Retool Around Tatum

[Moranis]

I would rather have Brown than Morant.  Morant is a risk, a risk that the Celtics just don't need to take.

Totally. And he messes with our core competencies (switching on defense, shooting on offense). He subtracts more than he adds compared to Brown.

Also morant is probably suspended a minimum of 30 games to start next season. That certainly wouldn’t help our seeding

Can’t lose to the eighth seed next season if you are the eighth seed.

Tatum is still on the team. They'd be fine.

[snively]

I would rather have Brown than Morant.  Morant is a risk, a risk that the Celtics just don't need to take.

Totally. And he messes with our core competencies (switching on defense, shooting on offense). He subtracts more than he adds compared to Brown.

Also morant is probably suspended a minimum of 30 games to start next season. That certainly wouldn’t help our seeding

It's about building a better core that can shed some of the burgeoning limitations of this one.

And if Jaylen has plateaued as a volume scorer who can't make plays for others or get to the line in volume or generate a lot of gravity moving off the ball, ie a 2 guard version of Antwan Jamison or Rashard Lewis, then we need to adjust our trade expectations.

Further can't rely on the blueprint for our previous success. So much depended on Horford. His 2 way game. His ability to facilitate offensively while spacing the floor and anchoring the defense.

For us to play the high volume 3 point game we need to add more speed, more dynamism, more playmaking at the head of the snake. Someone who can beat traps and give Tatum a disordered defense to attack. Someone who can recast our identity and break us out of the stagnation that has doomed the last two playoff runs.

Ja and Trae are the best candidates IMHO. High volume playmakers and penetrators. Young enough to give flexibility and room for error on the margins. Dynamic. And both theoretically available - Morant for off court reasons, Trae because of duplication with Murray.

[Celtics4ever]

Further can't rely on the blueprint for our previous success. So much depended on Horford. His 2 way game. His ability to facilitate offensively while spacing the floor and anchoring the defense.

For us to play the high volume 3 point game we need to add more speed, more dynamism, more playmaking at the head of the snake. Someone who can beat traps and give Tatum a disordered defense to attack. Someone who can recast our identity and break us out of the stagnation that has doomed the last two playoff runs.

TP, well said,

[gouki88]

This team needs a leader, someone who can instill toughness when the going gets hard.  Butler does this for MIA, and it makes their players play much better than they are on paper.   I realize these guys are hard to find.    Given what we have seen from Tatum, to me, it is clear he is not that way.   Although, he wants to be a Kobe and he is a great player in his own regard, he does not have Mamba level instincts.   We do not handle adversity well and we need someone who can demand accountability from this team.    I doubt, think Joe is that guy.    I too, though Brown and Smart might be, but I think guys have shut Marcus out somewhat.   Al is a great mentor but aging.   

What we need is what we called a force multiplier in the form of a player or coach.  A force multiplier is a factor or a combination of factors that gives personnel or weapons the ability to accomplish greater feats than without it.  KG did this for us, so did Larry, and Russell and there were other guys in our past that made team mates better.   I think this is what we lack,  how we get it I don't know.

I think you're mythologising people a bit. Kobe and Butler at 25 were not these 'force multipliers'

[RJ87]

This team needs a leader, someone who can instill toughness when the going gets hard.  Butler does this for MIA, and it makes their players play much better than they are on paper.   I realize these guys are hard to find.    Given what we have seen from Tatum, to me, it is clear he is not that way.   Although, he wants to be a Kobe and he is a great player in his own regard, he does not have Mamba level instincts.   We do not handle adversity well and we need someone who can demand accountability from this team.    I doubt, think Joe is that guy.    I too, though Brown and Smart might be, but I think guys have shut Marcus out somewhat.   Al is a great mentor but aging.   

What we need is what we called a force multiplier in the form of a player or coach.  A force multiplier is a factor or a combination of factors that gives personnel or weapons the ability to accomplish greater feats than without it.  KG did this for us, so did Larry, and Russell and there were other guys in our past that made team mates better.   I think this is what we lack,  how we get it I don't know.

I think you're mythologising people a bit. Kobe and Butler at 25 were not these 'force multipliers'

Butler at 25 had just cracked 20 pts per game and became an All-Star for the 1st time. The Bulls got bounced in the 2nd round.

I'll even give Butler the benefit of the doubt at look at his 6th season (when he was 27) in the league, the same one Tatum just finished. That season, Butler put up 24pts / 6 rbs / 5.5 asts. The Bulls finished as a .500 team that got bounced in the 1st round after losing 4 straight to the Boston Celtics after going up 2-0.

Then he demanded a trade.

Force multiplier for sure.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

I would rather have Brown than Morant.  Morant is a risk, a risk that the Celtics just don't need to take.

Totally. And he messes with our core competencies (switching on defense, shooting on offense). He subtracts more than he adds compared to Brown.

Also morant is probably suspended a minimum of 30 games to start next season. That certainly wouldn’t help our seeding

It's about building a better core that can shed some of the burgeoning limitations of this one.

And if Jaylen has plateaued as a volume scorer who can't make plays for others or get to the line in volume or generate a lot of gravity moving off the ball, ie a 2 guard version of Antwan Jamison or Rashard Lewis, then we need to adjust our trade expectations.

Further can't rely on the blueprint for our previous success. So much depended on Horford. His 2 way game. His ability to facilitate offensively while spacing the floor and anchoring the defense.

For us to play the high volume 3 point game we need to add more speed, more dynamism, more playmaking at the head of the snake. Someone who can beat traps and give Tatum a disordered defense to attack. Someone who can recast our identity and break us out of the stagnation that has doomed the last two playoff runs.

Ja and Trae are the best candidates IMHO. High volume playmakers and penetrators. Young enough to give flexibility and room for error on the margins. Dynamic. And both theoretically available - Morant for off court reasons, Trae because of duplication with Murray.

go after trae then. he is very young and if he can give us speed, dribble penetration, playmaking and shooting then that is what we need at the PG spot.

[gouki88]

This team needs a leader, someone who can instill toughness when the going gets hard.  Butler does this for MIA, and it makes their players play much better than they are on paper.   I realize these guys are hard to find.    Given what we have seen from Tatum, to me, it is clear he is not that way.   Although, he wants to be a Kobe and he is a great player in his own regard, he does not have Mamba level instincts.   We do not handle adversity well and we need someone who can demand accountability from this team.    I doubt, think Joe is that guy.    I too, though Brown and Smart might be, but I think guys have shut Marcus out somewhat.   Al is a great mentor but aging.   

What we need is what we called a force multiplier in the form of a player or coach.  A force multiplier is a factor or a combination of factors that gives personnel or weapons the ability to accomplish greater feats than without it.  KG did this for us, so did Larry, and Russell and there were other guys in our past that made team mates better.   I think this is what we lack,  how we get it I don't know.

I think you're mythologising people a bit. Kobe and Butler at 25 were not these 'force multipliers'

Butler at 25 had just cracked 20 pts per game and became an All-Star for the 1st time. The Bulls got bounced in the 2nd round.

I'll even give Butler the benefit of the doubt at look at his 6th season (when he was 27) in the league, the same one Tatum just finished. That season, Butler put up 24pts / 6 rbs / 5.5 asts. The Bulls finished as a .500 team that got bounced in the 1st round after losing 4 straight to the Boston Celtics after going up 2-0.

Then he demanded a trade.

Force multiplier for sure.

Even someone like MJ took a while to become a “force multiplier”. The bar Tatum is held to is astronomical

[Who]

Tatum does make his teammates better.

Did you not see how badly they played in Gm 7 when he wasn't healthy enough to lead the way? 

[gouki88]

Tatum does make his teammates better.

Did you not see how badly they played in Gm 7 when he wasn't healthy enough to lead the way?

Agree. Claiming Tatum doesn’t make those around him better is an astonishingly wrong take. He is such a focal point for the opposition, his mere presence generates better looks for others, let alone his passing and ability to play both ends.

[flybono]

this GM never did believe in having a big who can dominate down low to punish teams and then open everything  else up mid to deep range. shoulda traded brown for KD. were pizzing JT away with this clown management and coaching. and maybe ownership. a real big woulda destroyed bam down low.

Who is this dominant post big that's been available that we've refused to acquire?

Yeah, I can't think of many. There aren't many high-scoring bigs (Embiid, Jokic, Giannis (?), Markannen, Randle, Porzingis), even less of which are low-post oriented.

Maybe a fringe big like Siakam, or a lesser scorer like Vucevic/Ayton?

Which is my point, those players don't really exist in today's NBA. The legit post dominant guys (Jokic and Embiid) aren't available. After that, you get a bunch of guys that are more perimeter oriented and shoot a ton of 3s too.

Posters are begging for players who simply don't exist. So when posters start clamoring for "a big who can dominate down low to punish teams," they need to attach the names of these mythical players.

Ayton
He can score and rebound down low

[flybono]

I'll take a double double machine that shoots 59% from the floor any day of the week.  Ayton has never averaged less than 10 rebounds in his career. He scored 18 a game this year.  Even in the playoffs he averaged 9.7 boards.  His scoring was down to 13.4, but that was mostly him getting less touches as he still shot 55% from the field. Phoenix didn't know how to use him, especially after Durant came over, but those are not the numbers of a player that stinks. The Suns are trying to move on from him because of fit, which is why a package as weak as Smart and Brogdon may actually be enough to get him.

Bingo!

Would a package including RWilliams be enough, more of a Defensive guy who can’t do much else but would help Suns on D end

[flybono]

I would rather have Brown than Morant.  Morant is a risk, a risk that the Celtics just don't need to take.

Totally. And he messes with our core competencies (switching on defense, shooting on offense). He subtracts more than he adds compared to Brown.

Also morant is probably suspended a minimum of 30 games to start next season. That certainly wouldn’t help our seeding

It's about building a better core that can shed some of the burgeoning limitations of this one.

And if Jaylen has plateaued as a volume scorer who can't make plays for others or get to the line in volume or generate a lot of gravity moving off the ball, ie a 2 guard version of Antwan Jamison or Rashard Lewis, then we need to adjust our trade expectations.

Further can't rely on the blueprint for our previous success. So much depended on Horford. His 2 way game. His ability to facilitate offensively while spacing the floor and anchoring the defense.

For us to play the high volume 3 point game we need to add more speed, more dynamism, more playmaking at the head of the snake. Someone who can beat traps and give Tatum a disordered defense to attack. Someone who can recast our identity and break us out of the stagnation that has doomed the last two playoff runs.

Ja and Trae are the best candidates IMHO. High volume playmakers and penetrators. Young enough to give flexibility and room for error on the margins. Dynamic. And both theoretically available - Morant for off court reasons, Trae because of duplication with Murray.

go after trae then. he is very young and if he can give us speed, dribble penetration, playmaking and shooting then that is what we need at the PG spot.

Bingo!

The Smart era must come to an end

[Moranis]

I'd be fine with Trae, but I wouldn't trade Brown for him.  I don't like that value enough. 

That said, I had proposed something like this before and I still think it makes a lot of sense for all 3 teams

Boston - Lillard, Collins, Little
Atlanta - Smart, Brown, Kornet
Portland - Young, Gallinari, Pritchard

Other players and draft picks could be included.

The Blazers get a young star signed long term to be the new face of the franchise.  He will sell tickets and put butts in the seat and he has led the Hawks to the playoffs (including the ECF).  The Hawks get out of the Young headache and fit for a local star that should fit better with Murray.  And the Celtics get their closer and more big depth.

Boston post trade

Starters - Lillard, White, Tatum, Collins, Rob
Main Bench - Brogdon, Hauser, Little, Grant, Muscala, Horford
Deep Bench - Davison, Champagnie, #35

Still 1 open roster spot and that assumes all 3 deep bench make the actual roster and 2 aren't the 2-way players. 

[snively]

Brown is a two time all star coming off a disastrous ECF with a less than ideal contract situation. I don't think his value is going to be higher than Trae, himself a two time all star and two years younger to boot.

[gouki88]

I'd be fine with Trae, but I wouldn't trade Brown for him.  I don't like that value enough. 

That said, I had proposed something like this before and I still think it makes a lot of sense for all 3 teams

Boston - Lillard, Collins, Little
Atlanta - Smart, Brown, Kornet
Portland - Young, Gallinari, Pritchard

Other players and draft picks could be included.

The Blazers get a young star signed long term to be the new face of the franchise.  He will sell tickets and put butts in the seat and he has led the Hawks to the playoffs (including the ECF).  The Hawks get out of the Young headache and fit for a local star that should fit better with Murray.  And the Celtics get their closer and more big depth.

Boston post trade

Starters - Lillard, White, Tatum, Collins, Rob
Main Bench - Brogdon, Hauser, Little, Grant, Muscala, Horford
Deep Bench - Davison, Champagnie, #35

Still 1 open roster spot and that assumes all 3 deep bench make the actual roster and 2 aren't the 2-way players.

I love that team. I would probably start Horford with Collins to allow Collins to operate in the paint, where I think he’s best. Lillard & Tatum would be unguardable together