True or False: We Play Better as a Team Without JB

[Moranis]

In 2008, the Celtics were 9-2 without KG, an 81% winning percentage.  With him, they were 57-14, an 80% winning percentage.

Clearly, then, we were just as good without KG, arguably even a little bit better.

KG had the best on/off per 100 differential on the team though and it was elite at +11.8.  When Brown does that, we can call it the same way

[Neurotic Guy]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

[slamtheking]

Now 8-1 without Brown this year and Memphis is obviously an excellent team.  Entering today Brown's on/off differential per 100 possessions was -3.5, which will only get worse after today's game.

Year after year it is the same thing.  The team just doesn't miss Brown when he doesn't play.

TP for giving data on our win record without Brown. That extrapolates to a record of 73-9. 9 games is over 10% of the regular season, too, so we’re starting to veer from too small of a sample size to a small sample size. Frankly, I hope JB skips the mask and is out another month, so we can see what happens with that 8-1 record.

so there it is...pretty much you don't like this guy and don't want him to come back from the injury.  logic seems to be evading you.

If we go 14-2 YTD without JB, for example, that’s all I care about. I want to see if all we keep doing is win without JB. It will boost my confidence in the analytics all pointing towards us being better off dealing him in the off-season, which is what I suspect Brad will do if the data overwhelmingly points in that direction. I do not have the time to crunch the data, but I have watched a lot of basketball for decades and have a good intuition for what the data will show…

Moving him for a playoffs analytics all-time great like Kawhi is my dream, particularly if this team is elite in the regular season even without JB (and therefore would be elite next year if we had Kawhi, even if Kawhi mailed-in the regular season). If we got Kawhi for JB/Brogdon, I’d let him sit however much he likes in the regular season because, like fans, he knows all that really matters is the playoffs so long as you secure a four or higher seed (dude is by far the smartest player in the league, if not the smartest basketball player all-time). If we can get the one or two seed going into the playoffs with a tanned, rested and ready Kawhi rather than JB, we would be truly unstoppable in the playoffs. Dynasty. We are literally built for Kawhi regular season precautions. Kawhi’s last 10 games have seen him average 27.7 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 4.7 APG, and 2.0 SPG on 50-40-90. That’s playoff Kawhi. Can you imagine how unstoppable we would be swapping JB for that performance in the playoffs? It might happen because the Clippers are seemingly not good enough to accommodate Kawhi’s smart load management precautions in the regular season, but we are proving that we are by going 8-1 without JB. So yes, I want to see how good we can be over 16-20 regular season games without JB.

this was your only intent for making this thread as always.  you have an irrational fanboy crush on Kawhi and are looking to try to get anyone else on board with your ridiculous trade ideas to ship out Jaylen for Kawhi. 

I 'love' your earlier post claiming this is a spirited debate and begging people to change their votes as the poll is becoming more and more lopsided against your opinion.

[Roy H.]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

[Phantom255x]

I think the poll speaks for itself 

[Sophomore]

Deleted.

[slamtheking]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

throw in the fact that lately the supporting cast has found it's touch from outside and that goes a long way to making up for Jaylen being out while Tatum has been less than stellar on offense. 

[Moranis]

Before today in the 8 games Tatum played without Brown

36 ppg, 8.25 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.375 tpg while shooting basically 52% from the field, 41% from 3, and 93% from the line. 

So most of his stats are normal, but his shooting is not.  He shoots significantly better without Brown and he shoots more, so that is why his scoring is so much better.  Again that was before today, which will bring that down some for the year, but this happens every single year that Brown misses games and Tatum does not.

The problem with the Tatum and Brown duo is they play the same position and occupy the same space on the floor and Brown quite simply, while a very good all around player, has no elite skills and isn't very good playing off the ball.  That is why he isn't a good fit next to Tatum.  Put another way, Brown basically gets in Tatum's way because how he plays at his best is the same way Tatum plays at his best and Brown just isn't good enough. 

When Brown doesn't play, he is most often replaced with significantly better shooters and guys that are more comfortable just hanging out on the perimeter.  That gives Tatum more room to operate and thus makes Tatum better.  The reason the team plays at a similar level or better without Brown, is because Tatum is just better without Brown.

[blink]

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/1620970272869203968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1620970272869203968%7Ctwgr%5E766a59ba3bc10e9e53968543977e2dad2b509ded%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcsports.com%2Fboston%2Fceltics%2Fjayson-tatum-jaylen-brown-become-first-ever-nba-duo-achieve-feat

best overall record in the NBA - Brown and Tatum playing together
went to the NBA finals last year - Brown and Tatum playing together
went to the Eastern Conf Finals 3 of 5 years - Brown and Tatum playing together
the only time in the last 3 years that we didn't at least make the Eastern Conf Finals was when BROWN WAS INJURED

JT and JB can play together.  This false narrative that they can't is something cooked up by the media or disgruntled fans.
If you want to push that narrative and that is your opinion, fine.  But it doesn't match the results, or anything our coaches or players have EVER said.

[gouki88]

Knew who kicked this thread off just from the title

[Neurotic Guy]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Details….  Hah!  I didn’t realize 6 wins were v. 2 of the worst records in the league.  That’s some fact to leave out.  Makes the stat empty and irrelevant. 

[Kernewek]

Not sure if the C's play better as a team or if Tatum is forced to play better without JB. I suspect it's the latter (I'm also not sure there's a meaningful difference really), but obviously there's no definitive answer for this because they've been on the same team for Tatum's entire career. So: have to leave the poll blank.

Would I move Jaylen for Kawhi? Not really: I don't think it solves any of the 'problems' we're seeing here.

[Moranis]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Details….  Hah!  I didn’t realize 6 wins were v. 2 of the worst records in the league.  That’s some fact to leave out.  Makes the stat empty and irrelevant.

Jaylen Brown on/off differential per 100 possessions

Starting with his rookie year through this season

Regular Season -7.5, +8.2, -3.7, -0.8, +0.6, +5.4, -3.6
Playoffs +1.3, -0.1, -16.3, -4.7, n/a, -1.5

That would be when he plays or misses games entirely.  He is mostly irrelevant to actual winning.

For comparison, this is Tatum

Regular Season +8.5, +4.6, +11.1, +5.3, +13.8, +12.3
Playoffs +12.9, +3.8, +4.9, -25.5, +5.4

And as I showed in this thread, Tatum not only ups his attempts but quite simply shoots better when Brown isn't in the game.  That happens pretty much every single season as well.  Tatum is the guy that drives Boston's wins and losses and he plays better without Brown, which is why when the team loses Brown and Tatum plays, the record doesn't fall off that much.  Think about that, you remove an All Star player in his prime from a team, don't replace him, and yet the team doesn't fall off much.  That is telling.  You remove Tatum and the team mostly falls apart.  He misses so few games though there isn't much of a sample size, unlike Brown who misses at least 10 every single year.

[Roy H.]

Can’t argue the W-L record. Can say that his 26-7-3 will be missed when the Cs are in a tough playoff series.  It’s lunacy to suggest they’ll be better off without him.  The 8-1 record is testament to a deep, talented bench. 
The use of both Jays by Joe has been my question. DW, MB, MS taking the ball up and starting the offense is preferred to the Jays with the ball early in the shot clock getting attacked on their inevitable ISOs.  The past few games showcase the value of DW with the ball. Things open for him, JT, and shooters.

JB is the second most talented player in this team and no Jaylen ultimately would make the team less capable.  Trading him for a better player…. Obviously, that would improve the team depending on the fit. Kawhi is better for now.

8-1 includes 4 wins over Charlotte and 2 wins over Detroit.  Another was against BRK with no Durant.  So, seven bad teams.  Then a good win today, and a loss against Miami.

Details….  Hah!  I didn’t realize 6 wins were v. 2 of the worst records in the league.  That’s some fact to leave out.  Makes the stat empty and irrelevant.

Jaylen Brown on/off differential per 100 possessions

Starting with his rookie year through this season

Regular Season -7.5, +8.2, -3.7, -0.8, +0.6, +5.4, -3.6
Playoffs +1.3, -0.1, -16.3, -4.7, n/a, -1.5

That would be when he plays or misses games entirely.  He is mostly irrelevant to actual winning.

For comparison, this is Tatum

Regular Season +8.5, +4.6, +11.1, +5.3, +13.8, +12.3
Playoffs +12.9, +3.8, +4.9, -25.5, +5.4

And as I showed in this thread, Tatum not only ups his attempts but quite simply shoots better when Brown isn't in the game.  That happens pretty much every single season as well.  Tatum is the guy that drives Boston's wins and losses and he plays better without Brown, which is why when the team loses Brown and Tatum plays, the record doesn't fall off that much.  Think about that, you remove an All Star player in his prime from a team, don't replace him, and yet the team doesn't fall off much.  That is telling.  You remove Tatum and the team mostly falls apart.  He misses so few games though there isn't much of a sample size, unlike Brown who misses at least 10 every single year.

The Celtics outscore opponents by 4.9 points per 100 possessions with JB in the game.  Two teams in the entire league have a point differential of at least 4.9:  the Celtics and the Cavs.

In other words, the Celtics are playing extremely well with JB in the game.  The Celtics have won six games against Charlotte and Detroit without JB by a margin of +95.  Those games against bottom feeders alone account for much of the on/off gap.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

This is a really dumb point being made by 2 people. The majority of Celtics fans appreciate Jaylen Brown.