JB states his case for All-NBA

[Roy H.]

Also, Jimmy Butler gets too much love.  He had a good season, but I'm not sure that he had an All-NBA season.  64 games played, his team will finish in 8th or miss the playoffs.

[Kernewek]

Jimmy Butler 'plays hard', which goes a long way with pretty much everyone, for better or worse.

I definitely think the issue is not the awards inasmuch as contract conditions being tied to them. Imagine missing out on millions of dollars because Kendrick Perkins thinks you've got it easy as a white NBA player.

[Vermont Green]

Right now, this informal tally, I believe would result in:

Mitchell
Shia
Tatum
Giannis
Embiid

Doncic
Fox
Butler
Brown
Jokic

Curry
Holiday
Randle
Markkanen
Sabonis

Brown is second team forward.  He would actually make it as third team guard also in terms of overall points.

Lots of older guys not making it so far (understandably), Leonard, LeBron, Davis, Durant, Kyrie, some not getting any votes at all.

If you adjusted it for traditional positions, the only change would be that Sabonis would be second team PF and Jaylen Brown would bump down to third team SF.  Even if if players were allowed a primary and secondary position, neither Brown or Butler would be considered a PF.  They would be SF/SG.  Markkanen could be third team C and Randle third team PF.

[Roy H.]

If you adjusted it for traditional positions, the only change would be that Sabonis would be second team PF and Jaylen Brown would bump down to third team SF.

I think Sabonis has played pretty much exclusively center this year.  The Kings starters a bit "positionless" outside of Fox, but with Fox / Huerter / Murray / Barnes / Sabonis, I think Sabonis is the center.

[Moranis]

Jimmy Butler 'plays hard', which goes a long way with pretty much everyone, for better or worse.

I definitely think the issue is not the awards inasmuch as contract conditions being tied to them. Imagine missing out on millions of dollars because Kendrick Perkins thinks you've got it easy as a white NBA player.

Jimmy Butler basically admitted to only playing hard the last month or so of the season. 

[Atzar]

Also, Jimmy Butler gets too much love.  He had a good season, but I'm not sure that he had an All-NBA season.  64 games played, his team will finish in 8th or miss the playoffs.

I like Butler, but he has somehow found this ideal ground where he's talked up whenever he succeeds but nobody cares when he fails.  We hear all about it when he puts up 35.  We don't hear a word when he puts up 15.  Contrast that to these other stars who are absolutely ripped to shreds by fans and media if they dare to have an off night. 

I'd chalk it up to relative expectations, but even when the Heat were considered title contenders Butler didn't catch much flak if he struggled.  Not sure why that is. 

[keevsnick]

If you adjusted it for traditional positions, the only change would be that Sabonis would be second team PF and Jaylen Brown would bump down to third team SF.

I think Sabonis has played pretty much exclusively center this year.  The Kings starters a bit "positionless" outside of Fox, but with Fox / Huerter / Murray / Barnes / Sabonis, I think Sabonis is the center.

Yep. Basketball reference has Sabonis as 100% at center this year. This makes sense, Sabonis isn't defending anybody on the perimeter. It also has AD as 100% center as well.

[Vermont Green]

If you adjusted it for traditional positions, the only change would be that Sabonis would be second team PF and Jaylen Brown would bump down to third team SF.

I think Sabonis has played pretty much exclusively center this year.  The Kings starters a bit "positionless" outside of Fox, but with Fox / Huerter / Murray / Barnes / Sabonis, I think Sabonis is the center.

Yes but under my proposed rules, each player is allowed a primary and secondary position.  Sabonis would be a C/PF, so eligible at either.  Call the "position" big if you want.  Markkanen would be the same.  Brown and Butler would be SG/SF (or SF/SG).  You could call them wings if you like.  It isn't perfect, but it works out many of the glitches.

This allows for some positional flexibility while not going too far and ending up with an all nba squad that is 3 centers or 4 PGs.  Sabonis has more points than Markkanen so to me, it is more fair that he is the second team PF.  Neither Brown or Butler are realistically a PF.  More realistic to have Sabonis the second team PF than Brown.

[keevsnick]

Jimmy Butler 'plays hard', which goes a long way with pretty much everyone, for better or worse.

I definitely think the issue is not the awards inasmuch as contract conditions being tied to them. Imagine missing out on millions of dollars because Kendrick Perkins thinks you've got it easy as a white NBA player.

Jimmy Butler basically admitted to only playing hard the last month or so of the season.

Thing about Jimmy Butler is advanced stats tend to LOVE him, like a lot. On top of that he also has a significant "narrative" advantage of being considered a "winner" or "winning player" who shows up in big moments despite (whether that's true or not is debatable).

[bdm860]

That said, I'm unclear on the spreadsheet.  O'Connor's reported votes have open spots at 2nd team or 3rd team guard.

That's because the sources of these things are podcasts/twitter/articles.

Joe Vardon wrote an article where he specifically said Mitchell/Luka are his 1st team guards, and SGA is his 2nd team, but didn't mention anybody else, so that's why his ballot has so many empty spots.

The ones from podcasts (like O'Conner's), without actually listening, I imagine guys are discussing their votes, and don't realize they've only listed 4 guys instead of 5, or the conversation gets sidetracked, etc.  I know on the podcasts I do listen to, this kind of thing happens fairly regularly.

So those are the reasons for incomplete ballots.

Also, Jimmy Butler gets too much love.  He had a good season, but I'm not sure that he had an All-NBA season.  64 games played, his team will finish in 8th or miss the playoffs.

The advanced stats really like him.

Top 5ish in things like RAPTOR, PER, VORP, BPM, WS, Player Impact Estimate, with a really good 65% TS%, and solid 23/6/5/2 counting stats.  His reputation probably helps too.

[keevsnick]

Position Crossovers:

Both Butler and Brown have one vote at 3rd team guard that the spread sheet doesn't seem to account for right now. As a reminder, all points are counted at the position in which a player receives the most points which for both guys is obviously going to be forward. So both guys really have one more point than shown. 

AD also has two second team center votes that don't appear to be tallied anywhere as well. It's not clear what position he'll end up tallied as he has equal point at Forward and Center, but he really has 12 points right now.

Tatum has ten points tallied under the guard category, but those will go towards his forward votes. Luka has ten points under forward but those will go towards guard. Sabonis has 3 points at forward which also aren't tallied that will go towards center.

[Donoghus]

It's gonna be a loooooong 5-6 weeks until this thing is announced.

[Vermont Green]

I think Jimmy Butler deserves the praise he gets.  He is a really good player and has been for a while.  They have him right there with Brown.  But not Tatum.  I think that is fair if his body of work is considered.  He is trying to be the #1 guy on the Heat, with not a whole lot around him.  Second team or third team All NBA is about right.

[Roy H.]

I think Jimmy Butler deserves the praise he gets.  He is a really good player and has been for a while.  They have him right there with Brown.  But not Tatum.  I think that is fair if his body of work is considered.  He is trying to be the #1 guy on the Heat, with not a whole lot around him.  Second team or third team All NBA is about right.

The "body of work" thing is the questionable part for me.  Does that include only this year?  Or does it include his reputation for clutchness and elite defense (neither of which he displayed much this year)?

[Vermont Green]

I think Jimmy Butler deserves the praise he gets.  He is a really good player and has been for a while.  They have him right there with Brown.  But not Tatum.  I think that is fair if his body of work is considered.  He is trying to be the #1 guy on the Heat, with not a whole lot around him.  Second team or third team All NBA is about right.

The "body of work" thing is the questionable part for me.  Does that include only this year?  Or does it include his reputation for clutchness and elite defense (neither of which he displayed much this year)?

It is tough to separate.  I have not seen enough of his games this season to be able to judge how his defense this season compares to last, or his "clutchness".  But if I was picking teams to play a game today, I would pick him pretty high.  He averaged 23 points on about 14 shots per game (very efficient for a #1 guy).  35% from 3.  And I think his defense is still pretty good for a #1 offensive guy.  That is a pretty good body of work for the season.  But things are winding down some for him at age 33.  He is certainly not going to carry a mediocre team very far any more, probably never could.  But would you rather have Markkanen or Randle (the current 3rd team forwards) over Butler for a big game?  Even LeBron (who also has forward votes)?

As I said above, if I could wave my wand, I probably have have Brown as second team SF, Sabonis or Randle as second team PF and then Butler as third team SF.