Report: Lillard requests trade

[celticsclay]

I find it strange how against the Miami offer people are when no other team is offering anything that different / better than what Miami are.

Miami have made a good offer. It is not a great offer. But it is a good offer that allows Portland to rebuild properly. To move on from Dame. To pick up some future assets. To get a good player in Herro and maybe C Martin as well.

1) we don’t actually know any of these offers besides Miami (and we only know that because they have such limited assets it is the only possible package
2) other teams are not gonna make their best offer when he is threatening to be disgruntled and or sit out training camp (that is kind of the whole point of what we are all upset about)

[celticsclay]

If Lillard's agent is calling teams to warn against trading for him, as a way to force his way to Miami, can the commissioner step in and fine Lillard and his agent? Better yet, could the commissioner veto a trade of Lillard to Miami because of what is essentially is becoming collusion?

It is clearly collusion or in violation of the CBA. If the commish doesn't step in, it sets a bad precedent for the league.

I agree. I’m not generally pro owner but this is nonsense. You signed the super max Dame can’t force your franchise into a horrible deal after that

Isn’t this the main method Lakers get who ever they want ..players forcing their way to LA and open door with no scruples

This narrative for the lakers getting all these players is pretty weird to me. In the last 15 years pretty much every big name free agent has chosen to sign with other teams outside of Lebron and they had tons of guys they wanted. The trades for stars were not like amazing deals for them either. They gave up a ton to get Davis (they are often criticized for giving up way too much). The Westbrook trade was obviously a bad trade for them. If the heat were giving up lonzo ball (not injured) Brandon Ingram, Josh hart a number 4 overall pick and multiple other first rounders and swaps people would be a lot less upset.

Yeah, that bugs me too.

LAL couldn't get any of the FAs they wanted in the post Shaq years. They wanted Amare. They wanted Yao Ming. I forget who else. They wanted guys in trades. They wanted KG. They came up empty time and time again.

When Kobe's career was ending, they went after max free agents year after year. Again, coming up empty every time. Aldridge was one of them. They couldn't even get L Aldridge.

LeBron is the only major FA to go there in 25 years. And he only went there because they had enough trade assets to get a 2nd superstar alongside him from years of tanking.

Here is a summary of just some of the bad years before Lebron https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nba/news/lebron-james-lakers-free-agency-news-rumors-roster-contract-magic-johnson/c03vqu3myif51cjzvlith9d1x

They wanted George and Leonard and Lowry. They also badly wanted Dwight Howard to stay and he signed elsewhere. This could change at some point but the idea the lakers have got a ton of free agents in the last 15 years is kind of crazy. We have actually done way better during this time period getting highly sought after free agents like hayward, Horford and Kemba.

[Who]

I find it strange how against the Miami offer people are when no other team is offering anything that different / better than what Miami are.

Miami have made a good offer. It is not a great offer. But it is a good offer that allows Portland to rebuild properly. To move on from Dame. To pick up some future assets. To get a good player in Herro and maybe C Martin as well.

1) we don’t actually know any of these offers besides Miami (and we only know that because they have such limited assets it is the only possible package
2) other teams are not gonna make their best offer when he is threatening to be disgruntled and or sit out training camp (that is kind of the whole point of what we are all upset about)

Even if not willing to give their best offer, they still have to outbid Miami which even that they are seemingly unwilling to do.

It does not speak well to how highly teams value Lillard due to his advanced age (33yo) and huge contract.

I just do not believe there is much of a market there. Period. Not because of Miami but because Lillard is old (33yo), small (6-2) and has a huge contract ($50-60mil a year next 3yrs).

[celticsclay]

I find it strange how against the Miami offer people are when no other team is offering anything that different / better than what Miami are.

Miami have made a good offer. It is not a great offer. But it is a good offer that allows Portland to rebuild properly. To move on from Dame. To pick up some future assets. To get a good player in Herro and maybe C Martin as well.

1) we don’t actually know any of these offers besides Miami (and we only know that because they have such limited assets it is the only possible package
2) other teams are not gonna make their best offer when he is threatening to be disgruntled and or sit out training camp (that is kind of the whole point of what we are all upset about)

Even if not willing to give their best offer, they still have to outbid Miami which even that they are seemingly unwilling to do.

It does not speak well to how highly teams value Lillard due to his advanced age (33yo) and huge contract.

I just do not believe there is much of a market there. Period. Not because of Miami but because Lillard is old (33yo), small (6-2) and has a huge contract ($50-60mil a year next 3yrs).

What you are saying doesn’t make a whole lot of logical sense to me. Why would a team want to beat Miami’s offer if they are worrying about a holdout disgruntled player? We literally have a very recent example of this in our own team history. We were extremely interested in Anthony Davis and were prepared to offer very significant pieces to get him. Once his dad said he wouldn’t be happy here along with Davis and his agents we no longer wanted to make an offer. You seem to be totally ignoring the concept of someone tanking their own trade value by saying they will only be happy playing for one team

[theswitch]

I find it strange how against the Miami offer people are when no other team is offering anything that different / better than what Miami are.

Miami have made a good offer. It is not a great offer. But it is a good offer that allows Portland to rebuild properly. To move on from Dame. To pick up some future assets. To get a good player in Herro and maybe C Martin as well.

1) we don’t actually know any of these offers besides Miami (and we only know that because they have such limited assets it is the only possible package
2) other teams are not gonna make their best offer when he is threatening to be disgruntled and or sit out training camp (that is kind of the whole point of what we are all upset about)

Even if not willing to give their best offer, they still have to outbid Miami which even that they are seemingly unwilling to do.

It does not speak well to how highly teams value Lillard due to his advanced age (33yo) and huge contract.

I just do not believe there is much of a market there. Period. Not because of Miami but because Lillard is old (33yo), small (6-2) and has a huge contract ($50-60mil a year next 3yrs).

What you are saying doesn’t make a whole lot of logical sense to me. Why would a team want to beat Miami’s offer if they are worrying about a holdout disgruntled player? We literally have a very recent example of this in our own team history. We were extremely interested in Anthony Davis and were prepared to offer very significant pieces to get him. Once his dad said he wouldn’t be happy here along with Davis and his agents we no longer wanted to make an offer. You seem to be totally ignoring the concept of someone tanking their own trade value by saying they will only be happy playing for one team

It's a bit different, no? Kawhi and Anthony Davis had upcoming contract expirations if I remember correctly, so them not wanting to play in certain places had more dramatic scare value. I don't see that with Lillard. Does a team really think that if they trade for him, Lillard is going to pout for three years and waste away the last bit of his prime? Especially if he's on a contending team? That just seems like a preposterous concern to me -- it's not Lillard's vibe and it wouldn't make any sense for him to do that. With Portland he has some leverage because of his historical credibility with the team and city. With a new team...they'd just tell him he's out of luck and he can either show up or waste his career away. He's going to play and be fine.

[Who]

I find it strange how against the Miami offer people are when no other team is offering anything that different / better than what Miami are.

Miami have made a good offer. It is not a great offer. But it is a good offer that allows Portland to rebuild properly. To move on from Dame. To pick up some future assets. To get a good player in Herro and maybe C Martin as well.

1) we don’t actually know any of these offers besides Miami (and we only know that because they have such limited assets it is the only possible package
2) other teams are not gonna make their best offer when he is threatening to be disgruntled and or sit out training camp (that is kind of the whole point of what we are all upset about)

Even if not willing to give their best offer, they still have to outbid Miami which even that they are seemingly unwilling to do.

It does not speak well to how highly teams value Lillard due to his advanced age (33yo) and huge contract.

I just do not believe there is much of a market there. Period. Not because of Miami but because Lillard is old (33yo), small (6-2) and has a huge contract ($50-60mil a year next 3yrs).

What you are saying doesn’t make a whole lot of logical sense to me. Why would a team want to beat Miami’s offer if they are worrying about a holdout disgruntled player? We literally have a very recent example of this in our own team history. We were extremely interested in Anthony Davis and were prepared to offer very significant pieces to get him. Once his dad said he wouldn’t be happy here along with Davis and his agents we no longer wanted to make an offer. You seem to be totally ignoring the concept of someone tanking their own trade value by saying they will only be happy playing for one team

Okay, so say the value of the player is 10/10.

Miami's offer is 5/10.

Even if the player tanks his value and the team can no longer get 10/10, they should still be able to get solid offers at 6/10 or 7/10 but they are not materializing.

I mean Lillard is available even cheaper than he would be normally if his value is indeed surpressed which I am not sure about give his age, size and contract.

None of these teams are coming out making offers. They should be asking for permission to talk to Damian Lillard. To sound him out and see where everything stands. Have a basic offer on the table for POR to show they are serious but are only willing the trade after talking to Lillard. No signs of anyone doing this.

You don't walk away from a great deal just because of preferences and posturing. You pursue it to its furthest point before deciding to give up.

These teams aren't doing that. They are giving up before the chase has even started.

[Who]

It's a bit different, no? Kawhi and Anthony Davis had upcoming contract expirations if I remember correctly, so them not wanting to play in certain places had more dramatic scare value. I don't see that with Lillard. Does a team really think that if they trade for him, Lillard is going to pout for three years and waste away the last bit of his prime? Especially if he's on a contending team? That just seems like a preposterous concern to me -- it's not Lillard's vibe and it wouldn't make any sense for him to do that. With Portland he has some leverage because of his historical credibility with the team and city. With a new team...they'd just tell him he's out of luck and he can either show up or waste his career away. He's going to play and be fine.

Its kinda like when Kobe demanded a trade from the Lakers in 2007 or 2008, whatever it was. There was no way Kobe was sit out games once the summer ended. He is too competitive. He can't sit out. He was always coming back once training camp started or the regular season started.

They just had to wait him out and let him calm down.

I agree, Lillard seems made of the same ilk. He wants to play. He wants to compete. He won't be happy sitting out.

[Vermont Green]

I don't see how MIA can make a fair offer unless they include Adebayo, which apparently, they won't.  If I was POR, I would not settle for Tyler Herro and whatever not named Bam, no matter how many picks they throw in.  If they can't get MIA to include Adebayo (Herro and Adebayo plus picks is fair), I go back to Lillard and tell him they tried with MIA, but it didn't work.  Either add to you list of teams or suit up because we are not going to trade you to MIA for a bad deal.

I see them as still trying to do their due diligence with MIA.  That is fine.  That needs to play out.  They can indulge Lillard and fully exhaust any possibility with MIA.  But if that does not result in a fair deal, so be it.  And I can understand why no other teams aren't really engaging until the MIA thing has played out.  No reason to.

[Neurotic Guy]

If Lillard's agent is calling teams to warn against trading for him, as a way to force his way to Miami, can the commissioner step in and fine Lillard and his agent? Better yet, could the commissioner veto a trade of Lillard to Miami because of what is essentially is becoming collusion?

It is clearly collusion or in violation of the CBA. If the commish doesn't step in, it sets a bad precedent for the league.

Very interested to understand how an agent’s conversation on behalf of his client could be considered collusion or a violation of the CBA in the fashion you’re describing.

Is it any different from Kristaps‘s agent saying he wouldn’t work out for the Process Sixers?

I think both situations are potentially collusive.  An agent/player conspires with a desired team by agreeing to avoid workouts with other teams so the desired team can select the player…. sounds like it creates an unfair competitive advantage for one team.   An agent/player conspires with a desired team to have the player demand a trade exclusively to that team while the team creates a low-value trade - preserving team’s essential core -  knowing the agent is eliminating competition from every other team by implying the player will be disengaged and a disruptive element if they trade for him. Yeah, that’s collusive and seems to creat a wrong/unfair competitive advantage for one team.

Potentially collusive, sure, but Collusion is a two-way street. If Lillard is saying "I want to go to Miami" and his agent is telling other teams "guys Dame really wants Miami" there's no collusion there - the agent is doing his job.

Remember, anything Woj writes, tweets, or shared is written, tweeted or shared with an eye towards forwarding his agenda, namely that teams and agents will continue to call him first when it comes to breaking news. When we read Woj's paragraph here, we should be mindful of that:

As Cronin explores the broader landscape, Lillard's agent, Aaron Goodwin, has been calling prospective trade partners and warning against trading for his client, team executives told ESPN. Goodwin is telling organizations outside of Miami that trading for Lillard is trading for an unhappy player. As interference goes, this is a time-honored agent maneuver to depress offers and clear a path to a predetermined destination.

bolded emphasis mine, obviously.

Now, let's look at what the agent had to say about it:

"I do what I should for my client. Some teams I did call. Other teams have called me. It's a respectful relationship with most teams. Truthfully, he wants to play in Miami. Period."

Now, the natural next question is whether we would be hearing about this at all if Aaron Goodwin was a CAA agent (the organisation that reps Woj), rather than the head of his own agency. I suspect not.

Well, potentially collusive is about all you’ll ever get from a fan’s perspective. I don’t know if there was an actual conspiracy involving player/agent and Heat but I do know there is the appearance of one. Additionally, even if there was no coordinated plan, the result is an advantage for one team being able to offer an uninspiring package for a top 10-15 player without worry that a better offer will emerge from another team.  If not active collusion, certainly at least a manipulation by player and agent to limit the leverage of player’s current team and allow future team to safely stick to a low ball offer.

[Who]

Any word on James Harden?

What type of trade value is he attracting?

He would seem comparable to Lillard in terms of stature, age and contract size.

The trade market just doesn't seem to be that good for any of these guys. They are too old and too highly paid. Teams are willing to give up quasi-stars for them but not legit stars. Okay picks / prospects but no high end picks / prospects.

Similar with Bradley Beal.

[Who]

I don't see how MIA can make a fair offer unless they include Adebayo, which apparently, they won't.  If I was POR, I would not settle for Tyler Herro and whatever not named Bam, no matter how many picks they throw in.  If they can't get MIA to include Adebayo (Herro and Adebayo plus picks is fair), I go back to Lillard and tell him they tried with MIA, but it didn't work.  Either add to you list of teams or suit up because we are not going to trade you to MIA for a bad deal.

I see them as still trying to do their due diligence with MIA.  That is fine.  That needs to play out.  They can indulge Lillard and fully exhaust any possibility with MIA.  But if that does not result in a fair deal, so be it.  And I can understand why no other teams are really engaging until the MIA thing has played out.  No reason to.

I have the opposite viewpoint on that.

If I am a 3rd team and I want Lillard, if I do not express my interest and show my willingness to offer a better deal than Miami is ... I fear POR gives up and sends Lillard to Miami.

I feel my only chance of landing Lillard is showing I am willing to beat MIA's offer. And that can be contigent on talking to Lillard and getting his buy-in. But I need to show my availability and willingness to surpass MIA's offer. Otherwise, there may be no opportunity down the road.

[Vermont Green]

I don't see how MIA can make a fair offer unless they include Adebayo, which apparently, they won't.  If I was POR, I would not settle for Tyler Herro and whatever not named Bam, no matter how many picks they throw in.  If they can't get MIA to include Adebayo (Herro and Adebayo plus picks is fair), I go back to Lillard and tell him they tried with MIA, but it didn't work.  Either add to you list of teams or suit up because we are not going to trade you to MIA for a bad deal.

I see them as still trying to do their due diligence with MIA.  That is fine.  That needs to play out.  They can indulge Lillard and fully exhaust any possibility with MIA.  But if that does not result in a fair deal, so be it.  And I can understand why no other teams are really engaging until the MIA thing has played out.  No reason to.

I have the opposite viewpoint on that.

If I am a 3rd team and I want Lillard, if I do not express my interest and show my willingness to offer a better deal than Miami is ... I fear POR gives up and sends Lillard to Miami.

I feel my only chance of landing Lillard is showing I am willing to beat MIA's offer. And that can be contigent on talking to Lillard and getting his buy-in. But I need to show my availability and willingness to surpass MIA's offer. Otherwise, there may be no opportunity down the road.

I agree that teams will reach out, express interest, I am sure POR has a very good idea of what teams would be interested if Lillard were to expand his list.  But I can't see anyone getting very specific or serious in these discussions at this point.  That is what I mean by engaging.  Engaging in serious, specific discussions of deals.

[Kernewek]

I find it strange how against the Miami offer people are when no other team is offering anything that different / better than what Miami are.

Miami have made a good offer. It is not a great offer. But it is a good offer that allows Portland to rebuild properly. To move on from Dame. To pick up some future assets. To get a good player in Herro and maybe C Martin as well.

That’s only because Dame has screwed them over and is essentially extorting them to trade to a team that simply doesn’t have the assets to get him, but May now because he’s depressing the market. That’s why people are mad. He’s being a selfish hypocrite and trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

Ole Softy Silver needs to step in. This has gone far beyond what any other star has done, and it’s setting an awful precedent that is terrible for the league.

At least Dame’s legacy and reputation are starting to be affected, but I’m not sure how other owners aren’t revolting at this right now.

How do we square this with Woj's assertion that this is "a time-honored agent maneuver to depress offers and clear a path to a predetermined destination"?

[SHAQATTACK]

He wants a trade 

Just not to Boston 

[Vermont Green]

He wants a trade 

Just not to Boston 

That is not really fair.  Right now he doesn't want anywhere but MIA.  Not NKY, BKN, LAL, GSW, not any of the other popular destinations other than MIA.  No one knows if BOS would be on the expanded list (if there ever is an expanded list).

I think this comes down to Adebayo or not.  Any package from MIA that is based on Tyler Herro plus whatever, is a losing deal for POR.  There isn't any number of MIA picks that can make it a winning deal for POR.  MIA probably is not going to offer Adebayo so there you go.  Not sure what POR will do.  Not sure what there is to talk about in Vegas, other than POR showing Lillard that they are trying.

Reminds me of the Meatloaf song:

Baby, we can talk all night
But that ain't gettin us nowhere
I told you everything I possibly can
There's nothing left inside of here