Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Celtics2021]

On the first page of this thread there was a lot of pining for Frank Vogel, which has worked out great for Phoenix.  Last year I know people also in turn wished for Quinn Snyder (his honeymoon in Atlanta has ended quickly) and that we hadn’t let Will Hardy get away to Utah (I’m not sure what their expectations were this year, but a 13-19 record isn’t awe-inducing).

I’m not quite sure what people think an alternative universe with a different coach looks like.  I also don’t know why people don’t think he’s doing a better job this year, or for those who concede it, why they’re surprised.  He was thrown into a terrible situation, head coach with a bunch of assistants who never signed up to work for him, and players who were left in the dark by upper management as to why a change was made.  After a year of trial by fire, with a summer to prepare, assistants who want to work with him, and some roster shake-ups (including a couple of the loudest voices gone), the whole team looks more bought in.  What do people think firing Joe would accomplish?

[Roy H.]

On the first page of this thread there was a lot of pining for Frank Vogel, which has worked out great for Phoenix.  Last year I know people also in turn wished for Quinn Snyder (his honeymoon in Atlanta has ended quickly) and that we hadn’t let Will Hardy get away to Utah (I’m not sure what their expectations were this year, but a 13-19 record isn’t awe-inducing).

I’m not quite sure what people think an alternative universe with a different coach looks like.  I also don’t know why people don’t think he’s doing a better job this year, or for those who concede it, why they’re surprised.  He was thrown into a terrible situation, head coach with a bunch of assistants who never signed up to work for him, and players who were left in the dark by upper management as to why a change was made.  After a year of trial by fire, with a summer to prepare, assistants who want to work with him, and some roster shake-ups (including a couple of the loudest voices gone), the whole team looks more bought in.  What do people think firing Joe would accomplish?

You forgot Nick Nurse.

People want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached in the playoffs, and they expect he will be again.

[Kernewek]

For one thing, it would make them feel better about their ability to assess the skills of NBA head coaches.

I don't think it's eniterly unfalsifiable, though.

Monty Williams is, by all accounts, a good head coach. His team is awful. Pop is, by all accounts, a good coach. His team is awful. Some of the discussion around how coaches and coaching matters has been quieter, specifically about the impact of a good coach on a team's win/loss record since this season started compared to the offseason - no surprise there - but that doesn't mean that coaching doesn't matter, either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and so on.

[SparzWizard]

This winning streak still doesn't change my mind that Joe should be fired. ATO plays need to improve and getting his boys together esp against the scrubs of the league.

I don't want the saying of Stephen A. Smith to be true being applied to the Celtics "Just you wait...they are an accident waiting to happen". I want this team disciplined and playing all 48 minutes and playing smart fundamental basketball. If this team is up 20-25 in the 4th quarter, then you pull your core in and throw in the bench.

[ozgod]

So Joe is still getting fired in the morning because his ATO plays suck?

[Moranis]

On the first page of this thread there was a lot of pining for Frank Vogel, which has worked out great for Phoenix.  Last year I know people also in turn wished for Quinn Snyder (his honeymoon in Atlanta has ended quickly) and that we hadn’t let Will Hardy get away to Utah (I’m not sure what their expectations were this year, but a 13-19 record isn’t awe-inducing).

I’m not quite sure what people think an alternative universe with a different coach looks like.  I also don’t know why people don’t think he’s doing a better job this year, or for those who concede it, why they’re surprised.  He was thrown into a terrible situation, head coach with a bunch of assistants who never signed up to work for him, and players who were left in the dark by upper management as to why a change was made.  After a year of trial by fire, with a summer to prepare, assistants who want to work with him, and some roster shake-ups (including a couple of the loudest voices gone), the whole team looks more bought in.  What do people think firing Joe would accomplish?

You forgot Nick Nurse.

People want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached in the playoffs, and they expect he will be again.

I mean Spo is the best coach in the game, he wildly outcoaches pretty much everyone.

[green_bballers13]

I think the Celtics would have the best record in the league and would be undefeated at home (going into January!!) if they only had a good coach.

[Vermont Green]

On the first page of this thread there was a lot of pining for Frank Vogel, which has worked out great for Phoenix.  Last year I know people also in turn wished for Quinn Snyder (his honeymoon in Atlanta has ended quickly) and that we hadn’t let Will Hardy get away to Utah (I’m not sure what their expectations were this year, but a 13-19 record isn’t awe-inducing).

I’m not quite sure what people think an alternative universe with a different coach looks like.  I also don’t know why people don’t think he’s doing a better job this year, or for those who concede it, why they’re surprised.  He was thrown into a terrible situation, head coach with a bunch of assistants who never signed up to work for him, and players who were left in the dark by upper management as to why a change was made.  After a year of trial by fire, with a summer to prepare, assistants who want to work with him, and some roster shake-ups (including a couple of the loudest voices gone), the whole team looks more bought in.  What do people think firing Joe would accomplish?

You forgot Nick Nurse.

People want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached in the playoffs, and they expect he will be again.

You say that as if it is an absolute truth.  "Wildly outcoached" is pretty strong.  I am not sure how you can prove that or quantify that.  What I saw happen was a team that never quite understood why their coach was fired, finally let the whole thing affect them on the court (remember that Udoka signed with HOU during the playoffs).  Then there was this team of nobodies that suddenly everyone was hitting 50% from 3.  Was that a result of coaching?

The title of the thread is "fire Joe"; that is the question.  Not whether or not he is the best coach in the league or the best coach ever.  I think it would be dumb to fire Mazzulla and I doubt very much that there is any chance it will happen.  But coaching is a "what have you done for me lately" profession, as it should be. 

So far this season, I am happy with the coaching; with how the team appears to be responding to the coaching.  If we face another team in the playoffs where everyone on their bench shoots 50% from 3, we may lose again.  And people will scream Joe was out coached, he should have called more time outs, and so on.  And I may change my opinion of Mazzulla.  We'll see.

Short of that though, I don't really see some opposing coach beating us, knocking us out of the playoffs "outcoaching" our coach.  I don't think that was the case vs. Miami last season and I don't off hand recall any playoff series ever that was clearly decided by coaching; by one coach being so much better than the opposing coach, that lesser players rose up and defeated the other team because of coaching.

Popovich is perhaps the best coach of this generation, and how is that working out for SAN?  Has he been getting outcoached these last few seasons?  The question to ask regarding Popovich or any other coach is if the players are responding to the coach's voice still.  Once you lose that, you either need a new coach or new players.  The Celtics are not near that point right now.  I believe there were some issues during the MIA series but they appear to have gotten past that.

[green_bballers13]

The Fire Joe take is unreasonable. Essentially, win the NBA championship or get fired. Some fans think this roster is too good (they are not) to not win a ring. They deserved to lose that series vs the Warriors, and deserved to lose against the Heat. If they played Denver, I think they would have lost to Jokic as well.

This is a good team. They have not achieved greatness yet. Tatum, JB, and Porzingis need to step it up. Blaming the coach is the easy solution.

[Wretch]

On the first page of this thread there was a lot of pining for Frank Vogel, which has worked out great for Phoenix.  Last year I know people also in turn wished for Quinn Snyder (his honeymoon in Atlanta has ended quickly) and that we hadn’t let Will Hardy get away to Utah (I’m not sure what their expectations were this year, but a 13-19 record isn’t awe-inducing).

I’m not quite sure what people think an alternative universe with a different coach looks like.  I also don’t know why people don’t think he’s doing a better job this year, or for those who concede it, why they’re surprised.  He was thrown into a terrible situation, head coach with a bunch of assistants who never signed up to work for him, and players who were left in the dark by upper management as to why a change was made.  After a year of trial by fire, with a summer to prepare, assistants who want to work with him, and some roster shake-ups (including a couple of the loudest voices gone), the whole team looks more bought in.  What do people think firing Joe would accomplish?

You forgot Nick Nurse.

People want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached in the playoffs, and they expect he will be again.

I mean Spo is the best coach in the game, he wildly outcoaches pretty much everyone.

I think out coached may be an over simplification.  Spo is a great coach and his skill definitely contributed to the series loss but let's not forget that a bunch of Heat bench players shot lights out for the series and JT got hurt minutes into game 7.  With typical shooting from those Heat players the C's win the series. 

[Kuberski33]

I'm coming around on Joe. These guys compete every night regardless of who's playing or who's sitting out. He's integrated Porzingis and Holiday (granted that's not hard, because they're both very good players). The fringe guys - when they play - all seem to integrate really well. And the team is playing great.

The coach needs to get some credit for that. He may well have learned from his mistakes last season - though it helps that he has a solid coaching staff behind him apparently. Biggest thing is all the players have bought in. That's part of how you judge a coach.

[tenn_smoothie]

Joe's offensive philosophy has not changed - and relying on 40+ three-pointers a game is not a winning formula in the playoffs.
When the 3's are not falling, we still don't go to other options even with the addition of Porzingis and having three very good facilitators.
Less emphasis on defense is also not a winning formula in the playoffs.

You can applaud the regular season all you want - the playoffs are the bottom line to me.

[Big333223]

The Fire Joe take is unreasonable. Essentially, win the NBA championship or get fired. Some fans think this roster is too good (they are not) to not win a ring. They deserved to lose that series vs the Warriors, and deserved to lose against the Heat. If they played Denver, I think they would have lost to Jokic as well.

This is a good team. They have not achieved greatness yet. Tatum, JB, and Porzingis need to step it up. Blaming the coach is the easy solution.

Looking over this thread, I can imagine the Celtics winning a championship and the next day there will be calls to fire Joe because there's no way they'll repeat with such a bad coach.

[Silas]

People want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached in the playoffs, and they expect he will be again.

I mean Spo is the best coach in the game, he wildly outcoaches pretty much everyone.

A couple of thoughts as we close out 2023: 

First, Roy, who are these people that want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached and what makes them so smart?

Second, Mo, I've been hearing all this praise about Spo for years about how he is the best and he "wildly" outcoaches pretty much everyone.  I decided to look at his record...
He is currently in his 15th year as a head coach, with 2 NBA championships (2011/12 and 2012/13), both with James, Bosh, and Wade.  Spo lost his first 3 attempts in the playoffs before he finally won in 2011/12.  I remember there was a lot of chatter about how bad he was as a head coach and some of his players complained about his coaching style and there was talk about bringing Riley back as coach.  Anyway, Spoelstra's record as the "best coach in the game" is the following:
2 NBA championships
4 losses in the NBA finals
1 loss in conference semis
1 loss in conference finals
4 losses in conference first round
3 missed playoffs

Let's give Joe a little more time before we bury him.   

Happy New Year to all, and let's get #18.

[Moranis]

People want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached in the playoffs, and they expect he will be again.

I mean Spo is the best coach in the game, he wildly outcoaches pretty much everyone.

A couple of thoughts as we close out 2023: 

First, Roy, who are these people that want Joe gone because he was wildly outcoached and what makes them so smart?

Second, Mo, I've been hearing all this praise about Spo for years about how he is the best and he "wildly" outcoaches pretty much everyone.  I decided to look at his record...
He is currently in his 15th year as a head coach, with 2 NBA championships (2011/12 and 2012/13), both with James, Bosh, and Wade.  Spo lost his first 3 attempts in the playoffs before he finally won in 2011/12.  I remember there was a lot of chatter about how bad he was as a head coach and some of his players complained about his coaching style and there was talk about bringing Riley back as coach.  Anyway, Spoelstra's record as the "best coach in the game" is the following:
2 NBA championships
4 losses in the NBA finals
1 loss in conference semis
1 loss in conference finals
4 losses in conference first round
3 missed playoffs

Let's give Joe a little more time before we bury him.   

Happy New Year to all, and let's get #18.

Spo's record since Lebron has been awesome given the talent of his team.  No clear cut top 10 player (Wade tailed off quickly and Butler has been borderline top 10), and no top 5 player.  Since Butler joined, they've made the Finals twice with a just borderline top 10 player, a top 25 player, and a whole bunch of flawed mid-tier type players.  That is an amazing record.  Spo is a fantastic coach far exceeding reasonable expectations and creating a real culture where everyone buys in.