86 Celtics vs 23 Celtics

[bdm860]

I wonder what the 86 team record was at this point of the season.

Also 21-5.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198512180BOS.html

Not even the best record in the league.  Lakers were 23-3 through 26 games.

[slamtheking]

This stuff is fun. I'll give it a shot.
First, Wedman and Sichting were nothing to write home about. Wedman was an all star earlier in his career, but he was on the downside of his career by then and Sichting was basically a shooter.

Bird under today's rules does anything he wants to on the court and it doesn't matter who guards him. Smart vs him would be interesting, but Bird takes him into the low post and that's it.

I also think Bird guards Jaylen and does a decent job of keeping him from getting to the basket.
Brogdon vs Sichting and even Ainge is a total mismatch. He'd be a problem.

Also we still don't know the peak of the current team because Rob isn't involved.  But I think Parish neutralizes him.

I think it comes down to an in his prime McHale vs Tatum. McHale at that time was a great defender and he could guard the best guy on the other team when needed and do a great job. He'd limit JT's ability to get to the basket and would have help from Parish and probably Walton when he's in.  So it comes down to JT's 3 pt shooting.

Also the 86 team has tons of problems with today's style in terms of the ball being moved around the perimeter. The 86 team would score lots of points as well.  The current team, at times, struggles to rebound. 86 would pound the offensive boards and get tons of 2nd chance points. They'd also control the defensive boards. 
All the games would be like 130 to 128.

I think it's a tossup - though personally I think the 84 team is a better matchup because they had Max who would be able to guard both Tatum and Brown - and also Gerald Henderson who's a better match up vs Brogdon.

Wedman and Sichting were both knockdown shooters off the bench.  in this age of 3-point shooting barrages, they'd be living out there providing spacing for Mchale, Parish and Walton to score at will in the post.  Al and Timelord are really good big men to have but neither of them would bother Mchale nor Parish. 

Add in the fact that the current team gets beat on the defensive boards every night against what passes for big men rebounders today, the 86 big men would eat this team alive on the boards. 

I honestly think that as great as we're playing this year, any title team from the 80's would beat this group.  that's not a knock on our guys but a healthy respect for the level of talent that those 80's teams had to have to win a title.  For that matter, the 80's Bucks teams never sniffed a finals appearance but they'd quite possibly beat the current team too.

[Chief]

I wonder what the 86 team record was at this point of the season.

Also 21-5.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198512180BOS.html

Tp!

[Kuberski33]

This stuff is fun. I'll give it a shot.
First, Wedman and Sichting were nothing to write home about. Wedman was an all star earlier in his career, but he was on the downside of his career by then and Sichting was basically a shooter.

Bird under today's rules does anything he wants to on the court and it doesn't matter who guards him. Smart vs him would be interesting, but Bird takes him into the low post and that's it.

I also think Bird guards Jaylen and does a decent job of keeping him from getting to the basket.
Brogdon vs Sichting and even Ainge is a total mismatch. He'd be a problem.

Also we still don't know the peak of the current team because Rob isn't involved.  But I think Parish neutralizes him.

I think it comes down to an in his prime McHale vs Tatum. McHale at that time was a great defender and he could guard the best guy on the other team when needed and do a great job. He'd limit JT's ability to get to the basket and would have help from Parish and probably Walton when he's in.  So it comes down to JT's 3 pt shooting.

Also the 86 team has tons of problems with today's style in terms of the ball being moved around the perimeter. The 86 team would score lots of points as well.  The current team, at times, struggles to rebound. 86 would pound the offensive boards and get tons of 2nd chance points. They'd also control the defensive boards. 
All the games would be like 130 to 128.

I think it's a tossup - though personally I think the 84 team is a better matchup because they had Max who would be able to guard both Tatum and Brown - and also Gerald Henderson who's a better match up vs Brogdon.

Wedman and Sichting were both knockdown shooters off the bench.  in this age of 3-point shooting barrages, they'd be living out there providing spacing for Mchale, Parish and Walton to score at will in the post.  Al and Timelord are really good big men to have but neither of them would bother Mchale nor Parish. 

Add in the fact that the current team gets beat on the defensive boards every night against what passes for big men rebounders today, the 86 big men would eat this team alive on the boards. 

I honestly think that as great as we're playing this year, any title team from the 80's would beat this group.  that's not a knock on our guys but a healthy respect for the level of talent that those 80's teams had to have to win a title.  For that matter, the 80's Bucks teams never sniffed a finals appearance but they'd quite possibly beat the current team too.

Solid points. But I think that the current team's perimeter defending limits those two. Granted you have Bird finding the open man and there's no one better (or even close) - certainly on either roster. But White, Brogdon and Smart - those 3 are great perimeter defenders. Wedman & Sichting get some points, but not a ton. 

[Roy H.]

It's completely impossible to imagine what a big man rotation of Parish / McHale / Bird / Walton would do in today's era.  I don't think our "switch everything" defense can survive that.

[Sophomore]

I remember the 80s teams too. Let me offer this if the game is played under today’s rules.

Who checks Jaylen? DJ was a nice player, but he’s giving away a lot of length and athleticism, and he won’t be able to make it up with hand checks and physicality. Jaylen will be a problem. I think he’d get to the midrange for an open look whenever he wanted. Smart taking Ainge down to the post? Advantage Smart.

On offense, the 86 team would have to play a completely different offensive style. The reason teams no longer play post-ups isn’t that players lost interest; it’s that defenses have a *lot* more latitude to send help and play quasi-zone than they used to, and that disadvantages the post game. I have Al defending McHale, and then Rob checking Parish and playing the free safety role. I’m not sure what happens there - I see the McHale matchup as the 86 team’s biggest *potential* advantage - but would it work under modern rules? Rob would be a real problem for them. Who did they face with that kind of talent, in that kind of scheme?

Bird against Tatum. Must-see tv. Bird is of course a genius, and I’ll assume they’ll use great actions and passing. But the 23 Celtics, locked in, are the best defense in the modern era, with elite length and physicality and connection. The way they stunt and help is something the 80s team didn’t face.

And for the bench, I will take Brogdon and White over Wedman and Sichsting all day. Tatum and Brown switched onto one of those guys will put a *ton* of pressure on the rest of the 80s team D. If the 23 team keeps moving it they’ll get great shots.

[Roy H.]

I remember the 80s teams too. Let me offer this if the game is played under today’s rules.

Who checks Jaylen? DJ was a nice player, but he’s giving away a lot of length and athleticism, and he won’t be able to make it up with hand checks and physicality. Jaylen will be a problem. I think he’d get to the midrange for an open look whenever he wanted. Smart taking Ainge down to the post? Advantage Smart.

On offense, the 86 team would have to play a completely different offensive style. The reason teams no longer play post-ups isn’t that players lost interest; it’s that defenses have a *lot* more latitude to send help and play quasi-zone than they used to, and that disadvantages the post game. I have Al defending McHale, and then Rob checking Parish and playing the free safety role. I’m not sure what happens there - I see the McHale matchup as the 86 team’s biggest *potential* advantage - but would it work under modern rules? Rob would be a real problem for them. Who did they face with that kind of talent, in that kind of scheme?

Bird against Tatum. Must-see tv. Bird is of course a genius, and I’ll assume they’ll use great actions and passing. But the 23 Celtics, locked in, are the best defense in the modern era, with elite length and physicality and connection. The way they stunt and help is something the 80s team didn’t face.

And for the bench, I will take Brogdon and White over Wedman and Sichsting all day. Tatum and Brown switched onto one of those guys will put a *ton* of pressure on the rest of the 80s team D. If the 23 team keeps moving it they’ll get great shots.

One thing you haven't seen:  teams trying to defend the '86 Celtics without hand-checking.

And, Parish / McHale / Bird / Walton were Hall of Fame frontline players while being guarded by the likes of Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Rodman, etc., etc.  To pretend that Timelord or Horford are going to be able to limit them in any way is...  silly.

As for this...

Rob checking Parish and playing the free safety role

Rob is helping off of Parish?  Did you ever watch Robert Parish play?  Rob wouldn't be playing free safety for long.

[Kuberski33]

I remember the 80s teams too. Let me offer this if the game is played under today’s rules.
Who checks Jaylen? DJ was a nice player, but he’s giving away a lot of length and athleticism, and he won’t be able to make it up with hand checks and physicality. Jaylen will be a problem.

I think Bird gets him and they probably switch DJ onto him at times. McHale needs to guard to Tatum. Jaylen would be able to get the midrange shot off pretty much at will vs Bird.  DJ was a heck of an athlete and in 86 was still in his prime. Very similar makeup to Smart.  Come to think of it - Smart vs Jaylen in scrimmages would be fun to watch.

On the other end, Tatum probably does guard Bird and that would be interesting now that I think about it. Michael Cooper gave Bird the most trouble defensively but JT is a lot longer. 

I also agree with Roy though, the switching would have to be toned down - a lot. Bird and DJ were both masters at  identifying mismatches and getting the ball where it needed to go at the right time.

[Roy H.]

I remember the 80s teams too. Let me offer this if the game is played under today’s rules.
Who checks Jaylen? DJ was a nice player, but he’s giving away a lot of length and athleticism, and he won’t be able to make it up with hand checks and physicality. Jaylen will be a problem.

I think Bird gets him and they probably switch DJ onto him at times. McHale needs to guard to Tatum. Jaylen would be able to get the midrange shot off pretty much at will vs Bird.  DJ was a heck of an athlete and in 86 was still in his prime. Very similar makeup to Smart.  Come to think of it - Smart vs Jaylen in scrimmages would be fun to watch.

On the other end, Tatum probably does guard Bird and that would be interesting now that I think about it. Michael Cooper gave Bird the most trouble defensively but JT is a lot longer.

Tatum is longer, but wouldn't be allowed to be as physical.

McHale takes Tatum, DJ takes Brown. 

Tatum's got Bird.

I think that Tatum has to spend significantly more energy guarding Bird than Bird does having to guard...  Timelord?  Horford?  And, energy matters.

[Sophomore]

I grew up on the 80s Celtics.

On the hand checks - absolutely true. I haven’t seen it. It’s a reason this is so hard to predict. I have to think the 80s team would learn to play a connected game. Thing is, they were at the top of the game in a set of rules they were trained and had the talent to exploit. Force them to play under modern rules that give an edge to different types of bodies and players, and they might fall back. Watching old vids, it is shocking how little spacing there often was.

Parish had a nice rainbow jumper, but I don’t remember him shooting outside of 18’ - and he was usually closer. It’s true he was smart with his cuts and movement, so it’s a real question how free Rob would be. But for sure Rob wouldn’t have to be too far from the basket and he covers a ridiculous amount of ground. Be an interesting chess match.

The subs are really an issue. The 23 Cs have an ability to put starters on the floor for 48 minutes that the 86 team would have trouble with. Brogdon and White or Sichting and Wedman. In the modern game i think there’s a big gap.

[Roy H.]

The subs are really an issue. The 23 Cs have an ability to put starters on the floor for 48 minutes that the 86 team would have trouble with. Brogdon and White or Sichting and Wedman. In the modern game i think there’s a big gap.

I'm not sure that there is, because the 86 starters are going to be playing 40 minutes per game, with Walton as sixth man.  Brogdon and White are useful players, but they'd be matched up on Sichting and Wedman a total of maybe 10 minutes per game.  And, who on the Celtics bench can defend any of the 86 bigs when our current squad has foul trouble?  6'4" Grant Williams? Green Kornet? 

[td450]

I remember the 80s teams too. Let me offer this if the game is played under today’s rules.

Who checks Jaylen? DJ was a nice player, but he’s giving away a lot of length and athleticism, and he won’t be able to make it up with hand checks and physicality. Jaylen will be a problem. I think he’d get to the midrange for an open look whenever he wanted. Smart taking Ainge down to the post? Advantage Smart.

On offense, the 86 team would have to play a completely different offensive style. The reason teams no longer play post-ups isn’t that players lost interest; it’s that defenses have a *lot* more latitude to send help and play quasi-zone than they used to, and that disadvantages the post game. I have Al defending McHale, and then Rob checking Parish and playing the free safety role. I’m not sure what happens there - I see the McHale matchup as the 86 team’s biggest *potential* advantage - but would it work under modern rules? Rob would be a real problem for them. Who did they face with that kind of talent, in that kind of scheme?

Bird against Tatum. Must-see tv. Bird is of course a genius, and I’ll assume they’ll use great actions and passing. But the 23 Celtics, locked in, are the best defense in the modern era, with elite length and physicality and connection. The way they stunt and help is something the 80s team didn’t face.

And for the bench, I will take Brogdon and White over Wedman and Sichsting all day. Tatum and Brown switched onto one of those guys will put a *ton* of pressure on the rest of the 80s team D. If the 23 team keeps moving it they’ll get great shots.

The 86 Celtics played against a lot of spectacular athletic wings. Some of them posted huge numbers. It generally didn't matter. They won anyway.

Could the 86 team adjust to an endless barrage of deep shooting? Could the 23 team deal with a massively bigger, smarter, more skilled team than they've ever seen before? It most likely would boil down to Bird being better at making real time adjustments than anyone else.

[Sophomore]

The subs are really an issue. The 23 Cs have an ability to put starters on the floor for 48 minutes that the 86 team would have trouble with. Brogdon and White or Sichting and Wedman. In the modern game i think there’s a big gap.

I'm not sure that there is, because the 86 starters are going to be playing 40 minutes per game, with Walton as sixth man.  Brogdon and White are useful players, but they'd be matched up on Sichting and Wedman a total of maybe 10 minutes per game.  And, who on the Celtics bench can defend any of the 86 bigs when our current squad has foul trouble?  6'4" Grant Williams? Green Kornet?

The advantage I was thinking of was that Sichting and Wedman would be hunted on defense. White and Brogdon are, in comparison, much more complete 2-way players. Even Grant. The rest of the 86 team has to help, and what makes the 23 team offense special is the way it bends the defense at the weak point and forces reactions that create open shots.

On the other end, I can’t remember Wedman attacking anybody off the bounce. Sichting maybe but he was nowhere near White or Brogdon.

I would definitely pay to see the games, I can say that.

[Birdman]

86 team won a championship.. will this team? Long season

[slamtheking]

I grew up on the 80s Celtics.

On the hand checks - absolutely true. I haven’t seen it. It’s a reason this is so hard to predict. I have to think the 80s team would learn to play a connected game. Thing is, they were at the top of the game in a set of rules they were trained and had the talent to exploit. Force them to play under modern rules that give an edge to different types of bodies and players, and they might fall back. Watching old vids, it is shocking how little spacing there often was.

Parish had a nice rainbow jumper, but I don’t remember him shooting outside of 18’ - and he was usually closer. It’s true he was smart with his cuts and movement, so it’s a real question how free Rob would be. But for sure Rob wouldn’t have to be too far from the basket and he covers a ridiculous amount of ground. Be an interesting chess match.

The subs are really an issue. The 23 Cs have an ability to put starters on the floor for 48 minutes that the 86 team would have trouble with. Brogdon and White or Sichting and Wedman. In the modern game i think there’s a big gap.

Parish didn't have to go outside 18 feet for it.  no one could block that rainbow jumper.  add in his patented spin move off his defender for a dunk.  neither Al nor Timelord would stop him. 
Mchale - no one stops him in the post.  the man would split double and triple teams with regularity and still score a high percentage.  and that's against physical centers and PFs, not the current crop that are more streamlined for running.
--> Al and Timelord do not require the same defensive effort for Mchale and Parish.  if anything, I would expect Mchale to take Tatum while Bird deals with either Al or Timelord.
Bird - Tatum has the body type to offer a good defensive option but this is Bird.  even if Tatum could impact Bird's shooting (not ruling it out but Bird could score on anyone) he wouldn't disrupt Bird's ability to pick apart defenses with his passing.  Tatum is likely defended by Mchale who always took the tougher forward assignment and excelled.
DJ and Ainge - tough defenders that would do well on Marcus -- post moves or drives wouldn't matter.  Their problem would be dealing with Jaylen at SG.  Jaylen's propensity to fall asleep on team D would get exploited by the passing of Bird and DJ.

Bench, I'd give 2023 the nod here.  more shooters and defenders in the back court.  I'd still take Walton over Kornet and Blake though.  Walton's passing and rebounding would be yet another problem I don't see 2023 able to contend with.  Wedman and Sichting would have serious issues staying with anyone on the 2023 team but their shooting makes them threats the 2023 team can't cheat off of. 

We've all seen how this team struggles against big teams that control the boards or have a number of shooters they can put on the floor.  86 team didn't struggle against any team and steamrolled the league that year.

bottom line in a 7 game series, 86 team in 5.