NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective

[gouki88]

Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.

Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"

Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

That's NBA champion Jeff Green to you and me.

Would be 2x if we were healthy in 2011

[Phantom255x]

It wasn't just Jokic, but the Nuggets got great contributions from Gordon, Braun and MPJ (who can play the 4)

If this team is relying again on just Horford/Timelord next year (and maybe G-Will if we keep him) that's just not going to cut it. Timelord's too injury prone and Horford turns 37. Horford can still be a great role player, but if they're relying on him to be our everygame starter and playing heavy minutes, then yikes. CBS has to make a move or two to bolster the frontcourt. You can keep Horford, Timelord and even G-Will but you need another big in the mix. And no, Kornet isn't that. Griffin I guess is fine to keep as like the 5th big if he wants to stay on the minimum.

Denver was just taller and straight up tougher than Miami because of the size and it showed.

[Larry for 3]

Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.

Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"

Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

And 1 team has a big guy and a guard and a multiple MVP and the other has questions whether their 2 best players can even play together for years. Also The juxtaposition of brown and murrary is so striking.  1 guy has a game 4 where he has 12 assists and zero turnovers and the other dribbles it off his leg more times than I can count. Murray is so smooth. I’m jealous.

These hot take "what have you done for me lately" narratives are so funny to read. All year Brown was an all-nba player and multiple times all-star.

Murray has had questions all year and worse stats across the board. But now....according to Celtics fans he's better...

You want stats — here’s a stat—

Jamal Murray has averaged 25.0 points, 6.3 assists and 5.0 rebounds in 53 games in the playoffs in his career.

[Vermont Green]

It is definitely hard not to look at the Nuggets and compare them to the Celtics.  The main difference is obvious, they have Jokic and he was healthy (as opposed to Giannis and Embiid).  He is a dominant player and takes so much pressure off all of the other players.  So much talk of how the game has changed but size does still matter.

I also think that Murray is a really good complementary player.  Handles the ball well, can shoot, has high level talent, exactly what you want opposite Jokic.  The rest of the team is nothing special but it is well balanced.  And you can see that there is understanding and acceptance of their roles. 

As to the coach, I don't know how much that matters.  It is hard to tell just watching if the coaching was good or not.  The results were good, so you assume the coaching was good.  Certainly there has been continuity (Malone has been in Denver 8 seasons), something the Celtics have not had. 

There is not one formula for a title team.  GSW won with their top players being wings and guards.  I do think that is more the exception though.  More of the better teams have a big as one of their top players.  In any case, the Celtics roster is not well balanced.  The talent (and contracts) leans heavily to guards and wings.  That does not mean that I think Tatum and Brown together are a problem, just that roster balance a weakness.

The impact of the lack of coaching continuity is harder to decipher but title teams tend to grow into that, both coaches and players.  I believe it takes more than one season to fully adopt offensive and defensive schemes.  It also tends to take a couple of iteration of bringing in role players to get just the right combination.

Hopefully we will have some level of coaching continuity going forward.  We are bringing in a bunch of new assistants so that is a step back of sorts but we need to build on what we can.  And I expect some roster changes around the edges to bolter the PF and C positions, but not major roster changes (such as trading Brown).  I don't expect a trade of Brown but I think it is possible.

[PAOBoston]

My conclusion is if the Cs were to pull their heads out of their own butts they had a real good chance at winning a title this year. Not sure if they would have beaten Denver but they really should have made it to the finals. Feels like such a lost opportunity.

My opinion is they should not break up the Js. They can move all the periphery pieces around them any way they like but I don’t think those two are the problem (at least yet). They are 25 and 26 and about to enter their primes when stars usually start winning.

The biggest issue on the team outside of coaching (which management seems to be trying to rectify already this offseason) is the front court depth and lack of viable bench players. Williams is often hurt and Horford cannot beat Father Time. They have a glut of guards so making a move for a younger more durable 4/5 type is a necessary need imo. Maybe not a KAT or anything like that but they need to get more production/health out of that group. Additionally, if the coach can’t trust the younger bench guys like Hauser/Williams/Pritchard, they need to go out and sign some veteran guys who will know their role. Can’t go through an entire season and playoffs basically playing 7 guys.

[cman88]

Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.

Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"

Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

Huh? Besides Horford and Brogdon Celtics core is one of the youngest in the league. Smart, Tatum, brown, Williams, grant all drafted guys in their 20's still. this is a really really bad take. And Tatum is arguably top 5 in the league and is still 25. Let's not forget Jocic is 28

No one in the world would argue Celtics are built around an ageing core..

If you want to talk an old core that has questions look of Milwaukee with Middleton/holiday or sixers with harden.

Haha. “Besides 2 of the top 6 rotation, the core is young!”. The Williams’ are hardly reliable - one is always injured, the other does not play and might leave imminently. Smart and White are both 29 and likely have no improvement left.

Nobody said ageing core. Reading comprehension is important. Our reliance on ageing, declining players is pretty obviously an issue.

Jokic (not sure why you insist on disrespecting him by misspelling his name) is 28, but has no reliance on athleticism. Not really a likely candidate for declining soon.

Of Denver’s top 7 in the playoffs, only KCP is older than Smart & White. None older than Brogdon, none even close to Horford.

Not sure why you’re bringing up other Eastern teams that are worse than us.

You literally said Denver's entire core is young while Celtics is ageing. What do you consider a teams core? Besides Horford/brogdon everyone is either in their prime or about to enter it.

If I just agree that Denver is amazing and Celtics roster of majority players 29 and younger with your 2 stars 25 and 26 is poorly constructed. What is your solution?

I brought up other teams in the East because that is our competition. And they are all ageing their "core" is built of guys who are about to decline

My point still stands. Denver stuck with Murray and Jokic(I honestly didn't know how to spell it) and just added some players around them and finally broke through to a championship.

[cman88]

Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.

Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"

Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

And 1 team has a big guy and a guard and a multiple MVP and the other has questions whether their 2 best players can even play together for years. Also The juxtaposition of brown and murrary is so striking.  1 guy has a game 4 where he has 12 assists and zero turnovers and the other dribbles it off his leg more times than I can count. Murray is so smooth. I’m jealous.

These hot take "what have you done for me lately" narratives are so funny to read. All year Brown was an all-nba player and multiple times all-star.

Murray has had questions all year and worse stats across the board. But now....according to Celtics fans he's better...

You want stats — here’s a stat—

Jamal Murray has averaged 25.0 points, 6.3 assists and 5.0 rebounds in 53 games in the playoffs in his career.

Yes, he's been a great playoff performer and pretty poor regular season performer.

Yet the team stuck with him and is rewarded with a championship I don't get what is so hard to get.

Except for the crowd that wants massive changes anytime the Celtics don't win the championship.

[cman88]

My conclusion is if the Cs were to pull their heads out of their own butts they had a real good chance at winning a title this year. Not sure if they would have beaten Denver but they really should have made it to the finals. Feels like such a lost opportunity.

My opinion is they should not break up the Js. They can move all the periphery pieces around them any way they like but I don’t think those two are the problem (at least yet). They are 25 and 26 and about to enter their primes when stars usually start winning.

The biggest issue on the team outside of coaching (which management seems to be trying to rectify already this offseason) is the front court depth and lack of viable bench players. Williams is often hurt and Horford cannot beat Father Time. They have a glut of guards so making a move for a younger more durable 4/5 type is a necessary need imo. Maybe not a KAT or anything like that but they need to get more production/health out of that group. Additionally, if the coach can’t trust the younger bench guys like Hauser/Williams/Pritchard, they need to go out and sign some veteran guys who will know their role. Can’t go through an entire season and playoffs basically playing 7 guys.

Celtics had one of the most talented rosters in the league. Their problem isn't a talent problem (although they need to figure out the Horford situation) it is a mental and coaching problem.

They play below their talent level so often and don't play as a team. Standing around chucking up 3's is easy to defend.

You watch Denver or Miami (with lesser talent) and they are playing as a unit. Not individual players. But IMO a lot of that is coaching.

They did it October - All-star break. Crisp ball movement leading to open 3's. Then for some reason reverted back to walking ball up the court dribbling for 15 seconds and shooting. 3.

Hopefully they can be coached out of that. Or to keep good habits

[Who]

1: Our frontcourt wasn't good enough this year and it is the biggest need going forward. Moving away from double big meant our size took a big hit and the defense wasn't special anymore. On offense, the fact that our bigs couldn't score consistently inside meant our zone attack was limited and predictable. Aaron Gordon was destroying mismatches inside, shooting an occasional 3, and constantly moving off ball just showed how much we need a guy like that since Horford obviously can't do it anymore. I also won't excuse the staff or players for not looking for Rob more inside because he had a lot of success scoring on Bam. This Denver team always found the mismatch and made the right pass. Why is it so hard for our players to do the same? Are they even looking inside? Because a lot of times it didn't even seem like they were bothering, or maybe they just suck at passing.

Yeah, I am more and more worried about our frontcourt. Horford will be another year older. Timelord shows no signs of being able to stay healthy. I don't trust either one of these guys.

I trust Horford more than I trust Timelord. I'd love to trade Timelord for someone we can depend on. He is good when healthy but too many missed games, too many games when available where he is limited playing himself back into shape. Never know when he is going to be available or out.

[Who]

5: Having a lead ballhandling guard that teams actually respect offensively is so needed for this team. Smart is too inconsistent with his outside shot and his only other move is posting up a smaller guard inside. White is just too deferential at times and I wonder if he just doesn't have the aggression to demand the ball. I thought our only chance of coming back in game 7 was to give the ball to White, but a few Brown TOs later, the game was over. Why didn't they call more plays for White? Or, why didn't he demand the ball?

It has been great watching Jamal Murray for the Nuggets on this playoff run. He has been terrific at the point of attack. A great example as to what Boston is missing in their offense.

How much better would we be with a player like him rather than Jaylen Brown?

Also, as you said, how much Smart & D White hurt our us with their inability to provide enough of a scoring threat / playmaking threat at PG. Yes, we benefit defensively from our big defensive combo guards but they hurt us on offense. Our wings, specifically Jaylen, just aren't good enough ball-handlers & playmakers to make low yield offensive PGs work.

There was some hope Brogdon could give us something like J Murray-lite. Not the 25-5 threat but a 15-5 threat. There were times when Brogdon gave us that but even when he did it never felt like it came within the flow of offense. Not quite a his turn / my turn situation but closer to that than scoring / creating while playing alongside the Jays and diversifying the offensive alongside them. That was disappointing. A potent player but never quite fit in as well as hoped.

[Vermont Green]

These hot take "what have you done for me lately" narratives are so funny to read. All year Brown was an all-nba player and multiple times all-star.

Murray has had questions all year and worse stats across the board. But now....according to Celtics fans he's better...

You want stats — here’s a stat—

Jamal Murray has averaged 25.0 points, 6.3 assists and 5.0 rebounds in 53 games in the playoffs in his career.

I think it is a fair debate to compare Murray and Brown.  For the 2016 draft, Murray was the player that I thought the Celtics would take.  So two players, same draft class, same position (more or less), both now "Robins" on good teams, of course there are going to be comparisons.

Murray missed an entire season due to injury (2021-22) but if you look at the last 3 seasons for each (skipping the missed season for Murray), where both played a little under 200 games, it is not surprising.  Brown has more points, rebounds, and turnovers while Murray has more assists and a better 3P% and FT%.  I would say that Brown is the better and more versatile defender.  Murray has been clutch though in the playoffs.  Seems to have that calm, level demeanor.  I think playing with Jokic helps with that. 

I would say that both players are legit all star level players.  Brown probably got a little ahead of himself being named to second team all-NBA (implying a top 10 player) but I think it is fair to rank Brown ahead of Murray based on resume to date.  But Murray clearly was better than Brown in this playoff run.  More points (26.1 to 22.7), more assists (7.1 to 3.4), and fewer turnovers (2.5 to 3.3).  Murray actually had slightly more rebounds too (5.7 to 5.6).  Both had decent TS% (58.6% to 57.8%).

Recency bias will have an impact on the perceived relative value of two but Murray's stock clearly rose in this playoff run and Brown's probably went down a little (relative to second team All-NBA).

[Who]

Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.

I kept hearing the announcers say this, JVG and Co., and I do not understand it at all.

DEN were an up and coming team in 2019 and 2020 (not a title contender, up and comer) and only starting to come into their own in 2021 as a legit title contender when they got devastated by injuries to Jamal Murray and later MPJ.

There was never a period where a healthy mature DEN team was failing to get the job done. The only period that happened was an injury hit team that did not get the chance to show just how dominant they were. And they were dominant in 2021. They had one of the best, if not the best, point differentials in the league when their big three was on the floor together. They were a legit contender when J Murray got hurt.

This year is the 1st year they have had a chance to make a playoff run with their big three in tact and with Jokic at MVP level. This is not a case of a team failing for a long time, staying patient for a long time and getting it done. This is case of a team getting devastated by injuries to their 2nd best and 3rd best players, waiting for them to get healthy and getting it done 1st year out once they returned.

[Who]

Horford = 37 years old

Brogdon = 30 years old
Smart = 29 years old
D White = 29yo next month

Jaylen = 27 years old sorry, 26yo. 27 next season.

Timelord = injury prone 25yo

Tatum = 25yo
G Will = 24yo


So all three of our guards are older vets at this point - 29/30 years old. Horford is clearly an old timer / retirement candidate.

Timelord is young at 25 but injury prone and misses games like an old player does. He also may fail to have a long career due to injuries or see a major drop-off at a young age due to injuries.

Jaylen will be smack bam in his prime at 27 next year.

Tatum is entering his prime at 25yo. G Will also about to enter his prime at 24 going on 25 next season.


So out of our top 8 guys = 4 of them are either around 30yo or in their late 30s. Horford is only a short term fixture. The combo guards are all medium term fixtures. None are long term fixtures. Too old.

Of our other 4 guys = G Will may leave as a FA next month. Rob Williams is injury prone and may need replacing in the near future. That leaves 2 guys: Tatum & Jaylen.

Now luckily, they are our two best players so that is awesome. They give us a good foundation to keep a strong competitive team on the floor for the next 7-10 years. The rest of the team around them however will see major changes in the next few years. This is not a young group around them.

[Who]

My conclusion is if the Cs were to pull their heads out of their own butts they had a real good chance at winning a title this year. Not sure if they would have beaten Denver but they really should have made it to the finals. Feels like such a lost opportunity.

My opinion is they should not break up the Js. They can move all the periphery pieces around them any way they like but I don’t think those two are the problem (at least yet). They are 25 and 26 and about to enter their primes when stars usually start winning.

The biggest issue on the team outside of coaching (which management seems to be trying to rectify already this offseason) is the front court depth and lack of viable bench players. Williams is often hurt and Horford cannot beat Father Time. They have a glut of guards so making a move for a younger more durable 4/5 type is a necessary need imo. Maybe not a KAT or anything like that but they need to get more production/health out of that group. Additionally, if the coach can’t trust the younger bench guys like Hauser/Williams/Pritchard, they need to go out and sign some veteran guys who will know their role. Can’t go through an entire season and playoffs basically playing 7 guys.

Celtics had one of the most talented rosters in the league. Their problem isn't a talent problem (although they need to figure out the Horford situation) it is a mental and coaching problem.

They play below their talent level so often and don't play as a team. Standing around chucking up 3's is easy to defend.

You watch Denver or Miami (with lesser talent) and they are playing as a unit. Not individual players. But IMO a lot of that is coaching.

They did it October - All-star break. Crisp ball movement leading to open 3's. Then for some reason reverted back to walking ball up the court dribbling for 15 seconds and shooting. 3.

Hopefully they can be coached out of that. Or to keep good habits

Some of that is coaching but I would say a lot of that comes down to player's skill-sets. Some guys have more team based skill-sets and some guys are more individualistic in nature.

The problem for BOS is that Jaylen Brown is extremely individualistic. He takes a huge proportion of shot attempts & offensive possessions while creating very little for others. It is hard to build team based offenses when your key guy is so selfish.

[Vermont Green]

My conclusion is if the Cs were to pull their heads out of their own butts they had a real good chance at winning a title this year. Not sure if they would have beaten Denver but they really should have made it to the finals. Feels like such a lost opportunity.

My opinion is they should not break up the Js. They can move all the periphery pieces around them any way they like but I don’t think those two are the problem (at least yet). They are 25 and 26 and about to enter their primes when stars usually start winning.

The biggest issue on the team outside of coaching (which management seems to be trying to rectify already this offseason) is the front court depth and lack of viable bench players. Williams is often hurt and Horford cannot beat Father Time. They have a glut of guards so making a move for a younger more durable 4/5 type is a necessary need imo. Maybe not a KAT or anything like that but they need to get more production/health out of that group. Additionally, if the coach can’t trust the younger bench guys like Hauser/Williams/Pritchard, they need to go out and sign some veteran guys who will know their role. Can’t go through an entire season and playoffs basically playing 7 guys.

Celtics had one of the most talented rosters in the league. Their problem isn't a talent problem (although they need to figure out the Horford situation) it is a mental and coaching problem.

They play below their talent level so often and don't play as a team. Standing around chucking up 3's is easy to defend.

You watch Denver or Miami (with lesser talent) and they are playing as a unit. Not individual players. But IMO a lot of that is coaching.

They did it October - All-star break. Crisp ball movement leading to open 3's. Then for some reason reverted back to walking ball up the court dribbling for 15 seconds and shooting. 3.

Hopefully they can be coached out of that. Or to keep good habits

Some of that is coaching but I would say a lot of that comes down to player's skill-sets. Some guys have more team based skill-sets and some guys are more individualistic in nature.

The problem for BOS is that Jaylen Brown is extremely individualistic. He takes a huge proportion of shot attempts & offensive possessions while creating very little for others. It is hard to build team based offenses when your key guy is so selfish.

I think the impact of lack of coaching continuity is an underappreciated aspect of this.  We have had 3 different head coaches and a number of different assists in the last 3 years.  Now I get that Stevens was here to somewhat help transition to Udoka, and Mazzulla was promoted from Udoka's staff but the Celtics have had the opposite of continuity.

A really tight, team-based offense, is hard to develop when a rookie coach is thrown in about a week before the season starts.  It usually takes a couple of seasons with the same coach and core players to see that develop.  Personnel/skill set impacts this also, as does buy in, but it has to start with a stable coaching staff.