Woj: Jrue to Celtics

[Roy H.]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

[jambr380]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Last year was a bit of a mess overall, so it's hard to blame just Marcus when there were so many other factors. Not only did Mazzulla unexpectedly take over at the last second, but his assistants were less than stellar, too. Stoudamire up and left him in the middle of the season and there was no Charles Lee or Sam Cassell. Joe also learned a lot from year one to year two. He was weird in a bad way. We also had a disgruntled Grant and Pritchard. I don't think a lot of players trusted in Joe.

Tatum and Brown have also spoken on how they thought they were just going to make the Finals every year after going in 2022. They also discussed going into last summer with a huge chip on their shoulder after how they went down against the Heat. Them finally maturing and reaching their prime can't be understated.

I firmly believe that if the 2022 roster or 2023 roster had played in this playoff run, then they would have won the Title this year. That's not to diminish what this year's team did, but they even did it without KP mostly. We had a gauntlet in 2022 and the Sixers/Heat series' from last year were more difficult than anything we faced this postseason. Embiid, Maxey, and Harden is a formidable top 3. The only superstar we saw this year was a gimpy Luka. No Giannis, Steph, KD, Playoff Jimmy

Also, check the stats. Smart actually played really well in last year's playoff run. He was hardly the problem. Like I said, I understand that Jrue is a better player, but we're lucky we got this version of him because he has been pretty mediocre in the playoffs for pretty much his whole career.

It all finally came together. We are all psyched about that. But I also know that it's difficult to win a championship and it is more likely than not that we don't win again next season.

[Roy H.]

I firmly believe that if the 2022 roster or 2023 roster had played in this playoff run, then they would have won the Title this year. That's not to diminish what this year's team did, but they even did it without KP mostly. We had a gauntlet in 2022 and the Sixers/Heat series' from last year were more difficult than anything we faced this postseason. Embiid, Maxey, and Harden is a formidable top 3. The only superstar we saw this year was a gimpy Luka. No Giannis, Steph, KD, Playoff Jimmy

I don't really agree that last year was a tough road.  We played the #3, #7 and #8 seeds.  Embiid missed Game 1 for Philly and was severely hobbled in Game 2.  Miami was missing Herro and Oladipo.  And yet, we went 11-9. 

We won this year because we played better, not because we faced inferior competition.

[Moranis]

I firmly believe that if the 2022 roster or 2023 roster had played in this playoff run, then they would have won the Title this year. That's not to diminish what this year's team did, but they even did it without KP mostly. We had a gauntlet in 2022 and the Sixers/Heat series' from last year were more difficult than anything we faced this postseason. Embiid, Maxey, and Harden is a formidable top 3. The only superstar we saw this year was a gimpy Luka. No Giannis, Steph, KD, Playoff Jimmy

I don't really agree that last year was a tough road.  We played the #3, #7 and #8 seeds.  Embiid missed Game 1 for Philly and was severely hobbled in Game 2.  Miami was missing Herro and Oladipo.  And yet, we went 11-9. 

We won this year because we played better, not because we faced inferior competition.

all true, yet it wasn't a tough road. Neither was this year, though Dallas is the best team we faced either year

[Kernewek]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

[Roy H.]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.     

[Donoghus]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

My own two cents.

Ime or not, I think they would've lost to DEN last year had they made the Finals. 

Would've made for quite the storyline heading into this year's Finals.

[Kernewek]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

[Roy H.]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

My own two cents.

Ime or not, I think they would've lost to DEN last year had they made the Finals. 

Would've made for quite the storyline heading into this year's Finals.

Denver was the big wild card, but we basically ran back the 2022 Finals team (minus Theis) and added Brogdon.  With coaching continuity and a more integrated D. White I like our chances.

[Roy H.]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

A whole thread of citations, and yet you have managed to mischaracterize my argument.  And, I don't know anything about the point of your post.  It struck me as a bit nonsensical.

[Vermont Green]

You guys don't really believe this do you? You truly think just by Smart being on the roster in place of an injured KP that we would not have coasted to a Title? I'm not arguing that Smart is better than Jrue; he would have at least taken Pritchard's and Hauser's minutes who weren't exactly lighting it up for the majority of the run anyway.

I just don't know why so many people are so quick to cast off Smart like he was this horrific teammate and selfish player. The team reached the heights it finally did in 2022 and 2023 (and 2020 with a hobbled Kemba) in part because Smart had elevated his game to become a starter and the 3rd best player on the team.

It's okay to admit that we would have won a championship this year with Smart here. It doesn't take away from anything Brad did or the achievements of this team. Trading Smart wasn't some magical spell that opened up this team to finally win. We finally had an easy path. You put together enough top end rosters and you eventually get the opportunity to break through. We destroyed the competition this year.

This year also coincided with Jayson and Jaylen (dribble the ball off my foot 8 times in a game 7) finally took things seriously and Joe was fully prepared. Imo, it's too bad Smart didn't get to experience it since he helped build the culture that this team still exudes.

All we have is opinions, but Marcus had some pretty public clashes with various players and coaches.  Do we have amazing chemistry last year if one of Jrue, White and Smart aren't closing games?  Does Joe have as much flexibility is Marcus is drawing up plays or saying that Mazzulla is "rightfully" criticized? 

Last year everybody sacrificed.  To me, Marcus wasn't the type of guy who sacrificed much of anything.  He craved more shots, more spotlight, more authority.  Unfortunately, that didn't always come with more accountability or more effort.

That first part is absolutely correct.  There is no definitive answer.  I was very happy to get Porzingis and 2 first round picks for Smart, Gallinari, and Muscala.  We needed a skilled big far more than we needed a third combo guard (White, Brogdon). 

But I never saw that Smart created some kind of locker room problem or chemistry problem.  My impression was that the other players loved having Smart on the team.  Smart played hard, and made winning plays.  He also had his moments when he over did it.  Brown used to dribble off his foot a lot.  Tatum has cold streaks.

MEM saw enough value in Smart that they sent out Tyus Jones and 2 first for him.  We were a championship caliber team with Smart.  Had the Brogdon/LAC trade for Porzingis gone though, we would have been a championship caliber team with Smart.  In the end, we ended up with Holiday, and better for it.

There were all kinds of reports about Marcus clashing with teammates.  Here's one:

Speaking to Jackie MacMullan of The Ringer, the Celtics coach [Ime Udoka] revealed what he told Smart in the aftermath.

"It was nothing I hadn't said behind closed doors," Udoka told MacMullan. "But in this case, it was a player saying it publicly. And what Marcus was saying in that particular game was totally invalid. Jayson and Jaylen were drawing a lot of doubles and were making the correct pass each time -- including to Marcus -- who couldn't make a shot that night."

Udoka followed up with Smart that there were parts of his game that he needed to fix, too, but before addressing any of that, he'd need to make things right with Tatum and Brown, who didn't appreciate the public criticism.

?You?ve gotta learn to love Smart,? Tatum told CLNS/CelticsBlog. ?Different guy, but at his core, he means well. If you spend enough time with him, you?ll learn and see that.

Jaylen Brown ?wasn?t the biggest fan? of Marcus Smart when Brown first arrived in Boston and said their relationship ?didn?t start off great.?

Brown, speaking to reporters before the Celtics-Grizzlies game Sunday, said he didn?t gravitate toward Smart initially for ?a plethora of reasons.? He explained how their bond has evolved for the better over the years.

?I couldn?t stand Marcus at first ? and I love him now,? Brown said. ?It be like that sometimes.?

Marcus Smart is screaming in the #Celtics locker room and there is a bunch of arguing going on. Smart comes out say ?y?all on that bull****? Team is imploding. Smart is in bathroom and there is still screaming coming from locker room.

Smart was a question mark in the locker room.  There's no real evidence that he would have been okay with a lesser role, even a bench role.  The best anybody can say is "maybe".

It is true that Smart has a little of that Draymond Green or something in him, where he drives his teammates crazy sometimes, but they know that he will fight to the end for them.  Brown says he loves Marcus.  Tatum said he is a different guy but you learn to love him.

I am not convinced that Marcus Smart would be a locker room problem to the extent that it would prevent a team from winning a title.  As you said, it is just our opinions.

[Kernewek]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

A whole thread of citations, and yet you have managed to mischaracterize my argument.  And, I don't know anything about the point of your post.  It struck me as a bit nonsensical.

If you think a reasonable summary of your position is a mischaracterization, that's your prerogative, but fine:

You maintained over the entire regular reason that anything that reflected positively on Mazzulla "didn't matter", because of the collapse against Miami.

That collapse would not have happened, heavily implied by you throughout the thread, if the Celtics had not fired Udoka. So, as you maintained as soon as the whistle sounded on Game 7, if the Celtics keep Udoka, we don't lose to Miami.  There were many, many references to Luke Walton.

Now, this was the same regular season performance which you are now claiming -- post-facto -- showed that there was significant improvement... improvement that didn't matter at the time, according to you. Winning changed that, and fair enough.

I can go through the thread and find the precise quotes if you think I've represented you incorrectly, but there's no serious reason to because my point is that -- in precisely the same way as the Udoka v. Mazz opinion regarding the Miami series -- there is no real way to no real way to prove that Smart instead of Holiday would have seen us bow out in the playoffs this year.

Like you said - all we have are opinions. All I did was point out an interesting equivocation between two of yours regarding elements of success & failure for two recent Celtics squads.

[Roy H.]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

A whole thread of citations, and yet you have managed to mischaracterize my argument.  And, I don't know anything about the point of your post.  It struck me as a bit nonsensical.

If you think a reasonable summary of your position is a mischaracterization, that's your prerogative, but fine:

You maintained over the entire regular reason that anything that reflected positively on Mazzulla "didn't matter", because of the collapse against Miami.

That collapse would not have happened, heavily implied by you throughout the thread, if the Celtics had not fired Udoka. So, as you maintained as soon as the whistle sounded on Game 7, if the Celtics keep Udoka, we don't lose to Miami.  There were many, many references to Luke Walton.

Now, this was the same regular season performance which you are now claiming -- post-facto -- showed that there was significant improvement... improvement that didn't matter at the time, according to you. Winning changed that, and fair enough.

I can go through the thread and find the precise quotes if you think I've represented you incorrectly, but there's no serious reason to because my point is that -- in precisely the same way as the Udoka v. Mazz opinion regarding the Miami series -- there is no real way to no real way to prove that Smart instead of Holiday would have seen us bow out in the playoffs this year.

Like you said - all we have are opinions. All I did was point out an interesting equivocation between two of yours regarding elements of success & failure for two recent Celtics squads.

Or, Joe performed poorly in the 2023 playoffs, something multiple players (Smart and Brogdon) commented on. As the team played very well throughout the regular season, fans acknowledged the signs of progress, but also took a "wait and see" approach.  When Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami, he was criticized.  Other than that, fans were mostly complimentary about his coaching.

There's nothing revisionist or inconsistent about seeing somebody fail, hoping they'll improve but being skeptical, and then congratulating them when they succeed.

[Kernewek]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

A whole thread of citations, and yet you have managed to mischaracterize my argument.  And, I don't know anything about the point of your post.  It struck me as a bit nonsensical.

If you think a reasonable summary of your position is a mischaracterization, that's your prerogative, but fine:

You maintained over the entire regular reason that anything that reflected positively on Mazzulla "didn't matter", because of the collapse against Miami.

That collapse would not have happened, heavily implied by you throughout the thread, if the Celtics had not fired Udoka. So, as you maintained as soon as the whistle sounded on Game 7, if the Celtics keep Udoka, we don't lose to Miami.  There were many, many references to Luke Walton.

Now, this was the same regular season performance which you are now claiming -- post-facto -- showed that there was significant improvement... improvement that didn't matter at the time, according to you. Winning changed that, and fair enough.

I can go through the thread and find the precise quotes if you think I've represented you incorrectly, but there's no serious reason to because my point is that -- in precisely the same way as the Udoka v. Mazz opinion regarding the Miami series -- there is no real way to no real way to prove that Smart instead of Holiday would have seen us bow out in the playoffs this year.

Like you said - all we have are opinions. All I did was point out an interesting equivocation between two of yours regarding elements of success & failure for two recent Celtics squads.

Or, Joe performed poorly in the 2023 playoffs, something multiple players (Smart and Brogdon) commented on. As the team played very well throughout the regular season, fans acknowledged the signs of progress, but also took a "wait and see" approach.  When Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami, he was criticized.  Other than that, fans were mostly complimentary about his coaching.

There's nothing revisionist or inconsistent about seeing somebody fail, hoping they'll improve but being skeptical, and then congratulating them when they succeed.

So you do agree that this Smart/Holiday discussion is as indemonstrable as Mazzulla/Udoka?

[Roy H.]

Also, as mentioned, I don't think there's any chance we would have won a title with Smart in place of Jrue and without KP.  We saw better versions of that squad fail.  People cite the "easy path" the team had this year, but the team had to get by #8 Miami the year before and couldn't.

I agree with that.

I seem to remember it being alleged that Udoka instead of Mazza would have brought us past Miami last year, so are we saying that Jrue from Smart is an equivalent upgrade to Mazz from Udoka?

Are you leaving out any improvement from Mazzulla from year one to year two?  Why?

For one, going by your posts across the Fire Joe thread through year one and two, it would appear there was no improvement in Joe?s coaching from year one to year two until after we hung Banner 18.

Im just suggesting that believing that that team would have won it all with Ime is no more or less reasonable than believing that this team wouldn?t have won it all with Smart.

Fake news.  If you're going to cite to my posts, do it accurately.   

If you want citations there?s a whole thread, but that?s not really the point of the post, which you well know.

No one?s saying you?re wrong about Smart, but as you?ve already said, there?s nothing more than vibes behind it.

A whole thread of citations, and yet you have managed to mischaracterize my argument.  And, I don't know anything about the point of your post.  It struck me as a bit nonsensical.

If you think a reasonable summary of your position is a mischaracterization, that's your prerogative, but fine:

You maintained over the entire regular reason that anything that reflected positively on Mazzulla "didn't matter", because of the collapse against Miami.

That collapse would not have happened, heavily implied by you throughout the thread, if the Celtics had not fired Udoka. So, as you maintained as soon as the whistle sounded on Game 7, if the Celtics keep Udoka, we don't lose to Miami.  There were many, many references to Luke Walton.

Now, this was the same regular season performance which you are now claiming -- post-facto -- showed that there was significant improvement... improvement that didn't matter at the time, according to you. Winning changed that, and fair enough.

I can go through the thread and find the precise quotes if you think I've represented you incorrectly, but there's no serious reason to because my point is that -- in precisely the same way as the Udoka v. Mazz opinion regarding the Miami series -- there is no real way to no real way to prove that Smart instead of Holiday would have seen us bow out in the playoffs this year.

Like you said - all we have are opinions. All I did was point out an interesting equivocation between two of yours regarding elements of success & failure for two recent Celtics squads.

Or, Joe performed poorly in the 2023 playoffs, something multiple players (Smart and Brogdon) commented on. As the team played very well throughout the regular season, fans acknowledged the signs of progress, but also took a "wait and see" approach.  When Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami, he was criticized.  Other than that, fans were mostly complimentary about his coaching.

There's nothing revisionist or inconsistent about seeing somebody fail, hoping they'll improve but being skeptical, and then congratulating them when they succeed.

So you do agree that this Smart/Holiday discussion is as indemonstrable as Mazzulla/Udoka?

"As"?  Probably not.

Every opinion or claim on here is "indemonstrable".  What's your point, other than trolling?