86 Celtics vs 23 Celtics

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If you can't be 80's physical with Bird and McHale then it's game over.

This is kind of at the heart of my question, what era of refereeing do we get?

If the 2023 team can't play aggressive 80's era def against the 86 team, I think the current team would have trouble with the '86 bigs.  The 2023 team doesn't have the size (beef) to limit Bird, McHale, Parish, Walton or to run the switching def that we do now.

But I also think that 'nostalgia' probably plays into this a lot.  I, like a lot of us, grew up with the 1980's Celtic teams.  They won titles, so they must be better?  Well maybe not.  It feels like Bird and Tatum cancel each other out a bit.

'86 team - smarter, bigger, more title experience, play with more of an edge, more confident, better front line
'23 team - quicker, more athletic, better 3 point shooting, probably better team def.

[Roy H.]

If you can't be 80's physical with Bird and McHale then it's game over.

This is kind of at the heart of my question, what era of refereeing do we get?

If the 2023 team can't play aggressive 80's era def against the 86 team, I think the current team would have trouble with the '86 bigs.  The 2023 team doesn't have the size (beef) to limit Bird, McHale, Parish, Walton or to run the switching def that we do now.

But I also think that 'nostalgia' probably plays into this a lot.  I, like a lot of us, grew up with the 1980's Celtic teams.  They won titles, so they must be better?  Well maybe not.  It feels like Bird and Tatum cancel each other out a bit.

'86 team - smarter, bigger, more title experience, play with more of an edge, more confident, better front line
'23 team - quicker, more athletic, better 3 point shooting, probably better team def.

Bird was a 3x MVP ('84, '85, '86), 3x champion.  Tatum isn't cancelling him out, particularly in an era with no hand-checking.  That's not nostalgia.

And, the 1986 bigs are dominating our current team, regardless of the rules.  Even if the refs allow clutching, grabbing, and bumping, there's no way the 1986 bigs are being stopped.  If some of the greatest big man defenders of all-time couldn't do it with advantageous defensive rules, then lesser defenders like Horford and Williams won't slow them down in the modern era.

[gouki88]

It's completely impossible to imagine what a big man rotation of Parish / McHale / Bird / Walton would do in today's era.  I don't think our "switch everything" defense can survive that.

Are you trying to say Luke Kornet couldn’t guard Walton?

[BASS_THUMPER]

They were built different.....
 
better than 2022/23/24/25/26

*sippin*

[BASS_THUMPER]

It's completely impossible to imagine what a big man rotation of Parish / McHale / Bird / Walton would do in today's era.  I don't think our "switch everything" defense can survive that.

Are you trying to say Luke Kornet couldn’t guard Walton?

[Somebody]

I don't think it's fair to compare one of our greatest teams to one that's 26 games into the season. But I think any conversation regarding this will have to rest on your evaluation of Mazzulla: older fans can very well argue that '87 McHale was better than this iteration of Jayson Tatum, and it wasn't like that '86 Celtics team lacked depth either (although I do favour the bench of '23 once Robert comes back).

[Somebody]

If you can't be 80's physical with Bird and McHale then it's game over.

This is kind of at the heart of my question, what era of refereeing do we get?

If the 2023 team can't play aggressive 80's era def against the 86 team, I think the current team would have trouble with the '86 bigs.  The 2023 team doesn't have the size (beef) to limit Bird, McHale, Parish, Walton or to run the switching def that we do now.

But I also think that 'nostalgia' probably plays into this a lot.  I, like a lot of us, grew up with the 1980's Celtic teams.  They won titles, so they must be better?  Well maybe not.  It feels like Bird and Tatum cancel each other out a bit.

'86 team - smarter, bigger, more title experience, play with more of an edge, more confident, better front line
'23 team - quicker, more athletic, better 3 point shooting, probably better team def.

Bird was a 3x MVP ('84, '85, '86), 3x champion.  Tatum isn't cancelling him out, particularly in an era with no hand-checking.  That's not nostalgia.

And, the 1986 bigs are dominating our current team, regardless of the rules.  Even if the refs allow clutching, grabbing, and bumping, there's no way the 1986 bigs are being stopped.  If some of the greatest big man defenders of all-time couldn't do it with advantageous defensive rules, then lesser defenders like Horford and Williams won't slow them down in the modern era.

To be fair Horford isn't that poor of a defender even when compared to historical defensive anchors: I think he's in line with players like Kemp (and I'm not sure how much has he regressed as a defender - he seems to have compensated for his loss in speed and athleticism very well with added strength and better reading of the game). I'm still trying to evaluate how good Robert is, but there's no reason to assume that he can't do a job like Caldwell Jones on the '86 bigs.

I think the issue with this current Celtics team facing that '86 squad is McHale: he could defend Tatum reasonably well (people forget that he was the SF on defence for the Celtics during the mid-80s and chased wings like Alex English, James Worthy, Dominique Wilkins, etc around) and would force the '23 team to go big right out of the gate, whittling down the current squad's advantage in speed and three point shooting while allowing Bird to 'hide' on Horford. It's not Parish or Walton eating Robert or Horford alive, it's the versatility and excellence of McHale being a constant thorn in the '23 squad's side.

[Somebody]

Just realised that I didn't mention Bird, but yeah he's an absurd player who's on a completely different level compared to everyone else in this matchup. 

[RockinRyA]

I really dislike direct comparisons that span era. If you use relative comparisons its acceptable though.

[Somebody]

I remember the 80s teams too. Let me offer this if the game is played under today’s rules.

Who checks Jaylen? DJ was a nice player, but he’s giving away a lot of length and athleticism, and he won’t be able to make it up with hand checks and physicality. Jaylen will be a problem. I think he’d get to the midrange for an open look whenever he wanted. Smart taking Ainge down to the post? Advantage Smart.

On offense, the 86 team would have to play a completely different offensive style. The reason teams no longer play post-ups isn’t that players lost interest; it’s that defenses have a *lot* more latitude to send help and play quasi-zone than they used to, and that disadvantages the post game. I have Al defending McHale, and then Rob checking Parish and playing the free safety role. I’m not sure what happens there - I see the McHale matchup as the 86 team’s biggest *potential* advantage - but would it work under modern rules? Rob would be a real problem for them. Who did they face with that kind of talent, in that kind of scheme?

Bird against Tatum. Must-see tv. Bird is of course a genius, and I’ll assume they’ll use great actions and passing. But the 23 Celtics, locked in, are the best defense in the modern era, with elite length and physicality and connection. The way they stunt and help is something the 80s team didn’t face.

And for the bench, I will take Brogdon and White over Wedman and Sichsting all day. Tatum and Brown switched onto one of those guys will put a *ton* of pressure on the rest of the 80s team D. If the 23 team keeps moving it they’ll get great shots.

I get that '86 DJ was nowhere near the athlete he was as a Sonic/Sun, but this was a player who's one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever: there's no shortage of people who consider him as the next best defender after the 'big three' guard defenders in Frazier, Moncrief and Kidd. He's also not giving up as much size as people would think (he was listed at 6'4, but he feels like a 6'5 guard who's functionally even taller due to his absurd wingspan), and I trust him to have enough defensive tricks up his sleeve to make up for the difference in athleticism.

McHale would probably have some problems in navigating through screens while chasing Tatum around, but I think Parish and Walton (Walton in particular) can play up to the level of the screen and force Tatum to make decisions instead of walking into pullup threes off the PnR (Brook Lopez has done this very well in recent years, so it doesn't take a drop centre on the level of Rudy Gobert to effectively defend in the PnR even when there's a pullup threat). McHale would probably have a really good time on offence though: the rules have made it easier for teams to zone in on great postup bigs, but McHale wasn't really the type of player to pound the ball for eternity in the post until he got very old, which allows the Celtics to run off-ball sets for him to seal inside position for quick baskets (you'll have to admit that the modern game is much more friendly for these kinds of sets).

What I see the '23 team doing is to pressure the Celtics backcourt with their own all-time great guard defender in Smart (as well as White/Jaylen on the off-guard) and force Bird to bring the ball up (I don't think Bird has a poor handle, but he's similar to Durant in this regard where I think pressure from defenders that the Celtics have can lead to TOs that elite ballhandlers would avoid). The trapping defence would also serve well in forcing the '86 squad to be quick with their actions and generating transition opportunities when they don't.

[Somebody]

I really dislike direct comparisons that span era. If you use relative comparisons its acceptable though.

I was mainly talking about how good those players are relative to their era (if you were referring to the Horford/Kemp and Robert/Jones comparisons, that was more of a relative comparison where I think their abilities are similar even though they did have similar real-life defensive impact). I don't think a lot changes for McHale though, his '87 campaign would be viewed as an MVP candidate in a weaker year in the modern era (or a normal/strong one with the right narrative/situation around him), which is right in line with the season Tatum is having right now.

[RockinRyA]

I really dislike direct comparisons that span era. If you use relative comparisons its acceptable though.

I was mainly talking about how good those players are relative to their era (if you were referring to the Horford/Kemp and Robert/Jones comparisons, that was more of a relative comparison where I think their abilities are similar even though they did have similar real-life defensive impact). I don't think a lot changes for McHale though, his '87 campaign would be viewed as an MVP candidate in a weaker year in the modern era (or a normal/strong one with the right narrative/situation around him), which is right in line with the season Tatum is having right now.

My statement werent directed to you tbh. Its more on the way the conversation has been devolving into.

[Celtics17]

McHale dies as he pleases in this series and averages 35. Bird sites the modern NBA who the real king of the three point line is and Parrish and Walton pound this year's squad into the floor.

The 86 is the best basketball I've ever seen and they aren't challenged by this year's team.  Danny Ainge was very a very deceptive player and is the best all around athlete in either squad and yes DJ can guard JB and shut him down.

The 86 squad owns the boards and the interior and they were absolutely amazing in half court defense.  Series is over in 5 games!

[Moranis]

This is a ridiculous thread on so many levels. 

First, the Celtics haven't won a title in 15 years and have been to the finals only once in the last decade+.  There is no comparison to the Celtics team that was marching to its 4th finals appearance and 3rd title with the core (they'd end up with 5 finals appearances and 3 titles).

Second, Bird was the best player in the world and had been off and on for the basically 7 years at that point (and had been a top 2 or 3 player that entire time).  Tatum is arguably not even a top 3 player in the sport right now and this is clearly his best season (being the front runner for MVP is not the same thing as best player - Giannis is clearly the best player in the sport and guys like Jokic, Doncic, Curry, Durant, Embiid are right there with or better than Tatum).

Third, the 86 Celtics are one of the 10 greatest teams in the sports history (65 Celtics, 67 Sixers, 71 Bucks, 72 Lakers, 83 Sixers, 87 Lakers, 96 Bulls, 01 Lakers, 17 Warriors).  It has yet to be determined if Boston is even the best team this season.  Great start, but they do actually have to finish it.

[Kernewek]

The youngest player in the '86 rotation is 60+, right? Surely that has to count against them.