Author Topic: Do you still believe  (Read 21526 times)

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Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2023, 09:22:59 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".
I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.
What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #106 on: May 10, 2023, 09:52:40 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".
I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.
What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36


They've got tons of experience. Age shouldn't be a factor at this point.
I suspect there's something deeper that's wrong with the team, because there's too much talent to not be winning titles. 
With JB and JT, the offense should be easy mode, but it struggles if they're not on fire from 3. Something needs to change as they can't just run this back next season and hope for a better result.


Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #107 on: May 10, 2023, 09:59:44 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".
I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.
What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

I think you entirely missed the point.  Nobody is disputing that the Celtics are relatively young.

But how many championships is that core guaranteed?  Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

I mean, the 2012 Thunder made the Finals.  They had 22 year old Ibaka, 22 year old Harden, 23 year old Westbrook and 23 year old Durant.  How many rings did that core win together?


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Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #108 on: May 10, 2023, 10:00:34 AM »

Offline celticinorlando

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This team has multiple ECF and finals experience. They should not be in this position. Last night was unacceptable.

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #109 on: May 10, 2023, 10:21:03 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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This team has multiple ECF and finals experience. They should not be in this position. Last night was unacceptable.

yup. changes are needed before we blow this whole 10 year rebuild.  we were lucky we started making these ECF's whilst Jb and JT are very young. fix this issue now or we will be having the same talk when both are 36! Time to move is now. new coach. new GM if need be. reload/construct the roster for playoffs. fill needs. I am really starting to hate our ownership. trade JB for a proven guy in the playoffs.
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2023, 10:23:48 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I truly still believe if this team has the correct leadership they should be back in finals .

Joe was lost during and after the game .

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2023, 10:26:16 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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I truly still believe if this team has the correct leadership they should be back in finals .

Joe was lost during and after the game .

i loathe joe

i am leaning to loathe brad's soft self

i am about to begin leaning  to loathe wyc
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #112 on: May 10, 2023, 10:42:28 AM »

Offline celticinorlando

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I truly still believe if this team has the correct leadership they should be back in finals .

Joe was lost during and after the game .

Agree. There seems to be no accountability on this team or on court leadership. Just a rudderless ship

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2023, 10:44:56 AM »

Offline Atzar

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A few thoughts here.

Most star players don't win anything until they reach their primes.  Notable exceptions from the last 30 years are Kobe (won at 21 iirc playing next to Shaq), Wade (again, with Shaq), and Duncan (with the Admiral).  Most take much longer.  Giannis won in his eighth year at age 26.  Lebron got his first in year nine after teaming up with Wade and Bosh.  Curry got his first in year six after three years in college.  Durant, year ten.  Garnett, year thirteen.  So struggling to get over the hump at this age is normal, even for players who - let's be honest - are a class above Tatum and Brown as players.

That said, it's absolutely fair to be frustrated at this.  I know I am, to the point where I don't even enjoy watching this team most nights.  There's no guarantee we ever cash in.  I listed several guys who won later than one might "expect"; there's a much longer list of guys who "should have won" and never did.  And none of us want our guys to end up on that list.  Key guys could leave, get hurt, regress, retire, or anything else, and suddenly that window closes.  We have a golden opportunity to win this year in a league with no current juggernaut, and we're on the brink of squandering it. 

I don't think Joe is the biggest problem.  He sure as hell isn't part of the solution, and I would have greatly preferred a coach with more experience to lead this group.  But we're falling victim to the same s*** that has plagued us for the last three seasons, under three coaches.  At some point it's less about the guy on the sideline holding a clipboard and more about what the guys on the court can do to be better than they currently are. 


Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #114 on: May 10, 2023, 10:48:05 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".
I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.
What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

I think you entirely missed the point.  Nobody is disputing that the Celtics are relatively young.

But how many championships is that core guaranteed?  Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

I mean, the 2012 Thunder made the Finals.  They had 22 year old Ibaka, 22 year old Harden, 23 year old Westbrook and 23 year old Durant.  How many rings did that core win together?
Roy, I didn't miss your point at all. You are talking about maximizing the "shots on goal" which is a fair point, but unrealistic.

Quote
Young cores miss out on title success all the time.
is actually my point. There's a reason for that: Lack of veteran leadership.

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #115 on: May 10, 2023, 10:48:06 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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A few thoughts here.

Most star players don't win anything until they reach their primes.  Notable exceptions from the last 30 years are Kobe (won at 21 iirc playing next to Shaq), Wade (again, with Shaq), and Duncan (with the Admiral).  Most take much longer.  Giannis won in his eighth year at age 26.  Lebron got his first in year nine after teaming up with Wade and Bosh.  Curry got his first in year six after three years in college.  Durant, year ten.  Garnett, year thirteen.  So struggling to get over the hump at this age is normal, even for players who - let's be honest - are a class above Tatum and Brown as players.

That said, it's absolutely fair to be frustrated at this.  I know I am, to the point where I don't even enjoy watching this team most nights.  There's no guarantee we ever cash in.  I listed several guys who won later than one might "expect"; there's a much longer list of guys who "should have won" and never did.  And none of us want our guys to end up on that list.  Key guys could leave, get hurt, regress, retire, or anything else, and suddenly that window closes.  We have a golden opportunity to win this year in a league with no current juggernaut, and we're on the brink of squandering it. 

I don't think Joe is the biggest problem.  He sure as hell isn't part of the solution, and I would have greatly preferred a coach with more experience to lead this group.  But we're falling victim to the same s*** that has plagued us for the last three seasons, under three coaches.  At some point it's less about the guy on the sideline holding a clipboard and more about what the guys on the court can do to be better than they currently are.

Right you are. TP.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #116 on: May 10, 2023, 11:00:48 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I think C’s can still win in 7. Philly absolutely took game 5 with hot shooting, hustle, and luck. C’s tried but couldn’t match the intensity. I’ll ride with JT. He’s due for an MVP performance. He did it last year vs Giannis. He’ll do it again
- LilRip

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #117 on: May 10, 2023, 11:19:33 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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Thank God, we filled that 15th spot before the deadline. If it wasn't for that, I'd be really worried now.

Here's the pattern this season:

* Hired a third-string assistant as coach

* Didn't fill Will Hardy's or Joe's assistant coaching positions

* Let large TPE expire for nothing

* Cut payroll over the course of the season

* Let one mid-sized TPE expire and used half of another

* Didn't fill Damon Stoudamire's coaching position

* Didn't fill 15th roster spot from January until April

Does that suggest a team that is going all-in for a championship?

I'm with you Roy!  I don't believe for one bit the Wyc and team were "all in".
I don't disagree, but the real question is "Why"? My guess is this is due to the chronic injury issues with the starting center (who has been made into a backup center) and the full-year injury to the new sharpshooter (Gallo). If I were Wyc, I'm not sure I would go "all in" under these circumstances.  After all, he still has a business to run (that means keeping costs down) and the core of this team is still young, so there's no particular rush to win it all this season.

I don't get the "this team is still young, no there's no particular rush to win it all this season" argument.

Hasn't sports history proven this wrong time and time again? No team is promised future championships, and every missed opportunity is a bad one.

The Celtics are printing money.  Wyc and company are making around $100 million in profit per season, and the team is worth $4.0 billion (or more), fifth in the NBA.  There's really no reason to go cheap.
What's not to get? This is the core:
Tatum 25
Brown 26
Brodgon 30
Smart 29
White 28
Williams III 25
G Williams 24
Pritchard 25
Hauser 25
Horford 36

I think you entirely missed the point.  Nobody is disputing that the Celtics are relatively young.

But how many championships is that core guaranteed?  Young cores miss out on title success all the time.

I mean, the 2012 Thunder made the Finals.  They had 22 year old Ibaka, 22 year old Harden, 23 year old Westbrook and 23 year old Durant.  How many rings did that core win together?
Roy, I didn't miss your point at all. You are talking about maximizing the "shots on goal" which is a fair point, but unrealistic.

Quote
Young cores miss out on title success all the time.
is actually my point. There's a reason for that: Lack of veteran leadership.

These guys ARE the veterans now. They've been to the playoffs every year they've been together.





Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #118 on: May 10, 2023, 11:21:14 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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If we have any chance of winning, we have to get Tatum going early. The last two losses Tatum was ice cold to start, and that set the momentum for the rest of the game. Tatum is absolutely the key. Others can be hot, but he’s the only one that demands the focus and attention of the rest of the defenders, too, and it allows others to feed off of him.

If Joe has any competence in him whatsoever, he would develop some sets to start the game that feature Tatum and let him get going early. Without that we have no shot.
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Re: Do you still believe
« Reply #119 on: May 10, 2023, 11:22:37 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Agreed with the above. Like Moranis has said all season, the team only goes as far as Tatum takes them.

Re: Oklahoma, it's worth pointing out that the Thunder got split up immediately following their Finals loss because ownership was too cheap to retain Harden, who promptly went to Houston. That core never had another chance at a title.
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