JB states his case for All-NBA

[bdm860]

I agree that positionless could lead to some weird outcomes.  It's possible that a future team could have five guards, for instance.  But, ultimately it's about rewarding the best players (especially where there are contract incentives involves), so I'm fine with the change.

'94 and '95 are what comes to mind for me.

Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Ewing all finished Top 5 in MVP voting both years, so likely all would have made 1st Team if voting was positionless.  Ewing got the short end of the stick and didn't make an All-NBA team either year.

Also not unfathomable to think of a season semi-recently when we could have had 4/5 of Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Lillard, Paul, Rose (if never injured) make 1st team, if things lined up a little differently from '15-'20 (and Kawhi/LeBron/Giannis are injured, taking a baseball sabbatical, undiscovered in Greece, etc.). 


I'm kind of torn on this.  As others have just mentioned (Roy, slam, Celtics2021, etc.), NBA is mostly positionless, and except for some PGs and Cs, most players don't spend all their time in a single position.  But if you're a Center like Ewing in '94 should you make the team when there's 3 players better than you at your position?  Are All-NBA contract incentives supposed to reward you for being the top 3/6 at your general position, or top 5/10/15 in the NBA?  Is All-NBA intended to be more of a best players at your position ranker, or best player overall ranker (and if best player overall ranker, how is it that different than MVP)?

And then there's All-D.  Probably more likely to regularly produce teams of 5 forwards/centers.  But if you're one of the best at defending opposing guards, even if there's 10 forward/centers ahead of you, I think you should be recognized.

I think All-NBA/All-D should somewhat resemble a team you would actually put on the floor if given a chance.  I'm okay with one of Jokic/Embiid not making 1st team because there's a better player ahead of one of them.  I'm not okay with Jaylen Brown not making a team because he's split between 2 positions.  I don't know what the best solve is though.  I'm just not convinced positionless is it.

[Moranis]

I dislike the position-less concept.  Teams don't start 5 guys like Embiid nor 5 guys like Lillard.  In fact most teams generally still start a C, PF, SF, SG, and PG.  Sure some of the guys can play multiple positions, but that concept isn't new (I mean look at Bird, he played both SF and PF throughout his career). 

If you need a modification, I think this one makes sense - 1 PG, 1 C, 3 Wings.  Most of the position overlap is between the SG, SF, and PF and I think that would solve it.   

[Csfan1984]

I'd make voting much more open seeing how the game is played today. Only required condition is one back court and one front court player must be on each team. Then pick what you want.

So four back court one front is fine, as is the reverse.

I want the best with very little position slots being mandatory. Guys play all over and depending on matchups is where they play in actual games no matter the lineup titles.

[gouki88]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

I'm quite comfortable in calling Chris Broussard and idiot, regardless of the spreadsheet

[Donoghus]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

I'm quite comfortable in calling Chris Broussard and idiot, regardless of the spreadsheet

Chris Broussard & his sauces...

 

[Kernewek]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

Well if Broussard works there it’s possible they might not 

To be honest he’s hardly the most offensive talking head to be spun out of the worldwide leader.

[Donoghus]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

Well if Broussard works there it’s possible they might not 

To be honest he’s hardly the most offensive talking head to be spun out of the worldwide leader.

Yeah, he does segments on FOX now with our other good blog friend Nick Wright. 

Real meeting of the minds there.

[Moranis]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

Well if Broussard works there it’s possible they might not 

To be honest he’s hardly the most offensive talking head to be spun out of the worldwide leader.

Yeah, he does segments on FOX now with our other good blog friend Nick Wright. 

Real meeting of the minds there.

He is a straight up host on that show allow with Nick and Kevin Wildes.  Broussard also has a radio show on Fox with Rob Parker. 

[Donoghus]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

Well if Broussard works there it’s possible they might not 

To be honest he’s hardly the most offensive talking head to be spun out of the worldwide leader.

Yeah, he does segments on FOX now with our other good blog friend Nick Wright. 

Real meeting of the minds there.

He is a straight up host on that show allow with Nick and Kevin Wildes.  Broussard also has a radio show on Fox with Rob Parker.

It amazes me that Rob Parker still finds work.

[Phantom255x]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

Well if Broussard works there it’s possible they might not 

To be honest he’s hardly the most offensive talking head to be spun out of the worldwide leader.

Yeah, he does segments on FOX now with our other good blog friend Nick Wright. 

Real meeting of the minds there.

He is a straight up host on that show allow with Nick and Kevin Wildes.  Broussard also has a radio show on Fox with Rob Parker.

Wildes is pretty good, and funny. An underrated member.

[Moranis]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

Well if Broussard works there it’s possible they might not 

To be honest he’s hardly the most offensive talking head to be spun out of the worldwide leader.

Yeah, he does segments on FOX now with our other good blog friend Nick Wright. 

Real meeting of the minds there.

He is a straight up host on that show allow with Nick and Kevin Wildes.  Broussard also has a radio show on Fox with Rob Parker.

Wildes is pretty good, and funny. An underrated member.

I don't actually mind that panel.  They seem to have the right mix and balance.  It is sports talk to it is often over the top, but they all seem genuine (sometimes genuinely wrong, but genuine).  Just a different vibe than a show like that Shannon/Skip show.  That just seems phoney and fake most of the time.

[Vermont Green]

I'd make voting much more open seeing how the game is played today. Only required condition is one back court and one front court player must be on each team. Then pick what you want.

So four back court one front is fine, as is the reverse.

I want the best with very little position slots being mandatory. Guys play all over and depending on matchups is where they play in actual games no matter the lineup titles.

I think there is a happy medium here.  The NBA is not "position-less".  Most players are versatile enough to play 2 positions, or to be on the court with a couple of combinations of positions, but that is not the same as position-less.  Brown for example, can realistically play either SG or SF.  It is not realistic to say he has no position or can play any position.  The vast majority of players have a natural position that is clear but also a secondary position where they are fine.  Very few can play 3 or more positions, and if they can, they are more like a utility infielder, not really all that good at any position, certainly not the type of player that is going to be in the all NBA discussion.  (Magic Johnson may be the exception to this.  The Lakers won a championship with him playing center.)

If they did my idea of allowing players a primary and a secondary position, that would solve probably 80% or 90% of the issues.  Nothing is going to solve 100%.  If there are 3 Centers that are top 5 in MVP voting, they shouldn't all be on the first team all nba team.  One can be first team C, one can be first team PF, but one needs to be second team C.  And if their contracts are tied to this, maybe they should tie their contracts to MVP voting or otherwise change the contracts.  Just one fan's opinion.

[keevsnick]

Here's a decent tracker of everyone who's made their vote public. Good news so far: Of the 5 who leaked all-NBA votes, Jaylen is 2nd-team forward on 3 and 3rd-team forward on 2.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KMzwRcilLDej0BWl7eYE_OYC9Tx9olI_Ptn-nHjKfpQ/edit#gid=2094680016

Based off results of the known ballots so far here are a couple observations at forward:

1) Durant and Kawhi don't appear to be getting serious consideration. That makes sense, most voters seem to fall somewhere close to Bill Simmons where if you don't play in the mid-50's game wise at least you wont get votes. Durant and Kawhi didn't play enough.

2) Doncic actually has the 5th most forward votes, but most of his have come at guard, so he will be eligible at guard.

3) Davis has gotten all forward votes so far, which is dumb because he's a Center. That being said him and Lebron appear to be splitting the vote a little bit, its hard to justify two Lakers players for a 7th seed and its not clear which one is better.

4) Siakam hasn't gotten any votes, that probably makes sense. Him and Randle are somewhat similar and Randle was on a much better team.

5) Jaylen has only been completely left off two (completed) ballots so far. Kevin O'Connor and Dan Devine clearly don't know ball.

I checked, and last year the spread sheet correctly predicted all-nba for forwards. It registered at least parts of 39 out of 100 ballots. Its worth noting however there was pretty tight agreement last year. 8 guys got 27+ points, two of those where embiid and jokic who's points went to the center position, and no other forward got more than three votes. Pascal was the last guy on with 27 points.

[Roy H.]

5) Jaylen has only been completely left off two (completed) ballots so far. Kevin O'Connor and Dan Devine clearly don't know ball.

I can't speak to Dan Devine, but Kevin O'Connor certainly doesn't.  He's not an "insider", he isn't anything special at evaluating talent (draftees or otherwise), and he doesn't add anything insightful. 

It's ridiculous that some of these guys get votes.  Like Perk.  Love the dude for his contributions here, but he's not a good analyst. 

That said, I'm unclear on the spreadsheet.  O'Connor's reported votes have open spots at 2nd team or 3rd team guard.

[keevsnick]

5) Jaylen has only been completely left off two (completed) ballots so far. Kevin O'Connor and Dan Devine clearly don't know ball.

I can't speak to Dan Devine, but Kevin O'Connor certainly doesn't.  He's not an "insider", he isn't anything special at evaluating talent (draftees or otherwise), and he doesn't add anything insightful. 

It's ridiculous that some of these guys get votes.  Like Perk.  Love the dude for his contributions here, but he's not a good analyst.

I used to actually like O'Connor, I generally still do like his draft work on stuff like the Ringer NBA Guide. I don't particularly like most of his actual NBA takes tho, he seems to be just overly critical at times. The game is supposed to be fun.

Perk meanwhile I have no use for as an analysts at all.