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NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« on: June 13, 2023, 02:15:53 AM »

Online obnoxiousmime

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1: Our frontcourt wasn't good enough this year and it is the biggest need going forward. Moving away from double big meant our size took a big hit and the defense wasn't special anymore. On offense, the fact that our bigs couldn't score consistently inside meant our zone attack was limited and predictable. Aaron Gordon was destroying mismatches inside, shooting an occasional 3, and constantly moving off ball just showed how much we need a guy like that since Horford obviously can't do it anymore. I also won't excuse the staff or players for not looking for Rob more inside because he had a lot of success scoring on Bam. This Denver team always found the mismatch and made the right pass. Why is it so hard for our players to do the same? Are they even looking inside? Because a lot of times it didn't even seem like they were bothering, or maybe they just suck at passing.

2: Speaking of Gordon, can Brown play more like him? I know he's two inches shorter, but they're both strong, athletic, and can finish tough shots inside. Brown should not be dribble-driving so often, that much is clear. Then on defense, Brown should be the versatile menace that Gordon is. Nevermind, I just answered by own question. Brown is too inconsistent effort-wise to play that hard all the time. SOMEONE THAT IS NOT ONE OF OUR TWO STARS HAS TO FILL THIS ROLE.

3: When Denver or Miami ran a pick and roll, the screen setters were massive and created so much space. With Horford getting older, who's going to do that for us? Rob doesn't have the best girth or overall strength to do it well. It would be helpful if our bad ballhandling stars had some better screen setters to open those shots or lanes for them.

4: Even if a player doesn't shoot great from 3 or isn't the tallest, you'd much rather have a tough guy who shows up like Bruce Brown than someone who shrinks from the moment or can't hold up physically in the playoffs. The games are just SO physical and it shouldn't be a surprise that the 3s start to go cold. When that happens, who's going to make a tough 2? The fragile finesse guy? Nope, the guy who looks more like a football player. It bothers me that the organization doesn't seem to prioritize that. Grant is physical enough to play in the playoffs and the fact that Mazzulla didn't realize that until really late is mind-boggling.

5: Having a lead ballhandling guard that teams actually respect offensively is so needed for this team. Smart is too inconsistent with his outside shot and his only other move is posting up a smaller guard inside. White is just too deferential at times and I wonder if he just doesn't have the aggression to demand the ball. I thought our only chance of coming back in game 7 was to give the ball to White, but a few Brown TOs later, the game was over. Why didn't they call more plays for White? Or, why didn't he demand the ball?

6: The fact that we didn't have one Christian Braun-type to give us some needed bench minutes was disappointing. Mazzulla gave up on the bench guys too quickly, and you have to wonder why they are even on the roster if they all apparently can't play more than 5 minutes. How come other teams still found ways to play their defensively-challenged guys but we can't? Pritchard is one of the few guys on the team that actually consistently brings energy and they really missed that.

7: Tatum has to reach another level. The best players are always going to be waiting for you in the later rounds and finals, and the teams that have the best player usually win. Jokic is just on another level in shooting ability, inside/outside game, passing, post game, and basketball IQ. While it's not fair to expect Tatum to attain skills he just wasn't born with, he needs to double down on scoring and defense. Yes, the playmaking should always be improving but his greatest skill is clearly scoring. He needs to figure out why his 3-ball has gotten so bad and adjust his shot profile. He needs to re-embrace the mid range and scoring in the post. What are your high-percentage go-to moves? Why does he makes offense harder than it needs to be? He's 6'9'' and most defenders can't bother his shot. He should be shooting at least the high 40s, if not 50%.

8: The Nuggets were getting totally screwed on calls all throughout game 5 but they never let it bother them for very long. It was embarrassing that the Celtics still couldn't totally get by this horrible habit of theirs and it just shows how immature some of them still are. You know what the Heat are thinking when you're pouting about a call? They're thinking "They're frazzled, we got 'em."

9: Malone and Spo  consistently had the right message and tone for their team. Mazzulla's comments were often confusing, defensive, or even contradictory to what the players were saying.

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2023, 02:36:59 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Yes, we need to upgrade the front-court. Horford is ancient and Timelord can't stay healthy. KAT's looking for a new home I heard.

Mazz definitely just didn't use his bench...Muscala, Hauser, even Pritchard all just rotting on the bench. They could've helped ease some load even for a couple of minutes. At least we'll get Gallinari back next season, or whatever that is left of him.

Lastly, live by the 3 and die by the 3...that mindset needs to go. The recent NBA champs won by attacking the basket, being physical, playing D, and taking 2's. Need to stop overtaking the 3's esp when it's not falling. It's time to bring back some mix of traditional basketball...get an actual PF/C who can dominate the frontcourt, rim protection, and grab boards. We've been lacking that since KG/Perk days.

Tatum definitely needs to climb on to the next level as our leader. His competition will get tougher moving forward. As for Brown, he looks like a #2 guy not a 1B player. But for me, I'm ready to move on from him...count me in on the #JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) wagon . Get me Dame or KAT in return.

It's too bad we can't lose Joe, but now he's got some assistants. I'll be gravely disappointed again if we do not win 2024.


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Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2023, 03:02:59 AM »

Offline j804

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Yes, we need to upgrade the front-court. Horford is ancient and Timelord can't stay healthy. KAT's looking for a new home I heard.

Mazz definitely just didn't use his bench...Muscala, Hauser, even Pritchard all just rotting on the bench. They could've helped ease some load even for a couple of minutes. At least we'll get Gallinari back next season, or whatever that is left of him.

Lastly, live by the 3 and die by the 3...that mindset needs to go. The recent NBA champs won by attacking the basket, being physical, playing D, and taking 2's. Need to stop overtaking the 3's esp when it's not falling. It's time to bring back some mix of traditional basketball...get an actual PF/C who can dominate the frontcourt, rim protection, and grab boards. We've been lacking that since KG/Perk days.

Tatum definitely needs to climb on to the next level as our leader. His competition will get tougher moving forward. As for Brown, he looks like a #2 guy not a 1B player. But for me, I'm ready to move on from him...count me in on the #JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) wagon . Get me Dame or KAT in return.

It's too bad we can't lose Joe, but now he's got some assistants. I'll be gravely disappointed again if we do not win 2024.
Brown for KAT would be a slam dunk off-season even better if Joe was gone as well lol
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Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2023, 04:07:25 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Point nine effectively doesn't matter, because media commentary is just fan service. Otherwise great post :)
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Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2023, 06:52:19 AM »

Offline cman88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2023, 06:56:33 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I think we need to return to some more playmaking from the post. Jokic obviously does it, but so do Butler and Bam. We moved away from Horford in that role, but I think Tatum and Smart can playmake at a high level from the post. It will also help us combat zones that have disabled our offence. Gallo might even be able to contribute to this in a bench role.

I believe we need more balance. We have some imbalance, especially with Brown playing like a poorer version of Tatum rather than playing to his strengths (cutting, shooting off the catch rather than the dribble, transition offence).

Coaching additions should help. Lee to help Mazz, Cassell to help the players. If Smart can return to that DPOY level whilst White retains his All-D team, that would help. But we really need to mitigate Al's decline soon, because it's killing us.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2023, 06:58:07 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2023, 07:03:51 AM »

Offline cman88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2023, 08:03:48 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"
Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2023, 08:12:13 AM »

Offline Larry for 3

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"
Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

And 1 team has a big guy and a guard and a multiple MVP and the other has questions whether their 2 best players can even play together for years. Also The juxtaposition of brown and murrary is so striking.  1 guy has a game 4 where he has 12 assists and zero turnovers and the other dribbles it off his leg more times than I can count. Murray is so smooth. I’m jealous.
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Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2023, 08:19:31 AM »

Offline tonydelk

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There is no need to blow it up.  The C's lost to Miami because of self inflicted wounds not because they were the worse team.  The team needs to get back to it's defensive identity and they also need to make a few tweaks.  I love Smart but they need a better floor general.  They'd be better off with Brogdon starting then Smart.  If marcus can bring back a PF it's the route that is needed.  Horford at this point in his career is a very good bench piece but the C's need more size.  I wonder how Ime feels about Smart.  Can the C's get Sengun and Tate for Smart?  I've watched Sengun play a lot this year and he really started coming into his own.  For some reason to the start of the year they only played him in the low 20's.  In the last month or two he was getting 30+ minutes and averaging a double double with 4 assists, 1 blk and 1 steal.  If he adds more strength and develops his 3pt shot a little more you can play through him.  Tate, Sengun and Martin Jr for Smart. 

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2023, 08:35:27 AM »

Offline cman88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"
Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

Huh? Besides Horford and Brogdon Celtics core is one of the youngest in the league. Smart, Tatum, brown, Williams, grant all drafted guys in their 20's still. this is a really really bad take. And Tatum is arguably top 5 in the league and is still 25. Let's not forget Jocic is 28

No one in the world would argue Celtics are built around an ageing core..

If you want to talk an old core that has questions look of Milwaukee with Middleton/holiday or sixers with harden.

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2023, 08:38:43 AM »

Offline cman88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"
Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

And 1 team has a big guy and a guard and a multiple MVP and the other has questions whether their 2 best players can even play together for years. Also The juxtaposition of brown and murrary is so striking.  1 guy has a game 4 where he has 12 assists and zero turnovers and the other dribbles it off his leg more times than I can count. Murray is so smooth. I’m jealous.

These hot take "what have you done for me lately" narratives are so funny to read. All year Brown was an all-nba player and multiple times all-star.

Murray has had questions all year and worse stats across the board. But now....according to Celtics fans he's better...

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2023, 08:48:31 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"
Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

Huh? Besides Horford and Brogdon Celtics core is one of the youngest in the league. Smart, Tatum, brown, Williams, grant all drafted guys in their 20's still. this is a really really bad take. And Tatum is arguably top 5 in the league and is still 25. Let's not forget Jocic is 28

No one in the world would argue Celtics are built around an ageing core..

If you want to talk an old core that has questions look of Milwaukee with Middleton/holiday or sixers with harden.
Haha. “Besides 2 of the top 6 rotation, the core is young!”. The Williams’ are hardly reliable - one is always injured, the other does not play and might leave imminently. Smart and White are both 29 and likely have no improvement left.

Nobody said ageing core. Reading comprehension is important. Our reliance on ageing, declining players is pretty obviously an issue.

Jokic (not sure why you insist on disrespecting him by misspelling his name) is 28, but has no reliance on athleticism. Not really a likely candidate for declining soon.

Of Denver’s top 7 in the playoffs, only KCP is older than Smart & White. None older than Brogdon, none even close to Horford.

Not sure why you’re bringing up other Eastern teams that are worse than us.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Finals conclusions from a C's perspective
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2023, 08:50:41 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Nuggets are actually an argument for not "blowing up the core!" like many fans want. Denver kept with their core, learned to play together, went through the ups and downs of losing. basically they just added gordon

and finally broke through with an NBA championship. And Jocic is 28 which seems to be the magic age that players put it together fully...vs Tatums 25 and Browns 26.
Not quite. It isn't like we've missed Brown for multiple playoff runs. They also added Gordon and Bruce Brown, 2 of their top 6 in the rotation. I guess White and Brogdon could be that for us, but we need to desperately upgrade on Al

They could've easily said the murray/Jocic pairing isnt working because hes oft injured and went in a different direction..instead they doubled down on adding to that pairing. for years people said Jocic wasnt a worthy MVP because he couldn't carry his team to a finals...

it's really not much different than Boston deciding to stick with 25 year old and 26 year old all-NBA players rather than "blowing it up!"
Couple of points.

1) The people saying this stuff about Jokic were always morons. He is the best player in the world, and has at worst been the 2nd best at any stage over the last 3 seasons. That is a key point of difference between Denver's situation and ours.

2) Denver's entire core is young. Horford & Brogdon are older than any of their core besides Jeff Green. Sure, Tatum and potentially Brown have more room for improvement, but we are relying heavily on ageing players where Denver isn't.

3) For every Denver, there is a Toronto.

That's NBA champion Jeff Green to you and me.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."