast off Smart like he was this horrific teammate and selfish player. The team reached the heights it finally did in 2022 and 2023 (and 2020 with a hobbled Kemba) in part because Smart had elevated his game to become a starter and the 3rd best player on the team.

It's okay to admit that we would have won a championship this year with Smart here. It doesn't take away from anything Brad did or the achievements of this team. Trading Smart wasn't some magical spell that opened up this team to finally win. We finally had an easy path. You put together enough top end rosters and you eventually get the opportunity to break through. We destroyed the competition this year.

This year also coincided with Jayson and Jaylen (dribble the ball off my foot 8 times in a game 7) finally took things seriously and Joe was fully prepared. Imo, it's too bad Smart didn't get to experience it since he helped build the culture that this team still exudes.

All we have is opinions, but Marcus had some pretty public clashes with various players and coaches.  Do we have amazing chemistry last year if one of Jrue, White and Smart aren't closing games?  Does Joe have as much flexibility is Marcus is drawing up plays or saying that Mazzulla is "rightfully" criticized? 

Last year everybody sacrificed.  To me, Marcus wasn't the type of guy who sacrificed much of anything.  He craved more shots, more spotlight, more authority.  Unfortunately, that didn't always come with more accountability or more effort.

[Vermont Green]

You guys don't really believe this do you? You truly think just by Smart being on the roster in place of an injured KP that we would not have coasted to a Title? I'm not arguing that Smart is better than Jrue; he would have at least taken Pritchard's and Hauser's minutes who weren't exactly lighting it up for the majority of the run anyway.

I just don't know why so many people are so quick to cast off Smart like he was this horrific teammate and selfish player. The team reached the heights it finally did in 2022 and 2023 (and 2020 with a hobbled Kemba) in part because Smart had elevated his game to become a starter and the 3rd best player on the team.

It's okay to admit that we would have won a championship this year with Smart here. It doesn't take away from anything Brad did or the achievements of this team. Trading Smart wasn't some magical spell that opened up this team to finally win. We finally had an easy path. You put together enough top end rosters and you eventually get the opportunity to break through. We destroyed the competition this year.

This year also coincided with Jayson and Jaylen (dribble the ball off my foot 8 times in a game 7) finally took things seriously and Joe was fully prepared. Imo, it's too bad Smart didn't get to experience it since he helped build the culture that this team still exudes.

All we have is opinions, but Marcus had some pretty public clashes with various players and coaches.  Do we have amazing chemistry last year if one of Jrue, White and Smart aren't closing games?  Does Joe have as much flexibility is Marcus is drawing up plays or saying that Mazzulla is "rightfully" criticized? 

Last year everybody sacrificed.  To me, Marcus wasn't the type of guy who sacrificed much of anything.  He craved more shots, more spotlight, more authority.  Unfortunately, that didn't always come with more accountability or more effort.

That first part is absolutely correct.  There is no definitive answer.  I was very happy to get Porzingis and 2 first round picks for Smart, Gallinari, and Muscala.  We needed a skilled big far more than we needed a third combo guard (White, Brogdon). 

But I never saw that Smart created some kind of locker room problem or chemistry problem.  My impression was that the other players loved having Smart on the team.  Smart played hard, and made winning plays.  He also had his moments when he over did it.  Brown used to dribble off his foot a lot.  Tatum has cold streaks.

MEM saw enough value in Smart that they sent out Tyus Jones and 2 first for him.  We were a championship caliber team with Smart.  Had the Brogdon/LAC trade for Porzingis gone though, we would have been a championship caliber team with Smart.  In the end, we ended up with Holiday, and better for it.

[Roy H.]

You guys don't really believe this do you? You truly think just by Smart being on the roster in place of an injured KP that we would not have coasted to a Title? I'm not arguing that Smart is better than Jrue; he would have at least taken Pritchard's and Hauser's minutes who weren't exactly lighting it up for the majority of the run anyway.

I just don't know why so many people are so quick to cast off Smart like he was this horrific teammate and selfish player. The team reached the heights it finally did in 2022 and 2023 (and 2020 with a hobbled Kemba) in part because Smart had elevated his game to become a starter and the 3rd best player on the team.

It's okay to admit that we would have won a championship this year with Smart here. It doesn't take away from anything Brad did or the achievements of this team. Trading Smart wasn't some magical spell that opened up this team to finally win. We finally had an easy path. You put together enough top end rosters and you eventually get the opportunity to break through. We destroyed the competition this year.

This year also coincided with Jayson and Jaylen (dribble the ball off my foot 8 times in a game 7) finally took things seriously and Joe was fully prepared. Imo, it's too bad Smart didn't get to experience it since he helped build the culture that this team still exudes.

All we have is opinions, but Marcus had some pretty public clashes with various players and coaches.  Do we have amazing chemistry last year if one of Jrue, White and Smart aren't closing games?  Does Joe have as much flexibility is Marcus is drawing up plays or saying that Mazzulla is "rightfully" criticized? 

Last year everybody sacrificed.  To me, Marcus wasn't the type of guy who sacrificed much of anything.  He craved more shots, more spotlight, more authority.  Unfortunately, that didn't always come with more accountability or more effort.

That first part is absolutely correct.  There is no definitive answer.  I was very happy to get Porzingis and 2 first round picks for Smart, Gallinari, and Muscala.  We needed a skilled big far more than we needed a third combo guard (White, Brogdon). 

But I never saw that Smart created some kind of locker room problem or chemistry problem.  My impression was that the other players loved having Smart on the team.  Smart played hard, and made winning plays.  He also had his moments when he over did it.  Brown used to dribble off his foot a lot.  Tatum has cold streaks.

MEM saw enough value in Smart that they sent out Tyus Jones and 2 first for him.  We were a championship caliber team with Smart.  Had the Brogdon/LAC trade for Porzingis gone though, we would have been a championship caliber team with Smart.  In the end, we ended up with Holiday, and better for it.

There were all kinds of reports about Marcus clashing with teammates.  Here's one:

Speaking to Jackie MacMullan of The Ringer, the Celtics coach [Ime Udoka] revealed what he told Smart in the aftermath.

"It was nothing I hadn't said behind closed doors," Udoka told MacMullan. "But in this case, it was a player saying it publicly. And what Marcus was saying in that particular game was totally invalid. Jayson and Jaylen were drawing a lot of doubles and were making the correct pass each time -- including to Marcus -- who couldn't make a shot that night."

Udoka followed up with Smart that there were parts of his game that he needed to fix, too, but before addressing any of that, he'd need to make things right with Tatum and Brown, who didn't appreciate the public criticism.

?You?ve gotta learn to love Smart,? Tatum told CLNS/CelticsBlog. ?Different guy, but at his core, he means well. If you spend enough time with him, you?ll learn and see that.

Jaylen Brown ?wasn?t the biggest fan? of Marcus Smart when Brown first arrived in Boston and said their relationship ?didn?t start off great.?

Brown, speaking to reporters before the Celtics-Grizzlies game Sunday, said he didn?t gravitate toward Smart initially for ?a plethora of reasons.? He explained how their bond has evolved for the better over the years.

?I couldn?t stand Marcus at first ? and I love him now,? Brown said. ?It be like that sometimes.?

Marcus Smart is screaming in the #Celtics locker room and there is a bunch of arguing going on. Smart comes out say ?y?all on that bull****? Team is imploding. Smart is in bathroom and there is still screaming coming from locker room.

Smart was a question mark in the locker room.  There's no real evidence that he would have been okay with a lesser role, even a bench role.  The best anybody can say is "maybe".

[ozgod]

I think it's important to remember that when Brad traded for KP it wasn't his original plan to trade Smart, it was to trade Brogdon. That trade fell apart because of Brogdon's health concerns and it became necessary to include Smart to make the deal work. Clearly Brad valued KP more than retaining Marcus which is what eventually happened. And we all know how much Brad cared for Smartacus, he went to the guy's wedding after he traded him, and he was clearly choked up when he announced the trade.

But say there's another universe where the Grizzlies agreed to take Brogdon. And in this universe the Bucks never traded for Dame so they kept Jrue. So we would have a starting lineup of Jaylen, Jayson, Derrick, Smart and KP, with Al, Hauser and PP coming off the bench. Would we have won the championship with that lineup? Would Smart have been such a negative that we wouldn't have been able to win it?

I can't confidently say that we would have won it, but I would still have put money on us to do so. I know Jrue was responsible for some plays that literally won us games in the playoffs but I don't think Smartacus would have been that much of a minus that he would have prevented us from winning.

The second universe is where the Grizzlies also agreed to take Brogdon, and the Bucks did trade for Dame. Would Brad have traded Smart and Timelord for Jrue? I think the answer to that would be yes. It's a no-brainer when someone of Jrue's caliber becomes available. Jrue just fits our team better. He did cost a lot more, $39m vs $18m + $10m, so you would expect him to be better. And we would have had to give up another player or more picks to get Portland to agree, but I think Brad would still have pulled the trigger.

[Roy H.]

I think it's important to remember that when Brad traded for KP it wasn't his original plan to trade Smart, it was to trade Brogdon. That trade fell apart because of Brogdon's health concerns and it became necessary to include Smart to make the deal work. Clearly Brad valued KP more than retaining Marcus which is what eventually happened. And we all know how much Brad cared for Smartacus, he went to the guy's wedding after he traded him, and he was clearly choked up when he announced the trade.

But say there's another universe where the Grizzlies agreed to take Brogdon. And in this universe the Bucks never traded for Dame so they kept Jrue. So we would have a starting lineup of Jaylen, Jayson, Derrick, Smart and KP, with Al, Hauser and PP coming off the bench. Would we have won the championship with that lineup? Would Smart have been such a negative that we wouldn't have been able to win it?

I can't confidently say that we would have won it, but I would still have put money on us to do so. I know Jrue was responsible for some plays that literally won us games in the playoffs but I don't think Smartacus would have been that much of a minus that he would have prevented us from winning.

The second universe is where the Grizzlies also agreed to take Brogdon, and the Bucks did trade for Dame. Would Brad have traded Smart and Timelord for Jrue? I think the answer to that would be yes. It's a no-brainer when someone of Jrue's caliber becomes available. Jrue just fits our team better. He did cost a lot more, $39m vs $18m + $10m, so you would expect him to be better. And we would have had to give up another player or more picks to get Portland to agree, but I think Brad would still have pulled the trigger.

For whatever it's worth, there is reporting out there that Brad's intention was to trade Marcus to Memphis regardless of the KP trade:

Kevin O?Connor on the original KP trade: ?The Celtics were going to trade Marcus Smart to the Grizzlies anyways for Tyus Jones and picks? That Smart and Tyus Jones trade was going to happen as a second deal from the Porzingis and Brogdon deal?

I don't necessarily trust the source, but I do feel pretty confident that that trade had been conceptually discussed prior to Smart being included in the KP trade.  I think the groundwork had already been laid, which why it was a pretty seamless process finding a third team to facilitate the KP trade on a moment's notice.

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't. 

[Donoghus]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

[Kernewek]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

[Donoghus]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

It was an upgrade. I can't speak to the equivalence of it.