True or False: We Play Better as a Team Without JB

[boscel33]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

Is there any evidence that he is not accepting this? I hear this brought up a lot but I’m finding it hard to find any evidence supporting this narrative.

Yeah, I also think this is made up.

In addition, Jaylen has t requested a trade because he doesn’t want to leave. It’s fans that are creating this narrative because they don’t like JB, for one reason or another.

Definitely not much “evidence”. I think the chip on Brown’s shoulder is fairly evident in his comments and interviews with some regularity. But obv he doesn’t come right out and say it.

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Please, cite these comments

I think in the past he's made comments about not feeling embraced, and on social media he's liked comments talking about how Boston fans don't appreciate him enough.  And, anecdotally, he hasn't been a "rah rah" guy about the fans and city in general. 

That's why I liked this in a recent interview:

“My friends, they come in town, they talk about Boston. I mean, Boston is this and that and I find myself defending,” explained the Georgia native. “As I got integrated into the community, I met a lot of people who live in Boston who do a lot of great things.”

I beginning to think that he won't re-sign with the C's.  I think he'll head to ATL so what's the package we can get back for him in a S&T?  Of course, Danny is in Utah with a plethora of picks, maybe a Markkanen and two firsts....   

I'm hoping he gets healthy soon and makes All-NBA.  That would make us the heavy favorite to keep him here.

It seems like we do say that a lot about him, "I hope he gets healthy soon".  I'm in the JKJB but he has missed significant time the past few years.

[Roy H.]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

Is there any evidence that he is not accepting this? I hear this brought up a lot but I’m finding it hard to find any evidence supporting this narrative.

Yeah, I also think this is made up.

In addition, Jaylen has t requested a trade because he doesn’t want to leave. It’s fans that are creating this narrative because they don’t like JB, for one reason or another.

Definitely not much “evidence”. I think the chip on Brown’s shoulder is fairly evident in his comments and interviews with some regularity. But obv he doesn’t come right out and say it.

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Please, cite these comments

I think in the past he's made comments about not feeling embraced, and on social media he's liked comments talking about how Boston fans don't appreciate him enough.  And, anecdotally, he hasn't been a "rah rah" guy about the fans and city in general. 

That's why I liked this in a recent interview:

“My friends, they come in town, they talk about Boston. I mean, Boston is this and that and I find myself defending,” explained the Georgia native. “As I got integrated into the community, I met a lot of people who live in Boston who do a lot of great things.”

I beginning to think that he won't re-sign with the C's.  I think he'll head to ATL so what's the package we can get back for him in a S&T?  Of course, Danny is in Utah with a plethora of picks, maybe a Markkanen and two firsts....   

I'm hoping he gets healthy soon and makes All-NBA.  That would make us the heavy favorite to keep him here.

He need only make ANY all-NBA team to be eligable for Super Max Ext, correct?

Correct.

[slamtheking]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

Is there any evidence that he is not accepting this? I hear this brought up a lot but I’m finding it hard to find any evidence supporting this narrative.

Yeah, I also think this is made up.

In addition, Jaylen has t requested a trade because he doesn’t want to leave. It’s fans that are creating this narrative because they don’t like JB, for one reason or another.

Definitely not much “evidence”. I think the chip on Brown’s shoulder is fairly evident in his comments and interviews with some regularity. But obv he doesn’t come right out and say it.

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Please, cite these comments

I think in the past he's made comments about not feeling embraced, and on social media he's liked comments talking about how Boston fans don't appreciate him enough.  And, anecdotally, he hasn't been a "rah rah" guy about the fans and city in general. 

That's why I liked this in a recent interview:

“My friends, they come in town, they talk about Boston. I mean, Boston is this and that and I find myself defending,” explained the Georgia native. “As I got integrated into the community, I met a lot of people who live in Boston who do a lot of great things.”

I beginning to think that he won't re-sign with the C's.  I think he'll head to ATL so what's the package we can get back for him in a S&T?  Of course, Danny is in Utah with a plethora of picks, maybe a Markkanen and two firsts....   

I'm hoping he gets healthy soon and makes All-NBA.  That would make us the heavy favorite to keep him here.

It seems like we do say that a lot about him, "I hope he gets healthy soon".  I'm in the JKJB but he has missed significant time the past few years.

I wouldn't put this situation on him not being healthy.  a teammate's elbow to your face and breaking it is pretty abnormal.

[Moranis]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

Is there any evidence that he is not accepting this? I hear this brought up a lot but I’m finding it hard to find any evidence supporting this narrative.

Yeah, I also think this is made up.

In addition, Jaylen has t requested a trade because he doesn’t want to leave. It’s fans that are creating this narrative because they don’t like JB, for one reason or another.

Definitely not much “evidence”. I think the chip on Brown’s shoulder is fairly evident in his comments and interviews with some regularity. But obv he doesn’t come right out and say it.

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Please, cite these comments

I think in the past he's made comments about not feeling embraced, and on social media he's liked comments talking about how Boston fans don't appreciate him enough.  And, anecdotally, he hasn't been a "rah rah" guy about the fans and city in general. 

That's why I liked this in a recent interview:

“My friends, they come in town, they talk about Boston. I mean, Boston is this and that and I find myself defending,” explained the Georgia native. “As I got integrated into the community, I met a lot of people who live in Boston who do a lot of great things.”

I beginning to think that he won't re-sign with the C's.  I think he'll head to ATL so what's the package we can get back for him in a S&T?  Of course, Danny is in Utah with a plethora of picks, maybe a Markkanen and two firsts....   

I'm hoping he gets healthy soon and makes All-NBA.  That would make us the heavy favorite to keep him here.

It seems like we do say that a lot about him, "I hope he gets healthy soon".  I'm in the JKJB but he has missed significant time the past few years.

I wouldn't put this situation on him not being healthy.  a teammate's elbow to your face and breaking it is pretty abnormal.

it is always something with him though.  He misses 10+ games due to injury every year.

[slamtheking]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

Is there any evidence that he is not accepting this? I hear this brought up a lot but I’m finding it hard to find any evidence supporting this narrative.

Yeah, I also think this is made up.

In addition, Jaylen has t requested a trade because he doesn’t want to leave. It’s fans that are creating this narrative because they don’t like JB, for one reason or another.

Definitely not much “evidence”. I think the chip on Brown’s shoulder is fairly evident in his comments and interviews with some regularity. But obv he doesn’t come right out and say it.

Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Please, cite these comments

I think in the past he's made comments about not feeling embraced, and on social media he's liked comments talking about how Boston fans don't appreciate him enough.  And, anecdotally, he hasn't been a "rah rah" guy about the fans and city in general. 

That's why I liked this in a recent interview:

“My friends, they come in town, they talk about Boston. I mean, Boston is this and that and I find myself defending,” explained the Georgia native. “As I got integrated into the community, I met a lot of people who live in Boston who do a lot of great things.”

I beginning to think that he won't re-sign with the C's.  I think he'll head to ATL so what's the package we can get back for him in a S&T?  Of course, Danny is in Utah with a plethora of picks, maybe a Markkanen and two firsts....   

I'm hoping he gets healthy soon and makes All-NBA.  That would make us the heavy favorite to keep him here.

It seems like we do say that a lot about him, "I hope he gets healthy soon".  I'm in the JKJB but he has missed significant time the past few years.

I wouldn't put this situation on him not being healthy.  a teammate's elbow to your face and breaking it is pretty abnormal.

it is always something with him though.  He misses 10+ games due to injury every year.

again, I wouldn't put this as something indicating he's frail or has health concerns.  an face-breaking elbow to the face would knock out any player and is not something that will be a recurring issue (at least I hope he never experiences another hit to the face like that for his sake)

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Brown is fine playing as the #2. He still gets his shots, still gets his numbers, and the team is good.  I just don't think he impacts winning of this team all that much which is fully supported by years of evidence.

You can cherry pick stats as you will. Roy already poked a Chinese balloon-sized hole in your theory about this year’s record without JB. You still haven’t accounted for last year’s Finals when Tatum was gassed.

You also haven’t provided any type of solution to the “Jaylen Brown problem”. Basically, you’re complaining about a non issue.

you mean the Finals in which we lost.  Doesn't that support the position I'm taking i.e. Brown doesnt impact winning all that much.  And all that much doesnt mean not at all.  The simple reality is year after year it is the exact same thing, Boston wins at a .500 rate or better when Brown doesnt play at all and generally wins at around the same rate with or without him.  EVERY SINGLE YEAR.  It makes no difference who they play, the same thing happens again and again.  Last year Brown missed 14 of the first 27 games, Boston was 7-7 without him and 6-7 with him.  They obviously went on a crazy tear down the stretch and Brown was a part of that, and that led to Brown's most impactful year.  Until the playoffs when Boston was yet again better with Brown on the bench.

What is your solution to the JB problem?

[Roy H.]

I consider there to be four "bottom feeders" in the NBA, based upon their play this year:  Houston, San Antonio, Detroit, and Charlotte.

Our record without JB against non-bottom feeders:  2 - 1

Our record without JT against non-bottom feeders:  2 - 1

[Moranis]

I think Brown is fine playing as the #2. He still gets his shots, still gets his numbers, and the team is good.  I just don't think he impacts winning of this team all that much which is fully supported by years of evidence.

You can cherry pick stats as you will. Roy already poked a Chinese balloon-sized hole in your theory about this year’s record without JB. You still haven’t accounted for last year’s Finals when Tatum was gassed.

You also haven’t provided any type of solution to the “Jaylen Brown problem”. Basically, you’re complaining about a non issue.

you mean the Finals in which we lost.  Doesn't that support the position I'm taking i.e. Brown doesnt impact winning all that much.  And all that much doesnt mean not at all.  The simple reality is year after year it is the exact same thing, Boston wins at a .500 rate or better when Brown doesnt play at all and generally wins at around the same rate with or without him.  EVERY SINGLE YEAR.  It makes no difference who they play, the same thing happens again and again.  Last year Brown missed 14 of the first 27 games, Boston was 7-7 without him and 6-7 with him.  They obviously went on a crazy tear down the stretch and Brown was a part of that, and that led to Brown's most impactful year.  Until the playoffs when Boston was yet again better with Brown on the bench.

What is your solution to the JB problem?

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

[RodyTur10]

I think Brown is fine playing as the #2. He still gets his shots, still gets his numbers, and the team is good.  I just don't think he impacts winning of this team all that much which is fully supported by years of evidence.

You can cherry pick stats as you will. Roy already poked a Chinese balloon-sized hole in your theory about this year’s record without JB. You still haven’t accounted for last year’s Finals when Tatum was gassed.

You also haven’t provided any type of solution to the “Jaylen Brown problem”. Basically, you’re complaining about a non issue.

you mean the Finals in which we lost.  Doesn't that support the position I'm taking i.e. Brown doesnt impact winning all that much.  And all that much doesnt mean not at all.  The simple reality is year after year it is the exact same thing, Boston wins at a .500 rate or better when Brown doesnt play at all and generally wins at around the same rate with or without him.  EVERY SINGLE YEAR.  It makes no difference who they play, the same thing happens again and again.  Last year Brown missed 14 of the first 27 games, Boston was 7-7 without him and 6-7 with him.  They obviously went on a crazy tear down the stretch and Brown was a part of that, and that led to Brown's most impactful year.  Until the playoffs when Boston was yet again better with Brown on the bench.

What is your solution to the JB problem?

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Who would you target and would they be available for a trade?

[todd_days_41]

I think Brown is fine playing as the #2. He still gets his shots, still gets his numbers, and the team is good.  I just don't think he impacts winning of this team all that much which is fully supported by years of evidence.

You can cherry pick stats as you will. Roy already poked a Chinese balloon-sized hole in your theory about this year’s record without JB. You still haven’t accounted for last year’s Finals when Tatum was gassed.

You also haven’t provided any type of solution to the “Jaylen Brown problem”. Basically, you’re complaining about a non issue.

you mean the Finals in which we lost.  Doesn't that support the position I'm taking i.e. Brown doesnt impact winning all that much.  And all that much doesnt mean not at all.  The simple reality is year after year it is the exact same thing, Boston wins at a .500 rate or better when Brown doesnt play at all and generally wins at around the same rate with or without him.  EVERY SINGLE YEAR.  It makes no difference who they play, the same thing happens again and again.  Last year Brown missed 14 of the first 27 games, Boston was 7-7 without him and 6-7 with him.  They obviously went on a crazy tear down the stretch and Brown was a part of that, and that led to Brown's most impactful year.  Until the playoffs when Boston was yet again better with Brown on the bench.

What is your solution to the JB problem?

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Dialogue like this leads me back to this point: there seem to be two different discussions going on here.

1) Are the Celtics better off if Brown just doesn't play? I think that's fairly absurd and -- even for the frustrated JB crowd -- is pretty tough to argue outside of a game by game vacuum;

2) Would the Cs be better off with what they could get for Brown in trade than with Brown himself? To me, that's a far more reasonable discussion -- one there's not really a "right" or "wrong" answer to.

Just seems like some of the replies refer to one of these when the previous poster is talking about the other......

[Kernewek]

I think Brown is fine playing as the #2. He still gets his shots, still gets his numbers, and the team is good.  I just don't think he impacts winning of this team all that much which is fully supported by years of evidence.

You can cherry pick stats as you will. Roy already poked a Chinese balloon-sized hole in your theory about this year’s record without JB. You still haven’t accounted for last year’s Finals when Tatum was gassed.

You also haven’t provided any type of solution to the “Jaylen Brown problem”. Basically, you’re complaining about a non issue.

you mean the Finals in which we lost.  Doesn't that support the position I'm taking i.e. Brown doesnt impact winning all that much.  And all that much doesnt mean not at all.  The simple reality is year after year it is the exact same thing, Boston wins at a .500 rate or better when Brown doesnt play at all and generally wins at around the same rate with or without him.  EVERY SINGLE YEAR.  It makes no difference who they play, the same thing happens again and again.  Last year Brown missed 14 of the first 27 games, Boston was 7-7 without him and 6-7 with him.  They obviously went on a crazy tear down the stretch and Brown was a part of that, and that led to Brown's most impactful year.  Until the playoffs when Boston was yet again better with Brown on the bench.

What is your solution to the JB problem?

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Dialogue like this leads me back to this point: there seem to be two different discussions going on here.

1) Are the Celtics better off if Brown just doesn't play? I think that's fairly absurd and -- even for the frustrated JB crowd -- is pretty tough to argue outside of a game by game vacuum;

2) Would the Cs be better off with what they could get for Brown in trade than with Brown himself? To me, that's a far more reasonable discussion -- one there's not really a "right" or "wrong" answer to.

Just seems like some of the replies refer to one of these when the previous poster is talking about the other......

Perhaps the real question should be whether the obtuseness is deliberate 

[Vermont Green]

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Brown for Towns straight up works.  Short of that, I don't see how you get value for Brown.

For the record, I think Brown is a great player.  I am not sure how the advanced stats don't support this.  I don't ignore advanced stats or stats in general but I go a lot by what I see on the court.  What I see in Brown is a smart, hard working, athletic player.  That said, there may be a trade that works, I don't know.

Adding another player, I would trade Brown for Bam Adebayo also.  Not sure if MIA would make that trade, or if MIN would trade Towns, but those are the level of players (and position) that I would consider trading Brown for.

[Roy H.]

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Brown for Towns straight up works.  Short of that, I don't see how you get value for Brown.

For the record, I think Brown is a great player.  I am not sure how the advanced stats don't support this.  I don't ignore advanced stats or stats in general but I go a lot by what I see on the court.  What I see in Brown is a smart, hard working, athletic player.  That said, there may be a trade that works, I don't know.

Adding another player, I would trade Brown for Bam Adebayo also.  Not sure if MIA would make that trade, or if MIN would trade Towns, but those are the level of players (and position) that I would consider trading Brown for.

I think that would leave us with a mismatched roster.  I don't think he would work with Timelord, and I'm bothered by his tendency to shrink in the playoffs.

I'm not sure about Towns, but my tendency would be to just keep Brown unless he is expressing that he wants out.

[Moranis]

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Brown for Towns straight up works.  Short of that, I don't see how you get value for Brown.

For the record, I think Brown is a great player.  I am not sure how the advanced stats don't support this.  I don't ignore advanced stats or stats in general but I go a lot by what I see on the court.  What I see in Brown is a smart, hard working, athletic player.  That said, there may be a trade that works, I don't know.

Adding another player, I would trade Brown for Bam Adebayo also.  Not sure if MIA would make that trade, or if MIN would trade Towns, but those are the level of players (and position) that I would consider trading Brown for.

Those are both reasonable trades.  There are others, for example a trade with Toronto for Siakam + other pieces may make sense, like Siakam, Anunoby for Brown, Gallinari, Pritchard, Kornet (something like that).  I think that would make sense for both teams, at least in theory.  I'd call up the Cavs and see if Mobley was available.  I think Brown would slot very nicely into Cleveland with Mitchell, Garland, and Allen, and Mobley would be awesome here as a big man.  There would have to be other salary coming to Boston like Osman + Okoro.  That would be an interesting trade.  I don't think Cleveland would do it, but it would at least make sense for both teams.  I'd consider something like Ayton + Payne for Brown.  Probably wouldn't do that, but I'd at least think about it.  I'd also consider Anthony Davis or Damien Lillard who both may become available this summer (and if Wash was giving away more than Beal I'd consider him as well).  If New Orleans wanted to trade Ingram or Zion, again I think that could make sense. 

I'm sure there are other 1 for 1 type trades that make sense, but there are also 1 for 2 + draft pick trades that I think could work.  Atlanta for example, like Brown, Gallinari for Collins, Bogdanovic, 2 1st's (though I'm not sure the Hawks have any to trade because of Murray).  Obviously Collins and Boggy aren't collectively as good as Brown, but the extra 1st's are helpful and those 2 guys would at least fit stylistically with the C's.  The Nets could offer Bridges, Harris, and a couple of the Phoenix/Dallas 1st's for Brown.  Again Bridges is not as good as Brown, but a solid fit with Tatum and extra draft picks to utilize.  Perhaps the Thunder want to compete next year, I'd think about Holmgren + Dort (and a couple of the billion picks they have) for Brown if Holmgren's medicals checked out. 

Lots of options potentially out there.  Of course none of those players may be available either. 

[Roy H.]

If Boston doesn't win the title, I'd trade him this summer.

Brown for Towns straight up works.  Short of that, I don't see how you get value for Brown.

For the record, I think Brown is a great player.  I am not sure how the advanced stats don't support this.  I don't ignore advanced stats or stats in general but I go a lot by what I see on the court.  What I see in Brown is a smart, hard working, athletic player.  That said, there may be a trade that works, I don't know.

Adding another player, I would trade Brown for Bam Adebayo also.  Not sure if MIA would make that trade, or if MIN would trade Towns, but those are the level of players (and position) that I would consider trading Brown for.

Those are both reasonable trades.  There are others, for example a trade with Toronto for Siakam + other pieces may make sense, like Siakam, Anunoby for Brown, Gallinari, Pritchard, Kornet (something like that).  I think that would make sense for both teams, at least in theory.  I'd call up the Cavs and see if Mobley was available.  I think Brown would slot very nicely into Cleveland with Mitchell, Garland, and Allen, and Mobley would be awesome here as a big man.  There would have to be other salary coming to Boston like Osman + Okoro.  That would be an interesting trade.  I don't think Cleveland would do it, but it would at least make sense for both teams.  I'd consider something like Ayton + Payne for Brown.  Probably wouldn't do that, but I'd at least think about it.  I'd also consider Anthony Davis or Damien Lillard who both may become available this summer (and if Wash was giving away more than Beal I'd consider him as well).  If New Orleans wanted to trade Ingram or Zion, again I think that could make sense. 

I'm sure there are other 1 for 1 type trades that make sense, but there are also 1 for 2 + draft pick trades that I think could work.  Atlanta for example, like Brown, Gallinari for Collins, Bogdanovic, 2 1st's (though I'm not sure the Hawks have any to trade because of Murray).  Obviously Collins and Boggy aren't collectively as good as Brown, but the extra 1st's are helpful and those 2 guys would at least fit stylistically with the C's.  The Nets could offer Bridges, Harris, and a couple of the Phoenix/Dallas 1st's for Brown.  Again Bridges is not as good as Brown, but a solid fit with Tatum and extra draft picks to utilize.  Perhaps the Thunder want to compete next year, I'd think about Holmgren + Dort (and a couple of the billion picks they have) for Brown if Holmgren's medicals checked out. 

Lots of options potentially out there.  Of course none of those players may be available either.

Yeah, I find some of those trades to be heavily slanted in our favor.  Even the JKJB crowd would probably due Brown + Gallo for Siakam + OGA, for instance. 

Unless you're talking the recent Durant deal, though, those are rarely the types of packages that teams receive in trades.