True or False: We Play Better as a Team Without JB

[slamtheking]

This is a really dumb point being made by 2 people. The majority of Celtics fans appreciate Jaylen Brown.

and both have a well-known axe to grind with JB.  nothing surprising here

[Roy H.]

This is a really dumb point being made by 2 people. The majority of Celtics fans appreciate Jaylen Brown.

and both have a well-known axe to grind with JB.  nothing surprising here

In fairness, there a seven people who voted "true" in the poll.  So, Moranis and Greenly aren't completely on an island.  I wish they were, though.  JB deserves a ton of credit for his level of play, particularly based upon where he was coming into the NBA.

[Moranis]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Details….  Hah!  I didn’t realize 6 wins were v. 2 of the worst records in the league.  That’s some fact to leave out.  Makes the stat empty and irrelevant.

Jaylen Brown on/off differential per 100 possessions

Starting with his rookie year through this season

Regular Season -7.5, +8.2, -3.7, -0.8, +0.6, +5.4, -3.6
Playoffs +1.3, -0.1, -16.3, -4.7, n/a, -1.5

That would be when he plays or misses games entirely.  He is mostly irrelevant to actual winning.

For comparison, this is Tatum

Regular Season +8.5, +4.6, +11.1, +5.3, +13.8, +12.3
Playoffs +12.9, +3.8, +4.9, -25.5, +5.4

And as I showed in this thread, Tatum not only ups his attempts but quite simply shoots better when Brown isn't in the game.  That happens pretty much every single season as well.  Tatum is the guy that drives Boston's wins and losses and he plays better without Brown, which is why when the team loses Brown and Tatum plays, the record doesn't fall off that much.  Think about that, you remove an All Star player in his prime from a team, don't replace him, and yet the team doesn't fall off much.  That is telling.  You remove Tatum and the team mostly falls apart.  He misses so few games though there isn't much of a sample size, unlike Brown who misses at least 10 every single year.

The Celtics outscore opponents by 4.9 points per 100 possessions with JB in the game.  Two teams in the entire league have a point differential of at least 4.9:  the Celtics and the Cavs.

In other words, the Celtics are playing extremely well with JB in the game.  The Celtics have won six games against Charlotte and Detroit without JB by a margin of +95.  Those games against bottom feeders alone account for much of the on/off gap.

That +4.9 is the worst from the "6" starters and also behind Hauser and Kornet.  it is better than Grant, Griffin, Brogdon, and Pritchard, but that is it among fairly regular players. 

[celticsclay]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Thanks Roy. This jb bashing is just approaching idiocy at this point in my opinion. I wish this forum had a way of setting a limit on how many times a poster can make the same argument. This has gone on far too long from two very vocal people.

[Roy H.]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Details….  Hah!  I didn’t realize 6 wins were v. 2 of the worst records in the league.  That’s some fact to leave out.  Makes the stat empty and irrelevant.

Jaylen Brown on/off differential per 100 possessions

Starting with his rookie year through this season

Regular Season -7.5, +8.2, -3.7, -0.8, +0.6, +5.4, -3.6
Playoffs +1.3, -0.1, -16.3, -4.7, n/a, -1.5

That would be when he plays or misses games entirely.  He is mostly irrelevant to actual winning.

For comparison, this is Tatum

Regular Season +8.5, +4.6, +11.1, +5.3, +13.8, +12.3
Playoffs +12.9, +3.8, +4.9, -25.5, +5.4

And as I showed in this thread, Tatum not only ups his attempts but quite simply shoots better when Brown isn't in the game.  That happens pretty much every single season as well.  Tatum is the guy that drives Boston's wins and losses and he plays better without Brown, which is why when the team loses Brown and Tatum plays, the record doesn't fall off that much.  Think about that, you remove an All Star player in his prime from a team, don't replace him, and yet the team doesn't fall off much.  That is telling.  You remove Tatum and the team mostly falls apart.  He misses so few games though there isn't much of a sample size, unlike Brown who misses at least 10 every single year.

The Celtics outscore opponents by 4.9 points per 100 possessions with JB in the game.  Two teams in the entire league have a point differential of at least 4.9:  the Celtics and the Cavs.

In other words, the Celtics are playing extremely well with JB in the game.  The Celtics have won six games against Charlotte and Detroit without JB by a margin of +95.  Those games against bottom feeders alone account for much of the on/off gap.

That +4.9 is the worst from the "6" starters and also behind Hauser and Kornet.  it is better than Grant, Griffin, Brogdon, and Pritchard, but that is it among fairly regular players.

So?  How many of those guys missed six games against Charlotte and Detroit?  I guess JB should pick and choose when he misses games better, so that he can feast on the bottom feeders.

But, you've convinced me.  Kornet adds more to winning than Brown. 

[kraidstar]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

TP to you both.

I don't see how anyone could have watched the playoffs last year and not have seen Brown's importance in generating tough buckets against elite defenses in clutch situations.

He is a near-unguardable freak. He can rise above almost anyone and can blow by almost anyone. If he tightens up his handle and decision-making just a bit he'll be a perennial all-NBA guy.

His talents are special, and will be invaluable in the playoffs against top-tier competition.

[kraidstar]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Details….  Hah!  I didn’t realize 6 wins were v. 2 of the worst records in the league.  That’s some fact to leave out.  Makes the stat empty and irrelevant.

Classic Moranis

[RodyTur10]

The most value of Brown comes from being a very good two-way wing. That's a very scarce commodity. That's also why the Celtics should be reluctant to trade him. But just because Brown scores a lot of points doesn't make him an equal to Tatum. Obviously Tatum is the star of the team and then you have Brown, White and Brogdon who don't differ much in the value they bring to the team. Same goes for Timelord if he could stay healthy.

This Celtics team is really deep and a contender. Apart from small minor moves (like adding Muscala) the big swing to lift the Celtics to even greater heights would be adding that second superstar. And probably the only way to obtain that superstar is offering Brown.

Something that's overlooked in my opinion is that the Celtics lack a bit in absolute starpower in comparison with some of the other contenders. Tatum is great, but he's not as good as the likes of Jokic, Antetokounmpo, Doncic, Embiid or even Durant or Leonard if available. I think most would agree on this if they're honest.

But a lot of you will respond with "but Tatum has Brown" and that's a mistake, because Murray, Holiday, Irving, Harden, Booker and George are equal to or better than Brown. There's a perception that Brown is a top 20 player, while he actually isn't. Though that does speak to the incredible talent level in the NBA that's at an alltime peak.

If the NBA offered to stripe every team of his two best players I would gladly agree and pencil in a title with White, Pritchard, Smart, Brogdon, Hauser, G-Will, Muscala, Horford, Timelord and Kornet.

[todd_days_41]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

[RodyTur10]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

[liam]

I don't think there is a better pair of players on the same team in the NBA. I can't think of a pair of players on the same team that is better than Tatum and Brown. Brown was clearly our best player in the NBA finals last year.

[gouki88]

The most value of Brown comes from being a very good two-way wing. That's a very scarce commodity. That's also why the Celtics should be reluctant to trade him. But just because Brown scores a lot of points doesn't make him an equal to Tatum. Obviously Tatum is the star of the team and then you have Brown, White and Brogdon who don't differ much in the value they bring to the team. Same goes for Timelord if he could stay healthy.

This Celtics team is really deep and a contender. Apart from small minor moves (like adding Muscala) the big swing to lift the Celtics to even greater heights would be adding that second superstar. And probably the only way to obtain that superstar is offering Brown.

Something that's overlooked in my opinion is that the Celtics lack a bit in absolute starpower in comparison with some of the other contenders. Tatum is great, but he's not as good as the likes of Jokic, Antetokounmpo, Doncic, Embiid or even Durant or Leonard if available. I think most would agree on this if they're honest.

But a lot of you will respond with "but Tatum has Brown" and that's a mistake, because Murray, Holiday, Irving, Harden, Booker and George are equal to or better than Brown. There's a perception that Brown is a top 20 player, while he actually isn't. Though that does speak to the incredible talent level in the NBA that's at an alltime peak.

If the NBA offered to stripe every team of his two best players I would gladly agree and pencil in a title with White, Pritchard, Smart, Brogdon, Hauser, G-Will, Muscala, Horford, Timelord and Kornet.

No they wouldn’t

[gouki88]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

The best duo in NBA history did alright despite a somewhat “duplicate” nature. It’s a nonsense point. We are the best team in the NBA after making a trip to the Finals last season, yet people like yourself are hellbent on burning that down on a total gamble.

What is with the obsession with the potential, and perhaps an unlikely one at that, with the grass being greener on the other side?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

When people talk about trading Brown, I see perpetually hurt guys like AD or Kawhi offered, or frequent trade block guys like Hield or Myles Turner.

For those that don’t appreciate Jaylen here, is there a trade that makes sense for the Celtics?

[liam]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

The best duo in NBA history did alright despite a somewhat “duplicate” nature. It’s a nonsense point. We are the best team in the NBA after making a trip to the Finals last season, yet people like yourself are hellbent on burning that down on a total gamble.

What is with the obsession with the potential, and perhaps an unlikely one at that, with the grass being greener on the other side?

You are right. These are the arguments you're back if you're in the Laker's spot in play in range not when you have the best record in the NBA.