Trae Young, Overrated? Or Just Hated?

[footey]

I have regained respect for Trae.  He is pretty unstoppable when he is feeling it on offense. Both as a scorer and a passer.

I know we all criticize his defense, but honestly the Celtics did practically nothing all series to take advantage of it. When guys were covered by him, more often than not they passed to another player. There was very little effort to post him which shocked me.  So for all his so called weakness on defense, that did not seem to factor into this series much at all.  It was almost that guys were afraid of attacking him one on one and drawing an offensive foul, which he is quite good a drawing.

[Vermont Green]

I don't think we saw anything unexpected out of Trae Young.  As an every day player, he's probably around the 15th to 20th best player in the NBA.  In general, he's an inefficient chucker who doesn't play defense.  His teammates don't like him.  But, as we've seen before and we just saw, he can go on hot streaks where he can take over a playoff series and can win games by himself.

Trae Young can win you two games, but he can also lose you four.

Very true.  The only caveat I'd add is, in the right series he can win a team four games, like when he carried the Hawks to the ECF.  He's just not a guy who can be counted on to do so.

For sure.  If he goes on heaters for four games instead of two in a series, the Hawks can win.  His shots are so ridiculous that they don't fall every night, however.  I'm glad to have that chaos in the rear-view mirror.

That year that they beat PHI (2021) and went to the ECF, Gallinari was playing great for them (15 pts on 44% 3pt) in the PHI series.  Collins was also a different player (15 pts, 10 rebs, 39% 3pt in the series).  Trae Young was the main scorer but inefficiently as always.  I don't think the difference between that team and this team is so much Trae Young.  Rather Collins and Gallinari.

I don't know how much of a "misfit" there is with Young and Murray.  That kind of thing tends to be great fodder for sports talk but I am not so sure how real it actually is.  Remember when Brown and Tatum were a misfit.  I think if they can get Collins back playing like a legit #3 guy, they would be fine.  They can figure out the Young - Murray misfit (if in fact there is one).  It is actually good to have a secondary primary scorer who can take over when Young is out or cold.

[Atzar]

Trae would be a lot more consistent if he didn't have Dejounte Murray next to him. Murray eats too much of the ball, too many shot attempts. He doesn't space the floor. Trae needs shooters next to him. Floor spacers.

It was like Westbrook and LeBron who did not fit well together because they are both ball dominant playmakers who work best next to floor spacers. Same with Trae. Same with D Murray.

That partnership is in neither player's interests. Both players are worse off for it.

I wouldn't let Trae off the hook for this though.  Learning to play with other good players is a big part of becoming a championship-caliber player.  He shoots well enough that he should be able to play just fine off of Murray or Bojan or even Collins when necessary. 

Last season when our offense was still just "Tatum's turn, Brown's turn, Tatum's turn", we sucked.  They're both good, but they won't win enough possessions going one-on-five with an occasional kickout.  And confining Smart to catch-and-shoot duty is probably the single worst way you can use him.  We turned it around when the Jays committed to being useful off-ball players.  Brown and especially Tatum have a lot of gravity, and when they learned that they could use that to empower guys like Smart and Horford (and White this year) to be important pieces of the offense, we took off. 

Trae and Murray need to learn the same lessons.  It's not time to rest if somebody else has the ball, and passing isn't the only way to make others better.  Everybody comes up wanting to shoot like Curry but they completely miss what really makes him a winner.

I think Trae is such a flawed player that you have to build your team around his extreme weaknesses and extreme strengths.

He is not as adaptable as other guys.

That means allowing him to be a dominant ball-handler because you need that huge offensive impact to counter his large negative impact defensively in order to make him a high impact player. If you lower his time on the ball and make him a very large offensive impact instead of huge impact, then the Net of his offense minus defense contributions isn't good enough for a franchise star.

To be the franchise star he needs to have the team built around him and have both his weaknesses and his strengths compensated for in a way that goes beyond most other star players in the league due to the extreme nature (strengths / weaknesses) of his game.


A lot like Steve Nash.

PHO era Nash would not have played well with D Murray either. Murray would have disrupted the chemistry of that team and made it worse. PHO would have been far better with the ball in Nash's hands and playing alongside a 3&D guy like Raja Bell or a shooter/scorer like Barbosa rather than another high usage ball-handler & dodgy shooter in D Murray.

I just don't think dominating the ball is the only way to have a huge impact offensively.  Hence the mention of Curry.  Teams panic whenever the guy makes a move off-ball, and that makes everybody in the Golden State lineup dangerous.  Looney has more assists in the GS-Kings series than Sabonis does.  Is that because he's a better passer?  Of course not.  Golden State has just built a dynasty on off-ball movement and it puts less-talented players in advantageous situations where they can contribute to the game. 

I want Trae to learn to do the same thing.  Make Murray's job easier.  Make Collins' job easier.  He's a great passer, but that's not the only way to help his teammates.  I contend that they will have a better offense overall if everybody is empowered to contribute, as opposed to everybody just waiting for Trae to pass them the ball.  I certainly still want him to get his touches, but enable Murray and the rest of the team to help, too. 

[Who]

Trae would be a lot more consistent if he didn't have Dejounte Murray next to him. Murray eats too much of the ball, too many shot attempts. He doesn't space the floor. Trae needs shooters next to him. Floor spacers.

It was like Westbrook and LeBron who did not fit well together because they are both ball dominant playmakers who work best next to floor spacers. Same with Trae. Same with D Murray.

That partnership is in neither player's interests. Both players are worse off for it.

I wouldn't let Trae off the hook for this though.  Learning to play with other good players is a big part of becoming a championship-caliber player.  He shoots well enough that he should be able to play just fine off of Murray or Bojan or even Collins when necessary. 

Last season when our offense was still just "Tatum's turn, Brown's turn, Tatum's turn", we sucked.  They're both good, but they won't win enough possessions going one-on-five with an occasional kickout.  And confining Smart to catch-and-shoot duty is probably the single worst way you can use him.  We turned it around when the Jays committed to being useful off-ball players.  Brown and especially Tatum have a lot of gravity, and when they learned that they could use that to empower guys like Smart and Horford (and White this year) to be important pieces of the offense, we took off. 

Trae and Murray need to learn the same lessons.  It's not time to rest if somebody else has the ball, and passing isn't the only way to make others better.  Everybody comes up wanting to shoot like Curry but they completely miss what really makes him a winner.

I think Trae is such a flawed player that you have to build your team around his extreme weaknesses and extreme strengths.

He is not as adaptable as other guys.

That means allowing him to be a dominant ball-handler because you need that huge offensive impact to counter his large negative impact defensively in order to make him a high impact player. If you lower his time on the ball and make him a very large offensive impact instead of huge impact, then the Net of his offense minus defense contributions isn't good enough for a franchise star.

To be the franchise star he needs to have the team built around him and have both his weaknesses and his strengths compensated for in a way that goes beyond most other star players in the league due to the extreme nature (strengths / weaknesses) of his game.


A lot like Steve Nash.

PHO era Nash would not have played well with D Murray either. Murray would have disrupted the chemistry of that team and made it worse. PHO would have been far better with the ball in Nash's hands and playing alongside a 3&D guy like Raja Bell or a shooter/scorer like Barbosa rather than another high usage ball-handler & dodgy shooter in D Murray.

I just don't think dominating the ball is the only way to have a huge impact offensively.  Hence the mention of Curry.  Teams panic whenever the guy makes a move off-ball, and that makes everybody in the Golden State lineup dangerous.  Looney has more assists in the GS-Kings series than Sabonis does.  Is that because he's a better passer?  Of course not.  Golden State has just built a dynasty on off-ball movement and it puts less-talented players in advantageous situations where they can contribute to the game. 

I want Trae to learn to do the same thing.  Make Murray's job easier.  Make Collins' job easier.  He's a great passer, but that's not the only way to help his teammates.  I contend that they will have a better offense overall if everybody is empowered to contribute, as opposed to everybody just waiting for Trae to pass them the ball.  I certainly still want him to get his touches, but enable Murray and the rest of the team to help, too.

I am having a little trouble finding the words so I may be rambling  here ...

I agree with the general point of it being good for PGs to be able to play off the ball.

--------------------------------------

I see this as something that is more unique to Steph. He is like half PG half Reggie Miller. It is difficult to emulate.

Trae is already good off-ball. He is able to run off screens and move without the ball. He is a threat that other teams worry about without the ball. Not to degree that Steph does but nobody other than Steph does that at the PG position.

I do not see Trae as good of a shooter as Steph. Nor do I see Steph as good of a passer / creator off the dribble as Trae.

--------------------------------------

I was talking about Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas and Vinnie Johnson in another thread relative to D White, Smart and Brogdon. How DET needed 2 of the 3 to play well in order to win rather than all 3 and it is the same for us here in BOS. It is okay that one guy struggles cause we have to 2 other guys who can pickup the slack. We shouldn't worry so much about one guy struggling.

Anyway, not the point. One of the under-rated parts of Isiah's game was that he could move on and off the ball. He wasn't the sharp-shooter that Steph was and he did not do it as often as Steph does it but Isiah did do that. Isiah got to play with two combo guards in Dumars and Vinnie Johnson who could all play on the ball at lead guard or move off the ball as a two guard. So they switch back and forth throughout the game giving the opponent different looks to deal with.

Another guy in that era was Mark Price. Exceptional on-ball creator and also an exception off ball catch and shoot player similar to Reggie Miller or Steph. Price is probably the closest PG I can think of in terms of Steph Curry in terms of the threat he offered without the ball ... AND, Price was better on-ball which is crazy to think about. Just how good Mark Price was. Imagine if he played today instead of the late 80s early 90s when bigger players could beat the crap out of him like Chicago used to.

In contrast, there was Kevin Johnson. He was an amazing 20-10 PG before Charles Barkley arrived. Maybe the most unstoppable PG in the league off the dribble. Even better than Zeke or Price. But KJ couldn't play off the ball. He didn't move well without the ball. He offered little threat as a floor spacer without the ball. And while this was not much of an issue for KJ in the late 80s early 90s when the team revolved around him, it became an issue for him in 1993-96 when he played alongside Barkley who was also more of an isolation type player.

--------------------------------------

Switching back to Trae and today's league and players like Damian Lillard.

I too would like to see more PGs play better off ball. All teams should have at least 2 ball-handlers who are capable of running an offense. In the old days, they were your two guards. Your lead guard and your off guard. Nowadays with so many ball-handling forwards, it could be your PG & SF or even having 3 (or even 4) ball-handlers.

When the ball switches to that other ball-handler(s), it is valuable to be able to be a threat off ball. The more of a threat, the more value.

That said, how much time you want your PG to play on or off the ball is dependent both on their skill off ball & also on-ball. Trae Young is one of the most dominant on-ball threats in the league. You want him on the ball A LOT. You would rather have him alongside secondary ball-handlers who are happier in lower usage roles than ones who need high usage (D Murray) roles.

Also, Trae Young is good off-ball but he is not great. He is closer to Isiah Thomas than he is to Mark Price or Steph Curry. Not just because of his movement but because he also is not the sharp-shooter that Price was or Curry is (or Reggie Miller was).

Steph is probably close to 50-50 on ball / off ball which is extreme for a PG and why I believe it is hard to emulate.

Damian Lillard and Kyrie Irving are both players for me who could benefit even more than Trae from playing more off ball because (1) both guys are more pure shooters than Trae (2) neither is as good a passer / playmaker on-ball as Trae is.

I'd love to see those two guys mix and match on ball vs off ball more. Trae I'd like stay see more on-ball with a smaller amount of off ball action. Maybe 75-25 split. Or 80-20. I want to keep him on ball more than them and more than with Steph.