Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[jpotter33]

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2024/01/celtics-need-to-address-concerning-flaw-after-loss-to-pacers-robb.html

Always appreciate Robb holding both the team and Joe accountable for their screw-ups at the end of games. Won’t post the whole article, as it’s open access, but here’s a good snippet:

The Celtics have been the best team in the NBA through 36 games but late-game mismanagement has been a constant through the majority of their losses this year. Given the team’s crunch-time woes in past seasons, this should be a sharp area of focus for Boston in the coming months. If Mazzulla isn’t going to call timeouts in these spots, he has to have his players manage the game well. If All-Stars like Jayson Tatum or Brown aren’t holding for one shot properly or finding the open man, Mazzulla needs to start running the offense through other options (White?) in those spots.

There aren’t many areas of weakness left on this roster through a 28-8 start but questionable decision-making in these critical spots could come back to haunt the Celtics when the pressure ramps up in the postseason.

[Kernewek]

That link doesn't work for me

Since nobody else has said it yet - another poor end-game decision by Joe to not call the timeout there. That JB shot was poor, in tons of traffic, too early, and the same kind of awful shot we have Tatum take in those situations when we don’t run a play. He was lucky/bailed out by the foul call that ended up being questionably overturned.

Not sure how you trust this guy when the games matter when he consistently doesn’t learn from these mistakes. The Pacers are hardly a defensive juggernaut, so you absolutely take the dang timeout there and get a better look at the basket than that, especially given our history of futility in those situations.

I mentioned it in one of the previous game threads ... I was listening to the podcast Mazzula did with JJ Redick before the start of the season and was kinda shocked at how he thought about end of game situations. How he approached them. He said what you want in an end of game situation is the ball in the hands of your best player and them taking the shot.

He was talking also about why he didn't call timeouts in those situations and it was basically well we have the ball in our best guys hands and this is what we want so why would we call a timeout.

There was no difference in terms of shot quality, in terms of location of where your best guy gets the ball, makes his move or takes his shot. You just want the ball in your best guys hands and you will live or die with what he does.

That is all you want down the stretch. Your best guy with the ball making the play. So long as you get that, it is a good possession to end the game.

It seemed like such a ridiculous thing to say and maybe he just didn't clarify his thoughts well on the podcast ... but watching all these games this season and seeing the same thing over and over, I have to take those words as an accurate description of what he believes a good end of game situation is. Best player, ball, let him win or lose the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Best player, ball. Make or break.

I don't know - to me it feels like a pretty sports-standard stock non-answer.

Obviously no one is happy with the play (or surprised by it), but it was a two-point loss where we shot 60% at the line - and where there should have been a shooting foul on that last shot, so I can't get too bothered.

I do wonder, though - do we have more faith in the quality of the ATO play that would get drawn up with a timeout, or the ability of our best guys to generate points within the flow of a possession?

To his credit, Joe has actually been decent at drawing up some ATOs in these situations - highlighted by the Tatum game-winner in Philly. So I absolutely trust the ATO philosophy in that situation, ESPECIALLY against a poor defensive team and with no obvious mismatch out there that we were aiming to exploit.

For sure. I think if Tatum in particular is available, there's a stronger argument for a timeout. Since he wasn't, and since Brown was having such a good game... I can see it. I don't agree, necessarily, but I see it.

As the article points out, Brown's underlying (lack of) court vision is the primary concern here - there's certainly an argument to be made that Mazz shouldn't trust Brown, but I don't know if that helps Jaylen be the best player he can be, either.

In other words - I think that Mazz saying words in public to the effect of "we trusted Jaylen to make the shot, and not every shot goes in" is almost certainly better for the morale of the player and the team than "he's never reliably made good decisions, and I dropped the ball by not calling a time out", which may very well be his private thoughts. We can say that as fans, but he pretty clearly can't say that to reporters as the head coach.

[Atzar]

Not sure where to put this, but since it's related to coaching I'll stick it here. 

I'm curious how thorough a team's scouting department is expected to be when preparing for a regular season matchup.  For example, we clearly had a gameplan to throw at Haliburton, but I got the sense that we didn't really know what to do with their offense after he exited the game.  It looked like we played the rest of the game on our heels. 

And this isn't the first time I've noticed this.  Against Golden State last month, I had the distinct sense that our guys had no idea who Trayce Jackson-Davis even was.  Further back we can talk about the Patrick Beverley game (though we escaped with the win there, thankfully), or a number of games last season where the other team was missing somebody important and mauled us anyway (the OKC 150-piece without Shai comes to mind). 

Just something that has been nagging at me for a bit.  FWIW I get the sense that other teams share these problems (the Grizzlies beat the Suns without Morant a couple of days ago, for example, and we've won various games despite missing key pieces this season).  So it's not even just us. 

[Goldstar88]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

[Roy H.]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

Joe will probably play a role in most close games, no?

[Goldstar88]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

Joe will probably play a role in most close games, no?

I’d say some vs most. Last night for example, I think the officials had a much larger role in deciding the game than Joe did.

[green_bballers13]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

Joe will probably play a role in most close games, no?

Has there ever been a poster that has praised Joe after a game? I don't remember seeing one single post that said "glad Joe bailed us out there".

So the players are responsible when they win, and Joe is responsible when they lose. We can't judge Joe by the Celtics results with a win, but its open season when they lose.

Teams don't generally win when they shoot less than 70% from the line. The Celtics did so and lost by 2 points last night. Let's try to be somewhat objective.

[Roy H.]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

Joe will probably play a role in most close games, no?

I’d say some vs most. Last night for example, I think the officials had a much larger role in deciding the game than Joe did.

I think that's the crux of a lot of the arguments:  there's a disconnect between those who criticize Joe for having some role in losses, and those who defend Joe for not having the only / primary role in losses.

[green_bballers13]

If the Celtics don't win the championship, it won't be because of the referees, the coaches, or the popcorn vendors... the basketball players will determine what happens.

[Roy H.]

If the Celtics don't win the championship, it won't be because of the referees, the coaches, or the popcorn vendors... the basketball players will determine what happens.

If this is true, why do teams hire / fire coaches? 

I think people can legitimately disagree regarding whether a coach affects outcomes by 5% or 15% (for example), but I don't think that arguing that they have no impact on playoff winning makes sense. 

[green_bballers13]

If the Celtics don't win the championship, it won't be because of the referees, the coaches, or the popcorn vendors... the basketball players will determine what happens.

If this is true, why do teams hire / fire coaches? 

I think people can legitimately disagree regarding whether a coach affects outcomes by 5% or 15% (for example), but I don't think that arguing that they have no impact on playoff winning makes sense.

It's a good question. I think it's easier to fire a coach than a team of players.

 I think NBA coaching is super overrated. The best coaches had the best players.

And yes, they have an impact on winning, but I think it's pretty small. I don't know how to quantify it.

[Vermont Green]

I think the main criticism from the IND game last night was that he didn't call time out during the last possession.  We only had 1 TO left I believe.  Call time out and you get to set your team but the defense gets to set too.  And you would be out of TO so no way to advance the ball if there was one more possession.

I don't know if that was a bad call or not.  If someone hits a shot, it is forgotten, we lose, and it is discussed for a week.  Bottom line is we had a final possession but no Tatum, our main final possession guy.  I get the feeling that anything short of someone hitting a shot, and Mazzulla would be criticized.

He has been a good coach for this team this year, and was pretty good last season under the circumstances.  The team is playing hard and playing the right way.  They appear bought in.  Only 35 3PA vs. IND, that seems about right to me.  I don't understand what problem or issue there is that people want to fix with a new coach.

[jpotter33]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

Well, I mean, that is what you do when coaches/players regularly make awful decisions that impact the game’s outcome - you critique them.

But, once again, you’re wrong and exaggerating my position. You *literally* only have to go back to our last loss against OKC to find a time that I didn’t bump this thread and blame Joe. And why is that? Because I didn’t perceive him to be instrumental in that loss. Sure, he had some questionable rotations with the double big lineup and the final play when the game was already lost was questionable, but he wasn’t in my eyes materially responsible in some significant fashion to the loss. OKC just beat us by playing over their heads. But games like last night and the GSW loss where Joe’s incompetency is on display due to his poor end-game decision-making? Absolutely I’m going to highlight it.

If anything, the Joe apologists are the extreme ones when they do nothing but defend and absolve him and claim coaching has minimal impact on losses. That’s absurd, especially when he makes the same mistakes over and over and over again that are plain to see.

[green_bballers13]

I'm sticking with the celebrity factor.

People want a coach that they've heard of. The Patriots will go through the same thing. Many fans prefer to have someone recognizable like Mike Vrabel than Ben Johnson or Bobby Slowik.

I think this is human nature. Movie producers love to showcase over-the-hill actors/actresses for name recognition.

[green_bballers13]

If only Joe had reminded the players to make their free throws and play defense. What a shame…

This is where the Joe apologism is so irrational and frustrating.

All of that can be true - we missed free throws and played lackadaisical defense in the third - but that still doesn’t absolve him of his mistake or release his contribution to this loss. Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is where your constant complaining and scapegoating of the coach is frustrating. You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.

Jared Weiss: Buddy Hield wouldn’t share what he told Joe Mazzulla, but said that he made some contact with Jaylen Brown yet the officials and replay center made the decision.  – via Twitter JaredWeissNBA

“You trying to put every loss on Joe is just laughable.”

It helps to actually read the posts that you’re responding to, Goldy.

Nobody said he was the only or even primary reason for this loss, but he absolutely played a role and screwed up in this situation, which highlights why many people don’t trust him in the playoffs and end-game situations when he’s just not shown any growth or improvement and continues to dogmatically hold on to a futile philosophy.

This is textbook apologism on a very reasonable and measured critique of Joe, and why your kind of radical position on Joe is unserious.

I’m talking in general here. As sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, Potter will bump this thread after every loss and blame Joe. It’s like clockwork at this point.

If anything, the Joe apologists are the extreme ones when they do nothing but defend and absolve him and claim coaching has minimal impact on losses. That’s absurd, especially when he makes the same mistakes over and over and over again that are plain to see.

Is there anything you like about Joe, or is it all bad?