2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Results in OP!

[Kernewek]

One other thought on Amare -- is his best position even power forward? The Knicks dynamic we are discussing -- that year another player likely to be drafted at some point hadn't shown up yet, so it was mostly Melo - Gallo - Amare as a frontline. A defensive disaster, but a D'Antoni dream. Amare flourished offensively in that environment because Gallo and Melo gave him so much spacing to use his strength and quickness to destroy other, slower centers. Then the other guy showed up, forced him to power forward. He was still good, but not as good. Then he got hurt and his career was effectively over.

Similarly, in Phoenix -- he was at his best playing alongside guys like Hill and Marion, letting him play the 5. He's a terrible defender either way, so you might as well play him at center where he's more unguardable because he's still strong enough to bang with them but his quickness and speed advantage is next level.

So maybe he's being miscategorized a bit here. Maybe his best peaks were in run-and-gun center situations rather than as a power forward. That clashes a bit with Pau but is one way to play it.

Yeah it's definitely worth keeping in mind that the one run where the Knicks actually looked like they could do anything it was with Anthony and STAT at the four and five - just a matchup nightmare.

[Who]

One other thought on Amare -- is his best position even power forward? The Knicks dynamic we are discussing -- that year another player likely to be drafted at some point hadn't shown up yet, so it was mostly Melo - Gallo - Amare as a frontline. A defensive disaster, but a D'Antoni dream. Amare flourished offensively in that environment because Gallo and Melo gave him so much spacing to use his strength and quickness to destroy other, slower centers. Then the other guy showed up, forced him to power forward. He was still good, but not as good. Then he got hurt and his career was effectively over.

Similarly, in Phoenix -- he was at his best playing alongside guys like Hill and Marion, letting him play the 5. He's a terrible defender either way, so you might as well play him at center where he's more unguardable because he's still strong enough to bang with them but his quickness and speed advantage is next level.

So maybe he's being miscategorized a bit here. Maybe his best peaks were in run-and-gun center situations rather than as a power forward. That clashes a bit with Pau but is one way to play it.

I saw Amare's issue with moving to PF and playing next to that C (or even Shaq in PHO) were more about the Cs in those cases being paint-only players. If you have a center who can play as a stretch five (like B Lopez for Giannis) or as a high-low option like Pau can be, then Amare can continue to flourish offensively at PF.

It was more about the paint being too crowded. This was an issue with Melo as well who was more of a mid-post player who wanted to drive to the cup but the paint was too crowded with both big men on the floor. They always played best with just 2 of their Big 3 on the court rather than all 3. Spacing was too awkward.


Teams will defend Pau with their C and Amare with their PF. Amare is too athletic to choose to matchup with him with your C. Your PFs can stay in front of him better. Likewise, Pau is too big, tall and long to choose to defend him with a smaller PF instead of your bigger C. So teams will matchup that way against Moranis' Nets team.

Moranis Nets' team can choose who he wants Amare or Pau to defend on the other end of the court but he can't force the opponent to choose their defensive matchups.

He'd have to go smaller with a quicker dynamic forward to force opponents to stick their C on Amare (like Marion was able to do in PHX) or go bigger with an offensively talented center to force opponents to defend Pau with their PF.

So calling one the PF or C is more about talking about how his own team will matchup defensively rather than how the opponent team will matchup defensively. They will put their C on Pau and their PF on Amare.

[theswitch]

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

We're playing under modern rules, but does that mean teams will play a modern style?  Bosh can obviously play center against many modern teams, but would he survive against big, beefy centers who can score and rebound? 

My guess is that most successful teams on here are going to personnel that can play in a variety of ways, both power and small ball.

I agree with you generally -- but I think this point is being overthought a little bit. This isn't a league with Hakeem and Shaq and Kareem. As I think about guys like Webber and Bosh and look at the center matchups, I see a few buckets:

Guys they'd struggle with defensively who are still capable enough to guard them: Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard

Guys they'd struggle with defensively but they'd destroy on the other end: Yao Ming

Guys who would physically beat them up but aren't scorers anyways: Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

I don't know what to do with Lanier. My point here is that I'm not going to lose sleep wondering about whether Bosh and Webber can guard the Gasols or Sampson (who is lighter than they are even if taller), or Noah. Which is half of the league. I'm not going to lose sleep about Mutombo or Wallace because they aren't going to beat you anyways, and Bosh would pull them out of the paint defensively so I'd take that trade. Yao I think is trading exploitation for exploitation.

So I'm worried about Dwight, Zo, Gilmore. Maybe Lanier but he was hurt and wasn't that much bigger. 3 guys. I'd probably rather play situationally against those guys and then play to my strength against everyone else. Oh, and Gilmore is on Bosh's team. So two guys that really concern me who aren't on Bosh's team.

[Roy H.]

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

We're playing under modern rules, but does that mean teams will play a modern style?  Bosh can obviously play center against many modern teams, but would he survive against big, beefy centers who can score and rebound? 

My guess is that most successful teams on here are going to personnel that can play in a variety of ways, both power and small ball.

I agree with you generally -- but I think this point is being overthought a little bit. This isn't a league with Hakeem and Shaq and Kareem. As I think about guys like Webber and Bosh and look at the center matchups, I see a few buckets:

Guys they'd struggle with defensively who are still capable enough to guard them: Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard

Guys they'd struggle with defensively but they'd destroy on the other end: Yao Ming

Guys who would physically beat them up but aren't scorers anyways: Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

I don't know what to do with Lanier. My point here is that I'm not going to lose sleep wondering about whether Bosh and Webber can guard the Gasols or Sampson (who is lighter than they are even if taller), or Noah. Which is half of the league. I'm not going to lose sleep about Mutombo or Wallace because they aren't going to beat you anyways, and Bosh would pull them out of the paint defensively so I'd take that trade. Yao I think is trading exploitation for exploitation.

So I'm worried about Dwight, Zo, Gilmore. Maybe Lanier but he was hurt and wasn't that much bigger. 3 guys. I'd probably rather play situationally against those guys and then play to my strength against everyone else. Oh, and Gilmore is on Bosh's team. So two guys that really concern me who aren't on Bosh's team.

Right, but is there anything gained by Bosh playing center full-time, as opposed to playing him at PF next to Gilmore?

[smokeablount]

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

We're playing under modern rules, but does that mean teams will play a modern style?  Bosh can obviously play center against many modern teams, but would he survive against big, beefy centers who can score and rebound? 

My guess is that most successful teams on here are going to personnel that can play in a variety of ways, both power and small ball.

I agree with you generally -- but I think this point is being overthought a little bit. This isn't a league with Hakeem and Shaq and Kareem. As I think about guys like Webber and Bosh and look at the center matchups, I see a few buckets:

Guys they'd struggle with defensively who are still capable enough to guard them: Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard

Guys they'd struggle with defensively but they'd destroy on the other end: Yao Ming

Guys who would physically beat them up but aren't scorers anyways: Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

I don't know what to do with Lanier. My point here is that I'm not going to lose sleep wondering about whether Bosh and Webber can guard the Gasols or Sampson (who is lighter than they are even if taller), or Noah. Which is half of the league. I'm not going to lose sleep about Mutombo or Wallace because they aren't going to beat you anyways, and Bosh would pull them out of the paint defensively so I'd take that trade. Yao I think is trading exploitation for exploitation.

So I'm worried about Dwight, Zo, Gilmore. Maybe Lanier but he was hurt and wasn't that much bigger. 3 guys. I'd probably rather play situationally against those guys and then play to my strength against everyone else. Oh, and Gilmore is on Bosh's team. So two guys that really concern me who aren't on Bosh's team.

Lanier even post merger is a better scorer than everyone you listed as threatening. He is well ahead of Dwight / Ming offensively. He would be a nightmare for an offense first PF like Webber/Bosh.

Unlike your big 3 Lanier can not only muscle them up more than they’re used to, but he also shoots mid range and deep jumpers almost as well as Bosh/Webber whereas the other 3 are largely paint dwellers (less so for Zo).

He finished #4 in MVP voting in 1977 and #10 in 1978 and he was solid defensively, but it was primarily based on offense. Is your concern durability?

[theswitch]

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

We're playing under modern rules, but does that mean teams will play a modern style?  Bosh can obviously play center against many modern teams, but would he survive against big, beefy centers who can score and rebound? 

My guess is that most successful teams on here are going to personnel that can play in a variety of ways, both power and small ball.

I agree with you generally -- but I think this point is being overthought a little bit. This isn't a league with Hakeem and Shaq and Kareem. As I think about guys like Webber and Bosh and look at the center matchups, I see a few buckets:

Guys they'd struggle with defensively who are still capable enough to guard them: Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard

Guys they'd struggle with defensively but they'd destroy on the other end: Yao Ming

Guys who would physically beat them up but aren't scorers anyways: Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

I don't know what to do with Lanier. My point here is that I'm not going to lose sleep wondering about whether Bosh and Webber can guard the Gasols or Sampson (who is lighter than they are even if taller), or Noah. Which is half of the league. I'm not going to lose sleep about Mutombo or Wallace because they aren't going to beat you anyways, and Bosh would pull them out of the paint defensively so I'd take that trade. Yao I think is trading exploitation for exploitation.

So I'm worried about Dwight, Zo, Gilmore. Maybe Lanier but he was hurt and wasn't that much bigger. 3 guys. I'd probably rather play situationally against those guys and then play to my strength against everyone else. Oh, and Gilmore is on Bosh's team. So two guys that really concern me who aren't on Bosh's team.

Right, but is there anything gained by Bosh playing center full-time, as opposed to playing him at PF next to Gilmore?

I think it depends on the quality if your wings / swings and if it's worth getting an extra one onto the floor, or if the other team is doing that and is forcing you into a matchup problem because of it. You're right that the flexibility is going to be the name of the game (i.e., Kirilenko - Brand gives you the flexibility if the other team goes small, Brand - Dikembe if they go big). I suppose I'm just making an argument for why teams in this league shouldn't be afraid of going smaller if they can find the right fit rather than be scared of the size in the league.

[theswitch]

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

We're playing under modern rules, but does that mean teams will play a modern style?  Bosh can obviously play center against many modern teams, but would he survive against big, beefy centers who can score and rebound? 

My guess is that most successful teams on here are going to personnel that can play in a variety of ways, both power and small ball.

I agree with you generally -- but I think this point is being overthought a little bit. This isn't a league with Hakeem and Shaq and Kareem. As I think about guys like Webber and Bosh and look at the center matchups, I see a few buckets:

Guys they'd struggle with defensively who are still capable enough to guard them: Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard

Guys they'd struggle with defensively but they'd destroy on the other end: Yao Ming

Guys who would physically beat them up but aren't scorers anyways: Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

I don't know what to do with Lanier. My point here is that I'm not going to lose sleep wondering about whether Bosh and Webber can guard the Gasols or Sampson (who is lighter than they are even if taller), or Noah. Which is half of the league. I'm not going to lose sleep about Mutombo or Wallace because they aren't going to beat you anyways, and Bosh would pull them out of the paint defensively so I'd take that trade. Yao I think is trading exploitation for exploitation.

So I'm worried about Dwight, Zo, Gilmore. Maybe Lanier but he was hurt and wasn't that much bigger. 3 guys. I'd probably rather play situationally against those guys and then play to my strength against everyone else. Oh, and Gilmore is on Bosh's team. So two guys that really concern me who aren't on Bosh's team.

Lanier even post merger is a better scorer than everyone you listed as threatening. He is well ahead of Dwight / Ming offensively. He would be a nightmare for an offense first PF like Webber/Bosh.

He finished #4 in MVP voting in 1977 and #10 in 1978 and he was solid defensively, but it was primarily based on offense. Is your concern durability?

No diss on Lanier, I just have a less informed perspective compared to the other names. Lanier is listed at 6'11, 250. Bosh at 6'11, 235. Webber 6'10, 245. So if Bosh is being put on guys like Webber anyways, I'm not sure there's much of a physical leap to be put on Lanier. Put differently -- if Lanier is going to put up 20 on your center anyways, I'm not sure he's putting up 35 on Bosh. Maybe he's putting up 22-24 instead. But if playing Bosh at the 5 gives you a matchup advantage elsewhere, it might be worth it. I'm not saying Bosh would stop these guys, just that the offensive flexibility might be worth the hit on the other end. Compared with if Shaq were in this league, where I'd say yes if Shaq is averaging 25 against everyone else, he's putting up 40-50 a game on Bosh without sweating.

[Who]

I'm shocked that Bosh isn't in this conversation. Pau was my favorite power forward but if he's a center that's fine. I'd rather have Bosh in the modern game than Kemp. Or Blake Griffin. Probably above LMA. A slot below Brand and/or Sheed. That's where I'm at, at least.

I'd also say Rasheed is the second best defensive power forward in this draft

Yeah I think we're probably underrating Bosh in this discussion thus far, but to some degree I think it's a result of his fairly understated game - so the conversation thus far reflects that.

Understated doesn't mean he has to be rated lowly! I actually have similar feelings about Bosh as I just posted with Amare. He was the guy as a center in Toronto alongside another Italian guy (similar to Amare!). He was at his best in Miami when he was a center with Lebron, Wade, and another wing who will probably be drafted at some point.

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

I am not that high on Bosh. He had a strange unorthodox game. I am not sure it translates as well here.

That big Italian guy caused some stat inflation for Bosh in Toronto both in terms of scoring and rebounding. Partly because he didn't rebound. The scoring because he stretched the floor, forced opponents to defend Bosh with their opposing C in his most prolific scoring season.

Bosh had some difficulties as a scorer. He didn't have a great scoring arsenal. He had a lovely mid-range jump-shot and a great first step in driving to the rim. In order to maximize those two assets, he'd have the stop the ball. He was a ball-stopper. He stagnated the offense. He'd catch it and take 4-7 seconds sizing up his defend throwing some jab steps at him before trying to work out how to attack him. The reason for this is that he was miscast as a #1 scoring option and was more of a #2 or #3 scoring option but Toronto had such little scoring talent there that he was forced into being a #1 option.

So in a league like this where every team has a huge amount of scoring options, I'd expect Bosh to be a 4th or 5th option. I am not sure the exact team he is on here. But generally speaking, that is where I would place him.

Bosh had a good all-round game but not a great all-round game. He was a good passer but not a great passer. He was a good defender but not a great defender. He was a good rebounder but not a great rebounder. So the drop-off in scoring from being a 20-24ppg to being a 4th/5th option hurts because his non-scoring while good is not great.

Then the other issue is how talented the opposition PFs are. A lot of skilled quick PFs who generally punched above their weight against Bosh (in terms of respective reputations of Bosh vs opponent) while in Toronto. Mainly because Bosh was always a PF/C combo type guy. So some more natural PFs who were quicker or had more well rounded scoring games could bother him more than expected.

I loved those Toronto teams from 2006-2010. I loved Bosh. I watched them a lot.  They were a lot of fun to follow.


They had that first iteration where Bosh would start at PF next to a big bodied center (who had a midrange jump-shot) but Bosh would finish games at C next to a combo forward. So he would split time between the two spots.

Then Toronto tried to pair him with an interior PF/C who forced Bosh to spend more time at PF which was their worst big man pairing of this period. Then came Marion at PF and Bosh at C which was their best overall big man duo. Then the Italian and Bosh who were both PF/Cs and allowed Bosh to play his best offensive ball but did not provide Bosh with enough defensive or rebounding help. So while Bosh flourished individually the team did not. Marion was the best big man pairing Bosh had over that 4 year period.

All of Bosh's best offensive basketball came with him playing more center minutes and forcing the opponent to matchup against him with their center. That is where he had more of a speed & skill advantage. He would have less of an advantage at PF although was still their best option because the team was so short of shot-creation.

[theswitch]

I'm shocked that Bosh isn't in this conversation. Pau was my favorite power forward but if he's a center that's fine. I'd rather have Bosh in the modern game than Kemp. Or Blake Griffin. Probably above LMA. A slot below Brand and/or Sheed. That's where I'm at, at least.

I'd also say Rasheed is the second best defensive power forward in this draft

Yeah I think we're probably underrating Bosh in this discussion thus far, but to some degree I think it's a result of his fairly understated game - so the conversation thus far reflects that.

Understated doesn't mean he has to be rated lowly! I actually have similar feelings about Bosh as I just posted with Amare. He was the guy as a center in Toronto alongside another Italian guy (similar to Amare!). He was at his best in Miami when he was a center with Lebron, Wade, and another wing who will probably be drafted at some point.

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

I am not that high on Bosh. He had a strange unorthodox game. I am not sure it translates as well here.

That big Italian guy caused some stat inflation for Bosh in Toronto both in terms of scoring and rebounding. Partly because he didn't rebound. The scoring because he stretched the floor, forced opponents to defend Bosh with their opposing C in his most prolific scoring season.

Bosh had some difficulties as a scorer. He didn't have a great scoring arsenal. He had a lovely mid-range jump-shot and a great first step in driving to the rim. In order to maximize those two assets, he'd have the stop the ball. He was a ball-stopper. He stagnated the offense. He'd catch it and take 4-7 seconds sizing up his defend throwing some jab steps at him before trying to work out how to attack him. The reason for this is that he was miscast as a #1 scoring option and was more of a #2 or #3 scoring option but Toronto had such little scoring talent there that he was forced into being a #1 option.

So in a league like this where every team has a huge amount of scoring options, I'd expect Bosh to be a 4th or 5th option. I am not sure the exact team he is on here. But generally speaking, that is where I would place him.

Bosh had a good all-round game but not a great all-round game. He was a good passer but not a great passer. He was a good defender but not a great defender. He was a good rebounder but not a great rebounder. So the drop-off in scoring from being a 20-24ppg to being a 4th/5th option hurts because his non-scoring while good is not great.

Then the other issue is how talented the opposition PFs are. A lot of skilled quick PFs who generally punched above their weight against Bosh (in terms of respective reputations of Bosh vs opponent) while in Toronto. Mainly because Bosh was always a PF/C combo type guy. So some more natural PFs who were quicker or had more well rounded scoring games could bother him more than expected.

I loved those Toronto teams from 2006-2010. I loved Bosh. I watched them a lot.  They were a lot of fun to follow.


They had that first iteration where Bosh would start at PF next to a big bodied center but he would finish games at C next to a combo forward. So he would split time between the two spots.

Then Toronto tried to pair him with an interior PF/C who forced Bosh to spend more time at PF which was their worst big man pairing of this period. Then came Marion at PF and Bosh at C which was their best overall big man duo. Then the Italian and Bosh who were both PF/Cs and allowed Bosh to play his best offensive ball but did not provide Bosh with enough defensive or rebounding help. So while Bosh flourished individually the team did not. Marion was the best big man pairing Bosh had over that 4 year period.

All of Bosh's best offensive basketball came with him playing more center minutes and forcing the opponent to matchup against him with their center. That is where he had more of a speed & skill advantage. He would have less of an advantage at PF although was still their best option because the team was so short of shot-creation.

Ha -- I guess I'm going to spend a bunch of time defending Bosh. Didn't think that was the plan when I woke up this morning! I think your last point is my main point, which is to maximize these guys they should be playing center so long as you have other options at other positions on your roster.

I agree with you that Bosh in this league isn't a primary option -- he's also one of the few guys of the listed top 5-8 power forwards who has been fine being the 3rd option on a championship team already! So you don't have to worry about that. I'd put Rasheed generally in that same bucket too, although not to the same extent -- but he was by FG and FT attempts (tied with Chauncey but Chauncey's are deflated because Chauncey got to the line more) the third option on that championship team.

[Who]

Right, but is there anything gained by Bosh playing center full-time, as opposed to playing him at PF next to Gilmore?

Or the opposite question. What is gained by playing Bosh at PF next to Artis instead of someone else? More of a SF/PF type.

Bosh does his best work attacking the rim from face-ups. Artis is a paint clogger. Artis is the type of player Bosh has had the most trouble succeeding individually next to.

As for Artis, he is such a powerful interior force that he would fare better with someone more mobile and possibly more skilled / perimeter orientated than Bosh. That would allow more movement & less stagnant offense. More variety.

So is the issue about Artis in the way of Bosh or Bosh in the way of Artis. Would the team be better prioritizing Artis at C next to a smaller quicker PF or better off prioritizing Bosh at C and bringing Artis off the bench in order to best enable Bosh? Or best off standing still with Bosh at PF & Artis at C?

[Who]

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

Bosh used to destroy Joakim Noah.

It was always a little surprising because Noah was one of the quickest most mobile defensive centers but even with that he wasn't quick enough to stay in front of Bosh. Chicago's PFs did a better job.

Same with Orlando and Dwight Howard. Bosh had huge scoring games against Dwight (as did Dwight against Bosh) when they tried to defend Bosh with Dwight. ORL played their best defense on Bosh with their combo forwards.

[smokeablount]

Bosh is a power forward perhaps in this league, but his best position practically is center. I'd probably make that argument for most of these other guys (Brand, Webber, maybe even Aldridge). By that definition maybe Rasheed is the actual best modern day power forward here.

We're playing under modern rules, but does that mean teams will play a modern style?  Bosh can obviously play center against many modern teams, but would he survive against big, beefy centers who can score and rebound? 

My guess is that most successful teams on here are going to personnel that can play in a variety of ways, both power and small ball.

I agree with you generally -- but I think this point is being overthought a little bit. This isn't a league with Hakeem and Shaq and Kareem. As I think about guys like Webber and Bosh and look at the center matchups, I see a few buckets:

Guys they'd struggle with defensively who are still capable enough to guard them: Artis Gilmore, Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard

Guys they'd struggle with defensively but they'd destroy on the other end: Yao Ming

Guys who would physically beat them up but aren't scorers anyways: Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace

Guys they could probably get away with guarding (they'd score more than normal but it won't be enough to overcome the tradeoff on the other end or to make you lose): Marc Gasol, Ralph Sampson, Pau Gasol, Vlade Divac, Joakim Noah

I don't know what to do with Lanier. My point here is that I'm not going to lose sleep wondering about whether Bosh and Webber can guard the Gasols or Sampson (who is lighter than they are even if taller), or Noah. Which is half of the league. I'm not going to lose sleep about Mutombo or Wallace because they aren't going to beat you anyways, and Bosh would pull them out of the paint defensively so I'd take that trade. Yao I think is trading exploitation for exploitation.

So I'm worried about Dwight, Zo, Gilmore. Maybe Lanier but he was hurt and wasn't that much bigger. 3 guys. I'd probably rather play situationally against those guys and then play to my strength against everyone else. Oh, and Gilmore is on Bosh's team. So two guys that really concern me who aren't on Bosh's team.

Lanier even post merger is a better scorer than everyone you listed as threatening. He is well ahead of Dwight / Ming offensively. He would be a nightmare for an offense first PF like Webber/Bosh.

He finished #4 in MVP voting in 1977 and #10 in 1978 and he was solid defensively, but it was primarily based on offense. Is your concern durability?

No diss on Lanier, I just have a less informed perspective compared to the other names. Lanier is listed at 6'11, 250. Bosh at 6'11, 235. Webber 6'10, 245. So if Bosh is being put on guys like Webber anyways, I'm not sure there's much of a physical leap to be put on Lanier. Put differently -- if Lanier is going to put up 20 on your center anyways, I'm not sure he's putting up 35 on Bosh. Maybe he's putting up 22-24 instead. But if playing Bosh at the 5 gives you a matchup advantage elsewhere, it might be worth it. I'm not saying Bosh would stop these guys, just that the offensive flexibility might be worth the hit on the other end. Compared with if Shaq were in this league, where I'd say yes if Shaq is averaging 25 against everyone else, he's putting up 40-50 a game on Bosh without sweating.

Fair point sir. I didn’t know much about Lanier before this draft. I had to read some internet articles and ask my dad and some older guys about his game once I had my first 2 picks made.

Bosh and Webber weren’t really defensive guys. In MIA if they deviated from positions, they put birdman on the best offensive big, in Sacto it was Divac.

I’ve seen Gilmore compared to a Rudy Gobert/Shaq hybrid in this league, defensive stud with offense, but Lanier gave him fits. Based on my still limited research, he commands a defensive stalwart, not an offensive guy playing out of position.

[Who]

Artis Gilmore is an interesting player.

He was a top 10 player in the NBA for probably 5-7 years. He would have been a top 10 player in the world while in the ABA for 5 years also. That is a 10-12 year stretch where Artis was one of the top 10 players in the world.

That is one heck of a run. It starts putting him in or near the company of guys like Patrick Ewing. Now maybe Ewing peaked a bit higher as a top 5 player. Gilmore more debatable as a top 5 guy. But it is amazing just how physically imposing he was on the basketball court and skilled enough to really scare folks. His sheer size would create opportunities for him when he wasn't even playing that well.


Now there is a part of me that wonders how well he translates to the present day. I feel much more sure about him in the pre-2004 NBA. Even up to the 2010 type era he would still be largely similar.

The league may or may not end up looking like a 2010 league rather than 2023 league. Most teams have two bigs. Most teams are not super-charged in terms of three point shooters. They have a good amount but not a freakish amount. Probably Toronto and OKC have the most three point shooting.


There is some hesitation there but ... there is also this other voice saying this guy is a low key candidate for best center in the game.

For example, I believe Artis would kick Dwight Howard's butt. Just like Yao used to. Too big. Too strong. Dwight can't out-muscle him. Artis can get the shots he wants over Dwight a lot easier than Dwight can get his shots vs Artis. That is also some of the reason why I am unsure about Dwight in this format.

And we just saw Jokic lead DEN to the title while playing drop coverage. While sitting back closer to the paint and shutting off the paint to drivers. Rather than chasing shooters down and covering ball-handlers out on the perimeter. Artis can do likewise and do it a 7-2, long and can jump.

[smokeablount]

This fantasy draft is epic. In fact, I wrote a screenplay and sold the rights to Warner Bros.

Catch “Space Jam 3: God Jam It” on the big screen in the summer of 2024.

[gouki88]

I’m happy for Kernewek to open things whenever he sees this. The two-a-days can be a decent marathon