Author Topic: Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching  (Read 264031 times)

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Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #195 on: May 07, 2023, 09:26:02 PM »

Offline Indocelts

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When was the last time Joe set up a last second game winning play?

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #196 on: May 07, 2023, 09:48:34 PM »

Offline gouki88

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This is all so ridiculous.  If Harden misses the 3 or if Tatum scores at the end, it’s all about how gritty of a win it was when they weren’t at their best and how they fought back and weathered monster performances by Embiid and Harden. 

Aside from Jaylen, the Celtics played like garbage in the first half and Harden was lights out.  They still were in position to win on multiple occasions, but they couldn’t close it out.

I hate the fact that Joe harps on three point shooting, but when the Celtics are playing to their potential, they play great basketball on both sides of the floor.  Some of it is coaching, but the majority is the talent on the floor.  But we can’t have it both ways; if the talent doesn’t perform, it’s not always the fault of the coaching.

I would put it like this:  the players' job is to play.  Joe's job is to put them in the best position to succeed.  Neither did a great job today.
I would say that the latter very, very rarely does his job well.

This off-season I will be crying at the thought of Nick Nurse with this roster
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #197 on: May 07, 2023, 09:53:33 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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shoulda kept joe as interim only

then when we saw nurse available grab him or get him on retainer asap.

brad crapped the bed.

i hope wyc has a come to jesus meeting with this whole crew
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #198 on: May 07, 2023, 10:23:36 PM »

Online Redz

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The no time out philosophy can’t be 100% of the time.  That was such a backbreaker of a shot by Harden.  Call the [dang] timeout.
Yup

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #199 on: May 07, 2023, 11:01:43 PM »

Offline Mahk E Mahk

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I don’t blame Joe for any of these issues, you simply don’t put a rookie head coach in this situation.

I blame either Brad Stevens or Wyc Grousbeck.

If Stevens had complete autonomy in his coaching selections, these issues are his fault. Perhaps if Wyc limited his spending power because Udoka was still on the books then I can understand giving the reigns to Mazzulla.

For an organization that prides itself on its analytical decisions…when has a rookie NBA coach in his 30’s succeeded? Not to mention Mazzulla’s only HC experience is for a College Div II team (for two seasons). When you factor in that the team is in win now mode, it’s actually crazy they would put him in this situation.

Frank Vogel should have been the Celtics head coach, with the stipulation that Mazzulla stays on as his head assistant.

Vogel has over 20 years of NBA coaching experience & 10 plus as a head coach. He achieved amazing results with the Indiana Pacers and only struggled when they had long term injuries to Paul George & George Hill. His defensive schemes are exactly what this team needed. Just look what he did for the Lakers.

this is an excellent post. tp to you, sir.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #200 on: May 08, 2023, 12:07:31 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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The no time out philosophy can’t be 100% of the time.  That was such a backbreaker of a shot by Harden.  Call the [dang] timeout.

Yep. This. He just dogmatic and stubborn and refuses to adjust or change, even with all the evidence that his philosophy simply doesn’t work for this group. If he’s going to be in this role, he has to grow up and adjust from his many mistakes, not keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #201 on: May 08, 2023, 12:13:34 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/05/joe-mazzulla-repeats-crucial-blunder-in-celtics-game-4-loss-to-76ers.html

Brian Robb does a great job holding Joe accountable in the press for these repeated mistakes.

Just baffling that we went with Joe given how green he is, which has been on full display all season long with his in-game ineptness.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #202 on: May 08, 2023, 12:16:35 AM »

Offline blink

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The no time out philosophy can’t be 100% of the time.  That was such a backbreaker of a shot by Harden.  Call the [dang] timeout.

Yep. This. He just dogmatic and stubborn and refuses to adjust or change, even with all the evidence that his philosophy simply doesn’t work for this group. If he’s going to be in this role, he has to grow up and adjust from his many mistakes, not keep making the same mistakes over and over.

I still think refusing to call time out at both the end of regulation and at the end of overtime were mistakes.  Especially the one at the end of regulation.  We were in the bonus, and yet we don't set up a play that gets someone moving to the rim.  All we needed was 1 freaking FT.  Put the onus on the refs to call it and hit one ft.  Yes we needed to move players around the perimeter to not clog the lane, but call the timeout, get your best shooters in, and either set up a play to get the ball to JT, JB, or Al going to the rim.  Get our guys a quick rest as well.  FOCUS on what they have to do.  We basically surrendered our advantage at that point by letting Philly off the hook by dancing around and then jacking up another 3.  It hardly ever works for us in these situations.   Philly was out of timeouts....they couldn't advance the ball.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 12:22:43 AM by blink »

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #203 on: May 08, 2023, 12:24:39 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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Not sure this is a Joe issue or not, but....

FGA's+FTA's total in the 4th quarter this series.

Smart: 15+8, Tatum: 11+12, Brogdon: 13+6, Brown: 8+2

Why is it that othe WORST offensive guard is taking the biggest shar of the offense in the 4th quarter? Why can't wthey get Browmn more involved?

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #204 on: May 08, 2023, 01:27:22 AM »

Offline Indocelts

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JB owned up to his mistake for the Harden's shot, but Joe has to share the blame too. It is his duty to inform his players about the situation and instruct  the defensive scheme, i.e. not to let a 3 point shot.

I have never seen a coach with as little involvement in crunch time as Joe, both offensively and defensively. He needs to stop his disappearing act in crunch time.

Please Joe, don't pull a Houdini on the Cs again.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #205 on: May 08, 2023, 01:34:47 AM »

Online RodyTur10

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Not sure this is a Joe issue or not, but....

FGA's+FTA's total in the 4th quarter this series.

Smart: 15+8, Tatum: 11+12, Brogdon: 13+6, Brown: 8+2

Why is it that othe WORST offensive guard is taking the biggest shar of the offense in the 4th quarter? Why can't wthey get Browmn more involved?

Smart has always done that. Taking the big shots during crunch time.
Obviously the opponent is also leaving him open often, thus it's not necessarily a bad shot.

But that's why I'd play White and/or Brogdon over Smart for the last possessions.
In particular for a last shot of which we had two opportunities yesterday to win the game.

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #206 on: May 08, 2023, 02:30:42 AM »

Offline ozgod

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The Jays have both made mea culpas for their errors that contributed to the loss.

Quote
With the Celtics holding a 2-point lead with 26.4 seconds left in overtime the 76ers had 12 seconds left on the shot clock. Joel Embiid got the ball in the paint and attacked the rim. Jaylen Brown left James Harden, who had already hit five 3-pointers, alone in the corner. Embiid dribbled toward Jayson Tatum, sucked in Brown on help, then flipped the ball to Harden in front of the 76ers’ bench. Swish. Philadelphia was up by 1.

“I take full accountability,” Brown said of leaving Harden alone. “It was a bad read. It was my fault.”

With 19 seconds left and two timeouts, and we all know how Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla savors timeouts like silver dollars, the Celtics opted to not stop play and advance the ball.

Marcus Smart dribbled the ball slowly up the floor and lobbed it to Tatum with less than eight seconds left. Tatum needed to go fast. The 76ers were out of fouls. He’s one of the more prolific scorers in the NBA. This was his time to shine.

Instead, Tatum called for a Derrick White screen on Tobias Harris so he could attack the smaller Tyrese Maxey. With three seconds left, Tatum drove to the left, but Embiid approached and Tatum found Smart on the elbow for an open 3-pointer.

It was the right read; the Celtics preach ball movement to the open man, but it was far too late. Smart and Tatum both took too long. Smart’s rushed 3-pointer went in, but after the buzzer, adding insult to poor execution.

“I waited a second too late,” Tatum acknowledged. “When Embiid came over, I tried to kick it out but I probably should have went (accelerated) a dribble or two earlier. I was just trying to make the right play, find the open man.”

Mazzulla was back to his “Joe Cool” personality when asked about the final sequence.

“Jayson made the right play, we just have to play with a little bit more pace,” he said. “Just made the right read, which I thought we did. We got Maxey in the pick-and-roll and he made the right play, just didn’t play fast enough.

“That was a great playoff basketball game. I thought we did a good job sticking with it. We played on the road and a chance to go up 3-1, the game went exactly how I thought it would go and we just didn’t make enough plays down the stretch.”

He was asked about regrets over late-game execution.

“No, it was great execution.”

So Brown admitted fault, Tatum admitted fault, and Mazzulla essentially says, “nothing to see here, we played it perfectly.” Meanwhile, Magic Johnson, who is as congenial on social media as Mr. Rogers, criticized Mazzulla on Twitter for not calling a timeout.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/05/07/sports/after-holding-his-timeouts-again-joe-mazzulla-needs-accept-his-share-blame-celtics-game-5-loss/

So Joe doubled down...though if you think about it, apologies and my bads are really meaningless...as long as they learn from this then it won't have been a waste. Joe has proven to be stubborn. Maybe he will stick to his guns because he doesn't want his guys to think he doesn't trust them, to the detriment of the team as a whole.

I would have been ok with not calling a timeout IF they had gone fast, and if they had been organized. They weren't fast, it took 15 seconds for Smart to get the ball to Tatum and for Tatum to start driving the ball and there was only 6 seconds left at that point. You'd assume they run all kinds of short clock scenarios that there's any number of plays they could have used, but they had to go quick. That's the only reason you would not call a timeout, because you want to run and catch the opposition off guard and not give them time to set, like we did with Tatum's last second shot to win a playoff game vs Brooklyn last year. That was a great example of how to go quick without a timeout because the defense was backpedaling and not organized. What we saw tonight wasn't organized, it just looked like it was going to be another iso high screen drive and kick that took too long to execute. At that point you'd think the net gain from calling a timeout to make sure everyone knows what to do and when, despite having to deal with Philly's best defensive lineup, would be greater than freestyling a play because all the advantage from speed had been lost anyway.

It's now a best of 3 but I still like our chances. But they need to take some of these lessons to heart, these possessions are too important.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 02:51:51 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #207 on: May 08, 2023, 03:08:15 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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The Jays have both made mea culpas for their errors that contributed to the loss.

Quote
With the Celtics holding a 2-point lead with 26.4 seconds left in overtime the 76ers had 12 seconds left on the shot clock. Joel Embiid got the ball in the paint and attacked the rim. Jaylen Brown left James Harden, who had already hit five 3-pointers, alone in the corner. Embiid dribbled toward Jayson Tatum, sucked in Brown on help, then flipped the ball to Harden in front of the 76ers’ bench. Swish. Philadelphia was up by 1.

“I take full accountability,” Brown said of leaving Harden alone. “It was a bad read. It was my fault.”

With 19 seconds left and two timeouts, and we all know how Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla savors timeouts like silver dollars, the Celtics opted to not stop play and advance the ball.

Marcus Smart dribbled the ball slowly up the floor and lobbed it to Tatum with less than eight seconds left. Tatum needed to go fast. The 76ers were out of fouls. He’s one of the more prolific scorers in the NBA. This was his time to shine.

Instead, Tatum called for a Derrick White screen on Tobias Harris so he could attack the smaller Tyrese Maxey. With three seconds left, Tatum drove to the left, but Embiid approached and Tatum found Smart on the elbow for an open 3-pointer.

It was the right read; the Celtics preach ball movement to the open man, but it was far too late. Smart and Tatum both took too long. Smart’s rushed 3-pointer went in, but after the buzzer, adding insult to poor execution.

“I waited a second too late,” Tatum acknowledged. “When Embiid came over, I tried to kick it out but I probably should have went (accelerated) a dribble or two earlier. I was just trying to make the right play, find the open man.”

Mazzulla was back to his “Joe Cool” personality when asked about the final sequence.

“Jayson made the right play, we just have to play with a little bit more pace,” he said. “Just made the right read, which I thought we did. We got Maxey in the pick-and-roll and he made the right play, just didn’t play fast enough.

“That was a great playoff basketball game. I thought we did a good job sticking with it. We played on the road and a chance to go up 3-1, the game went exactly how I thought it would go and we just didn’t make enough plays down the stretch.”

He was asked about regrets over late-game execution.

“No, it was great execution.”

So Brown admitted fault, Tatum admitted fault, and Mazzulla essentially says, “nothing to see here, we played it perfectly.” Meanwhile, Magic Johnson, who is as congenial on social media as Mr. Rogers, criticized Mazzulla on Twitter for not calling a timeout.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/05/07/sports/after-holding-his-timeouts-again-joe-mazzulla-needs-accept-his-share-blame-celtics-game-5-loss/

So Joe doubled down...though if you think about it, apologies and my bads are really meaningless...as long as they learn from this then it won't have been a waste. Joe has proven to be stubborn. Maybe he will stick to his guns because he doesn't want his guys to think he doesn't trust them, to the detriment of the team as a whole.

I would have been ok with not calling a timeout IF they had gone fast, and if they had been organized. They weren't fast, it took 15 seconds for Smart to get the ball to Tatum and for Tatum to start driving the ball and there was only 6 seconds left at that point. You'd assume they run all kinds of short clock scenarios that there's any number of plays they could have used, but they had to go quick. That's the only reason you would not call a timeout, because you want to run and catch the opposition off guard and not give them time to set, like we did with Tatum's last second shot to win a playoff game vs Brooklyn last year. That was a great example of how to go quick without a timeout because the defense was backpedaling and not organized. What we saw tonight wasn't organized, it just looked like it was going to be another iso high screen drive and kick that took too long to execute. At that point you'd think the net gain from calling a timeout to make sure everyone knows what to do and when, despite having to deal with Philly's best defensive lineup, would be greater than freestyling a play because all the advantage from speed had been lost anyway.

It's now a best of 3 but I still like our chances. But they need to take some of these lessons to heart, these possessions are too important.

That was the worst coaching decision I've ever seen in my life. You take a timeout to advance the ball at the frontcourt, all day everyday. Why let them dribble down the court from 18 secs with like 7 seconds left? And if you gonna have Smart shoot that, might as well put in Brogdon instead.

Yeah, Tatum and Brown are also to be blamed but that's their own issues. But Joe as a coach spewing that nonsense is unacceptable.

Now we're back at the dreaded TD Garden on a best of 3, where that place has been cursed all year long. I'd feel safer for this team playing at Wells Fargo Arena instead the rest of the series.


#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown)
#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)

Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #208 on: May 08, 2023, 06:32:06 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The no time out philosophy can’t be 100% of the time.  That was such a backbreaker of a shot by Harden.  Call the [dang] timeout.

His ATO plays have been bad  and you'd be ripping him when that failed.    I think we should have ran a play as our offense was stagnant but a PG can call that as well.


Re: Fire Joe!
« Reply #209 on: May 08, 2023, 08:00:41 AM »

Online Redz

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The no time out philosophy can’t be 100% of the time.  That was such a backbreaker of a shot by Harden.  Call the [dang] timeout.

His ATO plays have been bad  and you'd be ripping him when that failed.    I think we should have ran a play as our offense was stagnant but a PG can call that as well.

We got a couple of clean hoops out of time outs yesterday.  Even if you did not draw up a play, it was a spot to gather your team together.   
Yup