Do you still believe

[JSD]

You’ve got to give credit to Doc Rivers here, he slowed the game down, muckrd it up, put the Celtics to the free throw line a bunch to get his guys more rest while taking the Celtics out of rhythm.

Pretty brilliant strategy

[Dchuck]

While this team is young in age, they are all veterans with their experiences in ECFs and Finals over the past 5 years.  Players that are older with more years in the league are not as "experienced" as this group considering what they've gone through.  To your point, there is no leadership on this team.  None of them have it, nor have ever showed it.  That's concerning.  No one has that next level, "killer instinct", win at all costs, makeup.  In fact there are very few players in the league that have that type of leadership that demands the respect that makes their teammates want to run through a brick wall for them.  Ironically, all these players are fans of Kobe but don't understand what the "Mamba Mentality" was all about. 

This team has the most talent collectively, they have more than last year and they're healthier.  Sadly, we lost our defensive identity and toughness that we had last year.  That is on the coach, to whom I am not a fan.

However, with all the experience under their belt and how close they are to a championship (this could be the easiest path to one they'll ever have) you would think they would have learned their lesson by now.  Regardless of the incompetency of the coach, they can still control energy, effort, heart, pride. 

I do not like their offensive strategy, I loathe the lack of defensive identity, which obviously all comes from Joe.  But most of all, I HATE their lack of effort, heart and pride.  They're are games where shots won't fall, and their are defensive lapses (ie Brown doubling down off of Harden in game 4), so be it.  But you have to bring the energy and effort every game, despite of Joe's incompetency.  Instead, they were sleepwalking last night.  How do they not understand the magnitude of the opportunity in front of them after all these years?

For this reason, I don't know what to believe.  Truthfully, from their inconsistent comments in the post game, I don't know what they believe.

Regarding the bolded:  I think there's a lot more to unpack there than just blaming it on the coach.

First is that offense is up across the entire league.  Even as unimpressed as many of us were watching our defense this season, it was still top 5 in the league by most metrics.  NOBODY could consistently get stops this season. 

Second is that our interior presence from last season just isn't there anymore.  Al is aging, and Rob didn't return to DPOY form - and may never get all the way back.  Our perimeter defenders can't play with the same aggression they did last year because they don't have that safety net in the paint behind them.

Third is that the league is full of copycats.  I think Curry showed teams (and players) how to attack our defense when he killed us in the Finals last season.  It's not coincidence that every team with a good scoring guard lights us on fire now. 

I'm not sticking up for Joe.  I mentioned in another post that he has not been part of the solution for this team.  I expect that firing him will not be a serious consideration for Brad in the offseason, but I'd do it in a second if I could bring in Nurse in his stead.  I just thought the comment about our defense needed some more context.

Make no mistake, this is not all on the coach.  The players are out there and deserve as much blame. 

Last year our defensive energy and effort was there.  Now, it is simply not there because it's not as important to Joe.  If we had an off night offensively or the 3s weren't falling, our defense could save us or turn the momentum around in a game.  Defensively we were flying around, wreaking havoc even with an injured RW.  I'd contend we have more experience, depth, and health meaning our D should be even better this year.  That starts with the coach.  But even more egregious is there seems to be no accountability when it comes to effort and energy.  "Good intentions" as Joe put it, ain't gonna cut it.  You either execute or you don't.

[ozgod]

A few thoughts here.

Most star players don't win anything until they reach their primes.  Notable exceptions from the last 30 years are Kobe (won at 21 iirc playing next to Shaq), Wade (again, with Shaq), and Duncan (with the Admiral).  Most take much longer.  Giannis won in his eighth year at age 26.  Lebron got his first in year nine after teaming up with Wade and Bosh.  Curry got his first in year six after three years in college.  Durant, year ten.  Garnett, year thirteen.  So struggling to get over the hump at this age is normal, even for players who - let's be honest - are a class above Tatum and Brown as players.

That said, it's absolutely fair to be frustrated at this.  I know I am, to the point where I don't even enjoy watching this team most nights.  There's no guarantee we ever cash in.  I listed several guys who won later than one might "expect"; there's a much longer list of guys who "should have won" and never did.  And none of us want our guys to end up on that list.  Key guys could leave, get hurt, regress, retire, or anything else, and suddenly that window closes.  We have a golden opportunity to win this year in a league with no current juggernaut, and we're on the brink of squandering it. 

I don't think Joe is the biggest problem.  He sure as hell isn't part of the solution, and I would have greatly preferred a coach with more experience to lead this group.  But we're falling victim to the same s*** that has plagued us for the last three seasons, under three coaches.  At some point it's less about the guy on the sideline holding a clipboard and more about what the guys on the court can do to be better than they currently are.

The issue of letting poor offense and missed shots affect the intensity of their defense is something that has plagued this team for a number of years now. There's a casualness and softness about them at times, almost like they don't care enough. Not being able to keep people in front of you, as Jaylen said, is an effort thing.  That effort seems to drop off whenever they miss shots. In fact they compound those missed shots by trying to hit home runs from 3 instead of trusting their offense. Threes in themselves are not bad or good shots, it's the type and quality of three that is taken that determines if it's good or not.

Three coaches have tried to get rid of those bad habits but they surface now and again, and last game was the worst time for them to surface, because the margin for error is so small now. They have two chances to redeem themselves. I'll be interested to see if they rise to the occasion or not. If they don't I would suspect it's a leadership issue, and that would fall on Tatum and Brown to set the right example for the team and on Mazz to put them in the best position to be successful, and sometimes that means being a leader, not a colleague, no matter how close his age is to theirs.

But...I still believe. I'll keep believing till we're eliminated. Then I will say my belief was wrong 

[celticinorlando]

I will watch tomorrow but it’s not going to be life or death. In my mind game 6 is just a formality and a foregone conclusion.

And when they are eliminated I will move on without the stress and exhaustion of caring more than the team does.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I believe that they can still win this series.

Will they? I have no idea. It's totally up to them.

My confidence, however, is quite low. They seem as deflated as the general fandom.

[Kernewek]

A few thoughts here.

Most star players don't win anything until they reach their primes.  Notable exceptions from the last 30 years are Kobe (won at 21 iirc playing next to Shaq), Wade (again, with Shaq), and Duncan (with the Admiral).  Most take much longer.  Giannis won in his eighth year at age 26.  Lebron got his first in year nine after teaming up with Wade and Bosh.  Curry got his first in year six after three years in college.  Durant, year ten.  Garnett, year thirteen.  So struggling to get over the hump at this age is normal, even for players who - let's be honest - are a class above Tatum and Brown as players.

That said, it's absolutely fair to be frustrated at this.  I know I am, to the point where I don't even enjoy watching this team most nights.  There's no guarantee we ever cash in.  I listed several guys who won later than one might "expect"; there's a much longer list of guys who "should have won" and never did.  And none of us want our guys to end up on that list.  Key guys could leave, get hurt, regress, retire, or anything else, and suddenly that window closes.  We have a golden opportunity to win this year in a league with no current juggernaut, and we're on the brink of squandering it. 

I don't think Joe is the biggest problem.  He sure as hell isn't part of the solution, and I would have greatly preferred a coach with more experience to lead this group.  But we're falling victim to the same s*** that has plagued us for the last three seasons, under three coaches.  At some point it's less about the guy on the sideline holding a clipboard and more about what the guys on the court can do to be better than they currently are.

The issue of letting poor offense and missed shots affect the intensity of their defense is something that has plagued this team for a number of years now. There's a casualness and softness about them at times, almost like they don't care enough. Not being able to keep people in front of you, as Jaylen said, is an effort thing.  That effort seems to drop off whenever they miss shots. In fact they compound those missed shots by trying to hit home runs from 3 instead of trusting their offense. Threes in themselves are not bad or good shots, it's the type and quality of three that is taken that determines if it's good or not.

Three coaches have tried to get rid of those bad habits but they surface now and again, and last game was the worst time for them to surface, because the margin for error is so small now. They have two chances to redeem themselves. I'll be interested to see if they rise to the occasion or not. If they don't I would suspect it's a leadership issue, and that would fall on Tatum and Brown to set the right example for the team and on Mazz to put them in the best position to be successful, and sometimes that means being a leader, not a colleague, no matter how close his age is to theirs.

But...I still believe. I'll keep believing till we're eliminated. Then I will say my belief was wrong 

Two good posts. Tp guys

[jmen788]

Everything went right for Philly last game and everything went wrong for us. No way we shoot so poorly again. We are also better on the road than at home. Us p*ssing away G4 could haunt us but we should win game 6. I have more faith in us on the road than at home (as I should). If we do win this series (not confident but based on probabilities and logic think we should at least win G6), then each series is different and we do have a chance to win it all. 2008 was ugly in round 1, we still won it all. I don't know. I have low expectations but hoping for the best. So disappointing to see Tatum put up an empty 35 points that is meaningless as his percentage is awful and too many shots.. he lacks the killer instinct. I prefer Brown to Tatum. Ok done rambling (for now).

[Phantom255x]

I'll certainly believe again if they win Game 6

I do think Game 6 is essentially going to be a Game 7 for both teams. PHI has looked great, but I think even they know they need to wrap this up in 6 at their homecourt and not risk having to go back to Boston for a Game 7. If Boston loses, of course series is over. But if Boston wins Game 6, I think they firmly have the advantage for Game 7.

Even though TD Garden probably is cursed, the C's do very well at home in Game 7s. Won Game 7 against MIL at home last season. I know we dread 2018 ECF Game 7 against Lebron's Cavs, but since 2017 the C's have gone 3-1 in home Game 7s, and I guess 4-1 if you count 2020 Bubble vs. Toronto. Also had the big Game 7 road win last season against Miami. I don't think a Game 7 would scare them. Funny enough, it's the games in-between where they seem to play worse, but they show up in the "backs against the wall" games almost always (the elimination games)

[Mahk E Mahk]

I believe if we play all out we are the better team.

and therein lies the rub. based on what we’ve witnessed this season, that’s a big “if.”

[jmen788]

You’ve got to give credit to Doc Rivers here, he slowed the game down, muckrd it up, put the Celtics to the free throw line a bunch to get his guys more rest while taking the Celtics out of rhythm.

Pretty brilliant strategy

I was just saying this to my FIL, but with a different spin. I said Doc Rivers is NOT a great coach with Xs and Os although he is a great motivator with his speeches to players and also a great lobbyist with officials... but as a coach he is very meh. BUT, he has been coaching circles around "Coach Joe." I do not like "Coach Joe"... there has not been even ONE game where afterwards I said 'wow, we wouldn't have won if not for X or Y decision by "Coach Joe"' We should not have re-signed this guy. If we lose, I do not care we re-signed "Coach Joe" we must fire him. You cannot waste this roster/opportunity with a N00B.

[SparzWizard]

I'll certainly believe again if they win Game 6

I do think Game 6 is essentially going to be a Game 7 for both teams. PHI has looked great, but I think even they know they need to wrap this up in 6 at their homecourt and not risk having to go back to Boston for a Game 7. If Boston loses, of course series is over. But if Boston wins Game 6, I think they firmly have the advantage for Game 7.

Even though TD Garden probably is cursed, the C's do very well at home in Game 7s. Won Game 7 against MIL at home last season. I know we dread 2018 ECF Game 7 against Lebron's Cavs, but since 2017 the C's have gone 3-1 in home Game 7s, and I guess 4-1 if you count 2020 Bubble vs. Toronto. Also had the big Game 7 road win last season against Miami. I don't think a Game 7 would scare them. Funny enough, it's the games in-between where they seem to play worse, but they show up in the "backs against the wall" games almost always (the elimination games)

That was technically an away game, @ Raptors. Had virtual Raptor fans and Raptor arena sounds  And in that bubble second-round BOS/TOR, the road team has won all the games. If it wasn't in the bubble environment, we'd been playing in Canada and winning those games since the Raptors had the 2-seed while we were 3-seed.

[Kuberski33]

I think they win Game 6 and it's not particularly close. I think they lose Game 7 at home.

[celts55]

I do believe they will win the next two, and that’s what is so sad. I don’t learn from what has repeatedly happened, just like this team.
Go Celts

[Big333223]

I want to believe but I'm just not feeling it form them this year.

[Ed Monix]

Danny Ainge at home watching tonight’s Celtics game…