Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Goldstar88]

 

Jay King: During one of the third-quarter huddles, Jayson Tatum said Joe Mazzulla told the Celtics to stop feeling sorry for themselves. “It was one of those timeouts, maybe like five minutes left in the third, when we kind of turned it around.”  – via Twitter ByJayKing

[GreenEnvy]

I know it’s been said, but pretty much everyone was saying Kornet was a bad matchup against this team. Only due to him getting injured did he put in Bassett, and we saw how that went.
I have to wonder why he doesn’t see these things, if I can.
Also, why aren’t any of these new and brilliant assistants helping him?

Maybe they are, and maybe they're not as brilliant as we thought they were, if this is the result - a team that is leaderless and has no clue what it is doing and is somehow just bumbling through the playoffs despite an inept coaching staff which could quite possibly rank amongst the worst in the league   

It's time to just admit he's not a bright coach. Anyone, you, me, the guy above me can see that Brissett is a much more impactful player on the floor than Kornet and Joe still uses him. He one of those who stand on the sideline with hands in the pocket watching, but without any clue on how to coach. If Kornet getting abused or Horford is wearing down, I'm throwing in Tillman or Brissett right away to stop the bleeding

Yet there is a reason he still has a job and is on the cusp of an NBA Finals appearance while you're still posting crappy takes on an internet message board.

Funny how that works.

TP.

What a world view that Mazzula is a bad coach and Celtics ownership with millions of dollars on the line isn't smart enough to see it, Brad Stevens with his career as a basketball GM on the line isn't smart enough to see it, but SparzWizard, ozgod, and celts55 on the CS Forum are the people smart enough who have all the answers here and truly understand the big picture of NBA coaching and all of its intricacies.

Joe is fine, but he has made plenty of mistakes. Not playing some of your bench guys a few minutes here and there while your team was running away with the league's best record was just dumb. Knowing what these guys could do with real game experience probably would have helped him go to somebody like Brissett a few games earlier.

I'm not going to go into his use of timeouts or ATOs, but he does seem a little stubborn. I mean, the team won 64 games and he wasn't even a finalist for COTY. We don't all think he is horrible, but he isn't exactly the reason this team is storming through the playoffs. Our opponents have been quite injured. Including opponents we never had to face like MIL and NYK.

Find me a coach who doesn’t make mistakes. Go see what Indiana fans are saying about Carlisle tonight. You think Dallas fans love Kidd?

When the Celtics win, we credit the players. Whenever they lose, it’s Joe’s fault.

He was put into an extremely awkward position last season. I don’t think he ever had the team 100%. But once Brad doubled down, I knew this guy knows basketball. Because Brad does. And I said it then. If Brad believes in him, we all should. And what happened this season, his first with HIS training camp, hasn’t been perfect. But it’s been as close to perfect as any of us could have hoped for.

[ozgod]

Here's what Joe had to say (before Wyc pulls him aside and sacks him on Monday despite us being 1 game from the Finals for giving him - and more importantly us fans - another heart attack by not winning the game by 40):

Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla addressed the media after the Celtics’ win in Game 3. Here are the highlights:

• On how they rallied from down 18: “Poise. I felt like even when it wasn’t going well for us ... we kind of just stay right there (flat-line hand gesture). Al’s kind of the anchor for that, but today, it was everybody.”
• On Jrue Holiday’s big playmaking ability after being questionable with an illness: “I didn’t really manage him that much, I kind of trust him. [He’s] always ready to play, I knew he was going to play just because I have faith and trust him. I thought he played a really good game. That’s a trademark steal that he always gets with an inside hand, he gets that a lot with the guys going down the sideline but this time, he got it in transition.”
• On the Pacers’ final play and shot: “I’m not saying luck, but you need stuff to go your way sometimes.”
• On shooting twice as many threes as the Pacers: “We didn’t go into the game saying we have to double them up in the three point line, we went into the game saying we have to take the best shots as possible … take the shot that’s there. We kept in it by taking the right shot.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/05/25/sports/celtics-pacers-game-live-score-news-injuries-nba-playoffs/

Full interview here, if he's going to get fired on Monday (or should we wait till we make the Finals to fire him to give Sam Cassell or Charles Lee or Jeff van Gundy - the popular choice to replace Joe - to get up to speed with taking over the team) this could become a collectors item interview 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG-1VQVspq8

[ozgod]

I know it’s been said, but pretty much everyone was saying Kornet was a bad matchup against this team. Only due to him getting injured did he put in Bassett, and we saw how that went.
I have to wonder why he doesn’t see these things, if I can.
Also, why aren’t any of these new and brilliant assistants helping him?

Maybe they are, and maybe they're not as brilliant as we thought they were, if this is the result - a team that is leaderless and has no clue what it is doing and is somehow just bumbling through the playoffs despite an inept coaching staff which could quite possibly rank amongst the worst in the league   

It's time to just admit he's not a bright coach. Anyone, you, me, the guy above me can see that Brissett is a much more impactful player on the floor than Kornet and Joe still uses him. He one of those who stand on the sideline with hands in the pocket watching, but without any clue on how to coach. If Kornet getting abused or Horford is wearing down, I'm throwing in Tillman or Brissett right away to stop the bleeding

Yet there is a reason he still has a job and is on the cusp of an NBA Finals appearance while you're still posting crappy takes on an internet message board.

Funny how that works.

TP.

What a world view that Mazzula is a bad coach and Celtics ownership with millions of dollars on the line isn't smart enough to see it, Brad Stevens with his career as a basketball GM on the line isn't smart enough to see it, but SparzWizard, ozgod, and celts55 on the CS Forum are the people smart enough who have all the answers here and truly understand the big picture of NBA coaching and all of its intricacies.

Joe is fine, but he has made plenty of mistakes. Not playing some of your bench guys a few minutes here and there while your team was running away with the league's best record was just dumb. Knowing what these guys could do with real game experience probably would have helped him go to somebody like Brissett a few games earlier.

I'm not going to go into his use of timeouts or ATOs, but he does seem a little stubborn. I mean, the team won 64 games and he wasn't even a finalist for COTY. We don't all think he is horrible, but he isn't exactly the reason this team is storming through the playoffs. Our opponents have been quite injured. Including opponents we never had to face like MIL and NYK.

Find me a coach who doesn’t make mistakes. Go see what Indiana fans are saying about Carlisle tonight. You think Dallas fans love Kidd?

When the Celtics win, we credit the players. Whenever they lose, it’s Joe’s fault.

He was put into an extremely awkward position last season. I don’t think he ever had the team 100%. But once Brad doubled down, I knew this guy knows basketball. Because Brad does. And I said it then. If Brad believes in him, we all should. And what happened this season, his first with HIS training camp, hasn’t been perfect. But it’s been as close to perfect as any of us could have hoped for.

That's exactly what Sparz said! And the funny thing is, both of you are serious, in your own ways 

He looks clueless on the sideline. But as I always say, every Celtics win is winning in spite of Joe.

Any Celtics losses is a factor leading to Joe.

[Donoghus]

He’s flawed but he still has a better record than anyone on this board.

[ozgod]

He’s flawed but he still has a better record than anyone on this board.

Hey now, I'm 82-0 in NBA2k...Beginner level 

[radiohead]

When Al was interviewed after the game, he gave credit to Joe saying he did everything he could to get the players to play the right way and to get them going. We can have our opinions about Joe but if the players are 100% behind him then he must be doing something good.

[ozgod]

Indy coach Carlisle said this after the game:

Trailing 112-111 with 7 seconds left, the ball was in Andrew Nembhard's hands heading up court off a defensive rebound with a chance to win and get the Pacers back in these Eastern Conference finals.

Indiana coach Rick Carlisle decided not to call timeout, and Nembhard had the ball poked away by Jrue Holiday, helping secure the Celtics a 114-111 Game 3 win and a 3-0 series stranglehold.

Nembhard had a monster game with star point guard Tyrese Haliburton sidelined with a hamstring injury. He scored 32 points on 12-of-21 shooting, so rather than calling a timeout and drawing up a play for a game-winning shot, Carlisle opted to let the Pacers attack the Celtics in transition as has been his philosophy in such scenarios for most of the season.

"With eight or nine seconds left and you're in transition after a miss, I trust our players to be able to create a better shot than calling a timeout, having them set their defense and run our end-of-game stuff that on video they've shown their players," Carlisle said. "It's more of a play-basketball type situation. And we've done well this year trusting our players."

Carlisle was trending on X after the game, which usually isn't a good thing. It's been a rough series for Carlisle with criticism piling up. First in Game 1, Carlisle was criticized for not calling timeout late as the Pacers collapsed in the final seconds of an overtime defeat. And in Game 2's lopsided beatdown, it appeared the Pacers coach threw in the towel in the fourth quarter, resting starters and letting seldom-used reserves get extended minutes.

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2024/05/26/rick-carlisle-on-why-he-didnt-call-timeout-at-end-of-pacers-game-3-loss-celtics-nba-playoffs/73860179007/

Has he been taking lessons from Joe??? Isn't this exactly what Joe says for end of game situations? I guess one of those situations where if you win it was a brilliant call to trust the players, if you lose you're an idiot 

[smicker16]

Hey Joe. MORE Tillman + Brissett, less Hauser + Kornet please. Thank you.

I wasn't impressed with Brisett this game, he wasn't doing any of the things that make him worth playing. Tillman on the other hand was awesome. We need to be flexible and play the guys that are actually making a difference in the game.

And that's the one positive in our big man depth, we have guys that are good at different things where if one guys is struggling we have another guy to counter whatever we're having issues with. We need to use that advantage while we have KP missing timr

Hauser is tough to fully remove from the rotation so they gotta get him going. Can’t really play Tillman with Brissett because they are both poor floor spacers. I actually like the idea of rotating between those two and Kornet. All three have weaknesses that can be attacked when game planned for. Think we saw that a bit with Brissett as they were ready to attack his minutes. My guess is we will see that a bit with Tillman too next game so I really like that we played both Brissett and Tillman in separate halves today. Keep the Pacers guessing a bit who the 8th man will be each half.

[ozgod]

The players really do like him and his new age style empowerment touchy feely coaching style...Bobby Knight he definitely ain't. Maybe they know something we don't 

“I didn’t feel too well,” Holiday said. “But it’s Game 3 of the Eastern Conference finals. I wasn’t going to miss this game. It means a lot the trust that [coach Joe Mazzulla] gives me. He allows me to be myself. He’s challenging me to be a better player and a better teammate.”

“I felt like in the first half it caught us by surprise that we were down by that much,” Mazzulla said. “I told them, ‘Fellas, it’s going to happen. It might not be the last time we’re down by double digits.’

“I liked the way we handled that and it was just a test of mindset and toughness. I thought the guys came through big time.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/05/26/sports/sure-they-drive-you-crazy-these-celtics-are-now-one-win-away-nba-finals/?s_campaign=bdc:globewell:trending&s_campaign=bdc:globewell:trending

Still getting fired right after we win the championship though 

[celticinorlando]

Thought Joe took a positive step forward last night.

Every player said he coached his ass off to get them where they needed to be

[liam]

Thought Joe took a positive step forward last night.

Every player said he coached his ass off to get them where they needed to be

He finally trusted the bench a little more. Some of these deep bench guys can give you rest, especially in the first half. I don't feel like we will collapse if they get some run here and there. I still like that the Pacers would have no idea how to deal with Q on the inside... But I don't think Joe goes there. Maybe this last game will be a blowout and those guys can get some reps.

[Surferdad]

Hey Joe. MORE Tillman + Brissett, less Hauser + Kornet please. Thank you.

I wasn't impressed with Brisett this game, he wasn't doing any of the things that make him worth playing. Tillman on the other hand was awesome. We need to be flexible and play the guys that are actually making a difference in the game.

And that's the one positive in our big man depth, we have guys that are good at different things where if one guys is struggling we have another guy to counter whatever we're having issues with. We need to use that advantage while we have KP missing timr

Hauser is tough to fully remove from the rotation so they gotta get him going. Can’t really play Tillman with Brissett because they are both poor floor spacers. I actually like the idea of rotating between those two and Kornet. All three have weaknesses that can be attacked when game planned for. Think we saw that a bit with Brissett as they were ready to attack his minutes. My guess is we will see that a bit with Tillman too next game so I really like that we played both Brissett and Tillman in separate halves today. Keep the Pacers guessing a bit who the 8th man will be each half.

During the game, Doris Burke incorrectly pointed out that playing Tillman with Horford is unusual. In fact, Joe has used them together frequently during the season. Brissett is too small to cover Turner.

[No Nickname]

Yeah, if Joe Finally wakes up the C’s might actually win some games this postseason! Clearly whatever he’s trying to do is not working at all. 

I've got plenty of problems with Joe's decision making, but the team likes the guy.  If we're winning playoff games, I'm not going to complain.

I’m in this boat as well. If the team plays hard for him regardless of his Xs and Os, then i’m fine with that…as long as we’re winning!   The guys seem to really like his approach to the game and the off court relationships as well.

But they don't always play hard for him. In fact, they regularly come out flat for a game or for the second half.
Tatum gives less overall effort when he is struggling to score. He either jogs back after a missed shot or he doesn't jog back at all because he is having a kanipshin due to the officials not calling a foul on his shot or drive. Sure, he does sometimes get fouled and there is not a whistle, but the time to get upset or complain is not when the opponent is coming back with the ball in transition.

They have done this for every coach they have ever played for, so (beyond 'vibes-based reasoning') where is the evidence things would change under another HC?

It's interesting that you say "every coach they have ever played for." 

If you think back from Brad, to Ime, Joe, the only ones who have been here for all of that are Tatum and Brown (and maybe Horford?).

So by "they" you basically saying: "Tatum and Brown have done this for every coach."

That's not a criticism of what you said, just an observation when being more exact.

Unless you mean "Every player on Celtics' squads have performed this way for the past three coaches."

[Phantom255x]

Tillman actually looked like a smooth, smart defensive player out there. Good on the switches, tough defense inside, made life difficult for the Pacers even when they hit their shots (I mean at times Nembhard, McConnell and others were just automatic, not much you can do).

Even though he only finished with 1 rebound, a lot of those rebounds were collected by other players while Tillman did his all in defending the shot and forcing a miss. I still think that's very valuable.