Do you still believe

[angryguy77]

Agreed with the above. Like Moranis has said all season, the team only goes as far as Tatum takes them.

Re: Oklahoma, it's worth pointing out that the Thunder got split up immediately following their Finals loss because ownership was too cheap to retain Harden, who promptly went to Houston. That core never had another chance at a title.

Right and that's why it can't be taken for granted that titles will come with this team. No guarantees they stay together.

[Roy H.]

Roy, I didn't miss your point at all. You are talking about maximizing the "shots on goal" which is a fair point, but unrealistic.

I guess my question is, why is it unrealistic?  To me, ownership / management shouldn't punt (or go less than all in) on any season when Tatum / Brown is on the roster and healthy.

[Kernewek]

Agreed with the above. Like Moranis has said all season, the team only goes as far as Tatum takes them.

Re: Oklahoma, it's worth pointing out that the Thunder got split up immediately following their Finals loss because ownership was too cheap to retain Harden, who promptly went to Houston. That core never had another chance at a title.

Right and that's why it can't be taken for granted that titles will come with this team. No guarantees they stay together.

True, and I suppose there's a universe where the C's don't pay Jaylen the max, but everyone of merit on the C's roster will be back next season based on their current contracts (obviously trades et al happen).

[Dchuck]

Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".

I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.

What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

I think you entirely missed the point.  Nobody is disputing that the Celtics are relatively young.

But how many championships is that core guaranteed?  Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

I mean, the 2012 Thunder made the Finals.  They had 22 year old Ibaka, 22 year old Harden, 23 year old Westbrook and 23 year old Durant.  How many rings did that core win together?

Roy, I didn't miss your point at all. You are talking about maximizing the "shots on goal" which is a fair point, but unrealistic.

Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

is actually my point. There's a reason for that: Lack of veteran leadership.

While this team is young in age, they are all veterans with their experiences in ECFs and Finals over the past 5 years.  Players that are older with more years in the league are not as "experienced" as this group considering what they've gone through.  To your point, there is no leadership on this team.  None of them have it, nor have ever showed it.  That's concerning.  No one has that next level, "killer instinct", win at all costs, makeup.  In fact there are very few players in the league that have that type of leadership that demands the respect that makes their teammates want to run through a brick wall for them.  Ironically, all these players are fans of Kobe but don't understand what the "Mamba Mentality" was all about. 

This team has the most talent collectively, they have more than last year and they're healthier.  Sadly, we lost our defensive identity and toughness that we had last year.  That is on the coach, to whom I am not a fan.

However, with all the experience under their belt and how close they are to a championship (this could be the easiest path to one they'll ever have) you would think they would have learned their lesson by now.  Regardless of the incompetency of the coach, they can still control energy, effort, heart, pride. 

I do not like their offensive strategy, I loathe the lack of defensive identity, which obviously all comes from Joe.  But most of all, I HATE their lack of effort, heart and pride.  They're are games where shots won't fall, and their are defensive lapses (ie Brown doubling down off of Harden in game 4), so be it.  But you have to bring the energy and effort every game, despite of Joe's incompetency.  Instead, they were sleepwalking last night.  How do they not understand the magnitude of the opportunity in front of them after all these years?

For this reason, I don't know what to believe.  Truthfully, from their inconsistent comments in the post game, I don't know what they believe.

[Smartacus]

I do not believe.

I think if there was any way to keep Ime Udoka, they should have. Setting aside Ime Udoka the person and strictly looking at the coach shows us firing a man that had rock solid game management skills and a confident swagger that the locker room rallied around.  If there is more to the story behind the scene then I understand firing Ime, but having an non-marital affair with a subordinate would not have lost him his job in many NBA markets, and unfortunately the overly progressive commonwealth of Massachusetts just happens to be one of the markets where it would. This was a corporate decision that failed to consider the implications that it would have on the team's ability to remain competitive in a wide open NBA landscape.

Losing Ime in the way that we did and replacing him with just another guy in the locker room was a mistake and one that likely has cost us the 2023 season and might end up costing us Jaylen in the offseason.

[Redz]

Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".

I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.

What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

I think you entirely missed the point.  Nobody is disputing that the Celtics are relatively young.

But how many championships is that core guaranteed?  Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

I mean, the 2012 Thunder made the Finals.  They had 22 year old Ibaka, 22 year old Harden, 23 year old Westbrook and 23 year old Durant.  How many rings did that core win together?

Roy, I didn't miss your point at all. You are talking about maximizing the "shots on goal" which is a fair point, but unrealistic.

Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

is actually my point. There's a reason for that: Lack of veteran leadership.

While this team is young in age, they are all veterans with their experiences in ECFs and Finals over the past 5 years.  Players that are older with more years in the league are not as "experienced" as this group considering what they've gone through.  To your point, there is no leadership on this team.  None of them have it, nor have ever showed it.  That's concerning.  No one has that next level, "killer instinct", win at all costs, makeup.  In fact there are very few players in the league that have that type of leadership that demands the respect that makes their teammates want to run through a brick wall for them.  Ironically, all these players are fans of Kobe but don't understand what the "Mamba Mentality" was all about. 

This team has the most talent collectively, they have more than last year and they're healthier.  Sadly, we lost our defensive identity and toughness that we had last year.  That is on the coach, to whom I am not a fan.

However, with all the experience under their belt and how close they are to a championship (this could be the easiest path to one they'll ever have) you would think they would have learned their lesson by now.  Regardless of the incompetency of the coach, they can still control energy, effort, heart, pride. 

I do not like their offensive strategy, I loathe the lack of defensive identity, which obviously all comes from Joe.  But most of all, I HATE their lack of effort, heart and pride.  They're are games where shots won't fall, and their are defensive lapses (ie Brown doubling down off of Harden in game 4), so be it.  But you have to bring the energy and effort every game, despite of Joe's incompetency.  Instead, they were sleepwalking last night.  How do they not understand the magnitude of the opportunity in front of them after all these years?

For this reason, I don't know what to believe.  Truthfully, from their inconsistent comments in the post game, I don't know what they believe.

Celts are vets at this point, with tons of talent, but they lack the alpha dog.  I really think Brown could be that guy, but feels unsupported or unsure of his place because Tatum is the ordained second coming of Christ and Marcus is supposed to be that hard nosed leader guy but is too much of a knucklehead to really fulfill that role.

That said, if they come back and win this series then win the championship will we still be complaining?

[celticinorlando]

Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".

I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.

What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

I think you entirely missed the point.  Nobody is disputing that the Celtics are relatively young.

But how many championships is that core guaranteed?  Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

I mean, the 2012 Thunder made the Finals.  They had 22 year old Ibaka, 22 year old Harden, 23 year old Westbrook and 23 year old Durant.  How many rings did that core win together?

Roy, I didn't miss your point at all. You are talking about maximizing the "shots on goal" which is a fair point, but unrealistic.

Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

is actually my point. There's a reason for that: Lack of veteran leadership.

While this team is young in age, they are all veterans with their experiences in ECFs and Finals over the past 5 years.  Players that are older with more years in the league are not as "experienced" as this group considering what they've gone through.  To your point, there is no leadership on this team.  None of them have it, nor have ever showed it.  That's concerning.  No one has that next level, "killer instinct", win at all costs, makeup.  In fact there are very few players in the league that have that type of leadership that demands the respect that makes their teammates want to run through a brick wall for them.  Ironically, all these players are fans of Kobe but don't understand what the "Mamba Mentality" was all about. 

This team has the most talent collectively, they have more than last year and they're healthier.  Sadly, we lost our defensive identity and toughness that we had last year.  That is on the coach, to whom I am not a fan.

However, with all the experience under their belt and how close they are to a championship (this could be the easiest path to one they'll ever have) you would think they would have learned their lesson by now.  Regardless of the incompetency of the coach, they can still control energy, effort, heart, pride. 

I do not like their offensive strategy, I loathe the lack of defensive identity, which obviously all comes from Joe.  But most of all, I HATE their lack of effort, heart and pride.  They're are games where shots won't fall, and their are defensive lapses (ie Brown doubling down off of Harden in game 4), so be it.  But you have to bring the energy and effort every game, despite of Joe's incompetency.  Instead, they were sleepwalking last night.  How do they not understand the magnitude of the opportunity in front of them after all these years?

For this reason, I don't know what to believe.  Truthfully, from their inconsistent comments in the post game, I don't know what they believe.

Celts are vets at this point, with tons of talent, but they lack the alpha dog.  I really think Brown could be that guy, but feels unsupported or unsure of his place because Tatum is the ordained second coming of Christ and Marcus is supposed to be that hard nosed leader guy but is too much of a knucklehead to really fulfill that role.

That said, if they come back and win this series then win the championship will we still be complaining?

Which is why I think Brown leaves.

[Atzar]

While this team is young in age, they are all veterans with their experiences in ECFs and Finals over the past 5 years.  Players that are older with more years in the league are not as "experienced" as this group considering what they've gone through.  To your point, there is no leadership on this team.  None of them have it, nor have ever showed it.  That's concerning.  No one has that next level, "killer instinct", win at all costs, makeup.  In fact there are very few players in the league that have that type of leadership that demands the respect that makes their teammates want to run through a brick wall for them.  Ironically, all these players are fans of Kobe but don't understand what the "Mamba Mentality" was all about. 

This team has the most talent collectively, they have more than last year and they're healthier.  Sadly, we lost our defensive identity and toughness that we had last year.  That is on the coach, to whom I am not a fan.

However, with all the experience under their belt and how close they are to a championship (this could be the easiest path to one they'll ever have) you would think they would have learned their lesson by now.  Regardless of the incompetency of the coach, they can still control energy, effort, heart, pride. 

I do not like their offensive strategy, I loathe the lack of defensive identity, which obviously all comes from Joe.  But most of all, I HATE their lack of effort, heart and pride.  They're are games where shots won't fall, and their are defensive lapses (ie Brown doubling down off of Harden in game 4), so be it.  But you have to bring the energy and effort every game, despite of Joe's incompetency.  Instead, they were sleepwalking last night.  How do they not understand the magnitude of the opportunity in front of them after all these years?

For this reason, I don't know what to believe.  Truthfully, from their inconsistent comments in the post game, I don't know what they believe.

Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a lot more to unpack there than just blaming it on the coach.

First is that offense is up across the entire league.  Even as unimpressed as many of us were watching our defense this season, it was still top 5 in the league by most metrics.  NOBODY could consistently get stops this season. 

Second is that our interior presence from last season just isn't there anymore.  Al is aging, and Rob didn't return to DPOY form - and may never get all the way back.  Our perimeter defenders can't play with the same aggression they did last year because they don't have that safety net in the paint behind them.

Third is that the league is full of copycats.  I think Curry showed teams (and players) how to attack our defense when he killed us in the Finals last season.  It's not coincidence that every team with a good scoring guard lights us on fire now. 

I'm not sticking up for Joe.  I mentioned in another post that he has not been part of the solution for this team.  I expect that firing him will not be a serious consideration for Brad in the offseason, but I'd do it in a second if I could bring in Nurse in his stead.  I just thought the comment about our defense needed some more context. 

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

While this team is young in age, they are all veterans with their experiences in ECFs and Finals over the past 5 years.  Players that are older with more years in the league are not as "experienced" as this group considering what they've gone through.  To your point, there is no leadership on this team.  None of them have it, nor have ever showed it.  That's concerning.  No one has that next level, "killer instinct", win at all costs, makeup.  In fact there are very few players in the league that have that type of leadership that demands the respect that makes their teammates want to run through a brick wall for them.  Ironically, all these players are fans of Kobe but don't understand what the "Mamba Mentality" was all about. 

This team has the most talent collectively, they have more than last year and they're healthier.  Sadly, we lost our defensive identity and toughness that we had last year.  That is on the coach, to whom I am not a fan.

However, with all the experience under their belt and how close they are to a championship (this could be the easiest path to one they'll ever have) you would think they would have learned their lesson by now.  Regardless of the incompetency of the coach, they can still control energy, effort, heart, pride. 

I do not like their offensive strategy, I loathe the lack of defensive identity, which obviously all comes from Joe.  But most of all, I HATE their lack of effort, heart and pride.  They're are games where shots won't fall, and their are defensive lapses (ie Brown doubling down off of Harden in game 4), so be it.  But you have to bring the energy and effort every game, despite of Joe's incompetency.  Instead, they were sleepwalking last night.  How do they not understand the magnitude of the opportunity in front of them after all these years?

For this reason, I don't know what to believe.  Truthfully, from their inconsistent comments in the post game, I don't know what they believe.

Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a lot more to unpack there than just blaming it on the coach.

First is that offense is up across the entire league.  Even as unimpressed as many of us were watching our defense this season, it was still top 5 in the league by most metrics.  NOBODY could consistently get stops this season. 

Second is that our interior presence from last season just isn't there anymore.  Al is aging, and Rob didn't return to DPOY form - and may never get all the way back.  Our perimeter defenders can't play with the same aggression they did last year because they don't have that safety net in the paint behind them.

Third is that the league is full of copycats.  I think Curry showed teams (and players) how to attack our defense when he killed us in the Finals last season.  It's not coincidence that every team with a good scoring guard lights us on fire now. 

I'm not sticking up for Joe.  I mentioned in another post that he has not been part of the solution for this team.  I expect that firing him will not be a serious consideration for Brad in the offseason, but I'd do it in a second if I could bring in Nurse in his stead.  I just thought the comment about our defense needed some more context.

wyc needs to fire brad and joe if brad will not fire joe
. gutless.

[Moranis]

Cowherd was saying he thought the Celtics and Warriors should do Wiggins, Poole for Brown and filler this summer.  Not sure I'd do that, but it is an interesting trade to ponder. 

[Atzar]

Cowherd was saying he thought the Celtics and Warriors should do Wiggins, Poole for Brown and filler this summer.  Not sure I'd do that, but it is an interesting trade to ponder.

Major downgrade.  I would not touch Poole.  Especially on that atrocious contract they gave him.

Let somebody else fix Golden State's biggest mistake in the last decade.  Perhaps second-biggest depending on your opinion of the Wiseman pick, but the point stands nonetheless.

[Donoghus]

Cowherd was saying he thought the Celtics and Warriors should do Wiggins, Poole for Brown and filler this summer.  Not sure I'd do that, but it is an interesting trade to ponder.

Major downgrade.  I would not touch Poole.  Especially on that atrocious contract they gave him.

Let somebody else fix Golden State's biggest mistake in the last decade.  Perhaps second-biggest depending on your opinion of the Wiseman pick, but the point stands nonetheless.

Yeah, I want no part of Poole.

[Moranis]

Cowherd was saying he thought the Celtics and Warriors should do Wiggins, Poole for Brown and filler this summer.  Not sure I'd do that, but it is an interesting trade to ponder.

Major downgrade.  I would not touch Poole.  Especially on that atrocious contract they gave him.

Let somebody else fix Golden State's biggest mistake in the last decade.  Perhaps second-biggest depending on your opinion of the Wiseman pick, but the point stands nonetheless.

Yeah, I want no part of Poole.

He is overpaid, but his is a skill set that Boston lacks so I can at least understand it.  I'd need Kuminga or Moody to really consider it, but I do like the Tatum and Wiggins fit. I think they'd work pretty well.  Not as good as Brown though which is why I'd want one of the young guys before I'd seriously consider it.

[liam]

I believe if we play all out we are the better team.

[Who]

I'm 50-50.

I was 70-30 before Gm 5.
I was 100% to start the series and until after Gm 4.

So 50-50 = I still believe it is possible but I am not all that confident of. Coin flip. Not sure if this group has that character to fight through this and get it done over the next 2 games. Also not sure they don't. They may indeed have that character. This team has been so inconsistent that I do not know what effort they are going to come with in Gm 6. Especially if they get down early.