Celtics Undervaluing Grant?

[Celtics2021]

Al will rebuff leaving for a couple dollars, give a hometown disclunt, and get a decent contract in the $12M AAV range. I see him prioritizing winning in Boston and stability over leaving over money issues. The Sixers/Thunder seasons have to be fresh in his mind. He’s highly valued here and I think he retires a Celtic.

I think Grant will get 20-50% more than Al; not because he’s a more important or productive player right now, but he’ll be 24 next offseason and projects to be over the life of the contract.

They’re making $30.8M this season with Al taking up 85% of it. I think that they’ll try to hold to that figure with Grant taking a 60% split.

Every player on this team except for Al and Malcolm are signed to a discounted rate, Al will leave money on the table to stay beyond next season, there’ll be a significant rise in the salary cap, and this team is one of the most profitable teams in the league, Wyc has no excuse to let Al or Grant walk because of money.

For me, the real salary cap issue will be in 2024-25 when Jaylen gets a significant raise, Payton gets an extension and increase in minutes, White and Brogdon will be expiring, and we have to choose between two of the three guards to continue the dynasty.

I wouldn’t count on Al taking a discount.  We’ve seen him leave the Hawks and the Celtics when he felt he wasn’t being negotiated with for his full value.  Maybe that changes this time because he knows he’s at the end of his career, but it would definitely be a change in how he/his agent handles things.

I would

he won't get a contract matching what he has now but he's going to look to get as much as he can in what will likely be his final one.  if he takes less than $18 mill a year, I'd be surprised unless his productivity just dies off this season in which case, C's likely won't want him back.

Who do you think will offer more than $18 million per year?

No one. Outside of Boston Horford will be valued, at best, as a non-taxpayer MLE free agent. $10-13 million a year on a three year deal sounds about right for him to stay here.

I'm not sure who'll have cap room to get him but my viewpoint is based more on how much of a cut that would already be.  If he's productive this year I really wonder how much of a reduction he'd take to stay a C.  I'd gladly pay him half his current deal or less but I just don't see him taking that much of a cut

It won't matter what he wants. What matters is what someone is willing to offer. No one outside the Celtics is going to give a 37 year old Horford anything more than a non-taxpayer MLE for 2-3 years. No one.

So if Boston offers say a 3 year $36 million contract with the last year a team option or partially guaranteed, Horford is going to take it because it's slightly above market value and because both he and his wife love Boston and love the team.

I want to clarify that people have been using this year's MLE, which is  $33 million in a 3-year deal.  That's what PJ Tucker got.  Next year will be 3 years, ~$36 million.  Al Horford is better than PJ Tucker, and will absolutely get that from someone.  The Celtics will exceed that by a polite amount, presumably, which is why it'll probably be 3 years $40 million.

Memphis could make it interesting, however, if they let Dillon Brooks walk, because they could have ~$14 million in cap space and an otherwise complete roster.  They could probably offer Horford somewhere around 3 years, $45 million if they liked him enough.  It wouldn't fit into the pattern of how they've built that team, but they have the ability to offer someone about a 25% premium on the MLE if they so choose.

[slamtheking]

Al will rebuff leaving for a couple dollars, give a hometown disclunt, and get a decent contract in the $12M AAV range. I see him prioritizing winning in Boston and stability over leaving over money issues. The Sixers/Thunder seasons have to be fresh in his mind. He’s highly valued here and I think he retires a Celtic.

I think Grant will get 20-50% more than Al; not because he’s a more important or productive player right now, but he’ll be 24 next offseason and projects to be over the life of the contract.

They’re making $30.8M this season with Al taking up 85% of it. I think that they’ll try to hold to that figure with Grant taking a 60% split.

Every player on this team except for Al and Malcolm are signed to a discounted rate, Al will leave money on the table to stay beyond next season, there’ll be a significant rise in the salary cap, and this team is one of the most profitable teams in the league, Wyc has no excuse to let Al or Grant walk because of money.

For me, the real salary cap issue will be in 2024-25 when Jaylen gets a significant raise, Payton gets an extension and increase in minutes, White and Brogdon will be expiring, and we have to choose between two of the three guards to continue the dynasty.

I wouldn’t count on Al taking a discount.  We’ve seen him leave the Hawks and the Celtics when he felt he wasn’t being negotiated with for his full value.  Maybe that changes this time because he knows he’s at the end of his career, but it would definitely be a change in how he/his agent handles things.

I would

he won't get a contract matching what he has now but he's going to look to get as much as he can in what will likely be his final one.  if he takes less than $18 mill a year, I'd be surprised unless his productivity just dies off this season in which case, C's likely won't want him back.

Who do you think will offer more than $18 million per year?

No one. Outside of Boston Horford will be valued, at best, as a non-taxpayer MLE free agent. $10-13 million a year on a three year deal sounds about right for him to stay here.

I'm not sure who'll have cap room to get him but my viewpoint is based more on how much of a cut that would already be.  If he's productive this year I really wonder how much of a reduction he'd take to stay a C.  I'd gladly pay him half his current deal or less but I just don't see him taking that much of a cut

It won't matter what he wants. What matters is what someone is willing to offer. No one outside the Celtics is going to give a 37 year old Horford anything more than a non-taxpayer MLE for 2-3 years. No one.

So if Boston offers say a 3 year $36 million contract with the last year a team option or partially guaranteed, Horford is going to take it because it's slightly above market value and because both he and his wife love Boston and love the team.

the bolded is true.  my contention is that a number of posters assume he's going to take a team-friendly deal to resign here -- in several opinions apparently that would represent less than a MLE deal.  I don't see that as realistic.  Al will likely want to get paid as much as he can in his final deal but might take a little less from the C's but not a lot less if someone offers him a better deal.  if we win the title this year, he's now got that under his belt and may take even less of a home team discount.

[sgrogan]

Al will rebuff leaving for a couple dollars, give a hometown disclunt, and get a decent contract in the $12M AAV range. I see him prioritizing winning in Boston and stability over leaving over money issues. The Sixers/Thunder seasons have to be fresh in his mind. He’s highly valued here and I think he retires a Celtic.

I think Grant will get 20-50% more than Al; not because he’s a more important or productive player right now, but he’ll be 24 next offseason and projects to be over the life of the contract.

They’re making $30.8M this season with Al taking up 85% of it. I think that they’ll try to hold to that figure with Grant taking a 60% split.

Every player on this team except for Al and Malcolm are signed to a discounted rate, Al will leave money on the table to stay beyond next season, there’ll be a significant rise in the salary cap, and this team is one of the most profitable teams in the league, Wyc has no excuse to let Al or Grant walk because of money.

For me, the real salary cap issue will be in 2024-25 when Jaylen gets a significant raise, Payton gets an extension and increase in minutes, White and Brogdon will be expiring, and we have to choose between two of the three guards to continue the dynasty.

I wouldn’t count on Al taking a discount.  We’ve seen him leave the Hawks and the Celtics when he felt he wasn’t being negotiated with for his full value.  Maybe that changes this time because he knows he’s at the end of his career, but it would definitely be a change in how he/his agent handles things.

I would

he won't get a contract matching what he has now but he's going to look to get as much as he can in what will likely be his final one.  if he takes less than $18 mill a year, I'd be surprised unless his productivity just dies off this season in which case, C's likely won't want him back.

Who do you think will offer more than $18 million per year?

No one. Outside of Boston Horford will be valued, at best, as a non-taxpayer MLE free agent. $10-13 million a year on a three year deal sounds about right for him to stay here.

I'm not sure who'll have cap room to get him but my viewpoint is based more on how much of a cut that would already be.  If he's productive this year I really wonder how much of a reduction he'd take to stay a C.  I'd gladly pay him half his current deal or less but I just don't see him taking that much of a cut

It won't matter what he wants. What matters is what someone is willing to offer. No one outside the Celtics is going to give a 37 year old Horford anything more than a non-taxpayer MLE for 2-3 years. No one.

So if Boston offers say a 3 year $36 million contract with the last year a team option or partially guaranteed, Horford is going to take it because it's slightly above market value and because both he and his wife love Boston and love the team.

I want to clarify that people have been using this year's MLE, which is  $33 million in a 3-year deal.  That's what PJ Tucker got.  Next year will be 3 years, ~$36 million.  Al Horford is better than PJ Tucker, and will absolutely get that from someone.  The Celtics will exceed that by a polite amount, presumably, which is why it'll probably be 3 years $40 million.

Memphis could make it interesting, however, if they let Dillon Brooks walk, because they could have ~$14 million in cap space and an otherwise complete roster.  They could probably offer Horford somewhere around 3 years, $45 million if they liked him enough.  It wouldn't fit into the pattern of how they've built that team, but they have the ability to offer someone about a 25% premium on the MLE if they so choose.

TP
The projected MLE for nest year is $11.37M based on a $134M cap.
I think most would agree this is the number to negotiate off of.

Al is an integral part of what has been the best team in the NBA for the 50 or so regular season games.
He's our starting PF who has been filling in as our starting C.
Barring trades, the Celtics don't have much to replace him.
He's also 36 years old and there are market constraints that limit what other teams can offer.

I think being polite, as Celtics2021, or "negotiating in good faith" is important to Al, and a lot of players.
I think to a lot of players this is perceived as "respect"
In the past at least, Al has shown a willingness to walk, if he feels he's being jerked around.

So a 3/40 contract isn't necessarily outrageous. It might be "above market"
But if it's a descending contract with a partial guarantee or team option for the last year it probably fair for both sides.
Al feels respected.
The team has some protection if Al's play falls off.
If a team like Memphis somehow gets involved, maybe Al takes a discount, because he feels like he wasn't "jerked around"

[nickagneta]

Al will rebuff leaving for a couple dollars, give a hometown disclunt, and get a decent contract in the $12M AAV range. I see him prioritizing winning in Boston and stability over leaving over money issues. The Sixers/Thunder seasons have to be fresh in his mind. He’s highly valued here and I think he retires a Celtic.

I think Grant will get 20-50% more than Al; not because he’s a more important or productive player right now, but he’ll be 24 next offseason and projects to be over the life of the contract.

They’re making $30.8M this season with Al taking up 85% of it. I think that they’ll try to hold to that figure with Grant taking a 60% split.

Every player on this team except for Al and Malcolm are signed to a discounted rate, Al will leave money on the table to stay beyond next season, there’ll be a significant rise in the salary cap, and this team is one of the most profitable teams in the league, Wyc has no excuse to let Al or Grant walk because of money.

For me, the real salary cap issue will be in 2024-25 when Jaylen gets a significant raise, Payton gets an extension and increase in minutes, White and Brogdon will be expiring, and we have to choose between two of the three guards to continue the dynasty.

I wouldn’t count on Al taking a discount.  We’ve seen him leave the Hawks and the Celtics when he felt he wasn’t being negotiated with for his full value.  Maybe that changes this time because he knows he’s at the end of his career, but it would definitely be a change in how he/his agent handles things.

I would

he won't get a contract matching what he has now but he's going to look to get as much as he can in what will likely be his final one.  if he takes less than $18 mill a year, I'd be surprised unless his productivity just dies off this season in which case, C's likely won't want him back.

Who do you think will offer more than $18 million per year?

No one. Outside of Boston Horford will be valued, at best, as a non-taxpayer MLE free agent. $10-13 million a year on a three year deal sounds about right for him to stay here.

I'm not sure who'll have cap room to get him but my viewpoint is based more on how much of a cut that would already be.  If he's productive this year I really wonder how much of a reduction he'd take to stay a C.  I'd gladly pay him half his current deal or less but I just don't see him taking that much of a cut

It won't matter what he wants. What matters is what someone is willing to offer. No one outside the Celtics is going to give a 37 year old Horford anything more than a non-taxpayer MLE for 2-3 years. No one.

So if Boston offers say a 3 year $36 million contract with the last year a team option or partially guaranteed, Horford is going to take it because it's slightly above market value and because both he and his wife love Boston and love the team.

I want to clarify that people have been using this year's MLE, which is  $33 million in a 3-year deal.  That's what PJ Tucker got.  Next year will be 3 years, ~$36 million.  Al Horford is better than PJ Tucker, and will absolutely get that from someone.  The Celtics will exceed that by a polite amount, presumably, which is why it'll probably be 3 years $40 million.

Memphis could make it interesting, however, if they let Dillon Brooks walk, because they could have ~$14 million in cap space and an otherwise complete roster.  They could probably offer Horford somewhere around 3 years, $45 million if they liked him enough.  It wouldn't fit into the pattern of how they've built that team, but they have the ability to offer someone about a 25% premium on the MLE if they so choose.

I didn't run the numbers for what the MLE was, so thanks for the clarification, but my point still was his market will be the non-taxpayer MLE and that I can see Brad giving him something 10-15% north of that on a 3 year deal with a team option or partial guarantee his last year. I just don't see a market for 37 year old Al Horford that will beat that. You mentioned Memphis in another post but I could see Memphis more willing to offer something to a Grant Williams or Harrison Barnes, before considering Horford.

[Vermont Green]

This thread about Grant is now discussing Horford.  It get it, I agree there is a relationship but I don't believe the Celtics are going to view this as we need to get Grant and Horford back for $31M or less.  I think they should be able to get them both for less than that, but I don't see that as a constraint.  More just a coincidence.

I also agree that the marketplace for both is likely constrained by the MLE slots.  There is quite a difference between the Tax payer and non-Tax payer MLEs (projected $11.0M and $6.8M).  The logic for me is only contending teams would be interesting in Horford and most contending teams are taxpayer teams (Memphis may be one exception).  I think that is going to really constrain the marketplace for Horford.  Horford is right now a productive starter on a contending team.  But he is going to be roster slot 4-6 on most teams.  I don't think he is a starter on Memphis (Adams and Jackson are their staring bigs now and both are under contract for several years).  So is Horford their 6th man?  7th?

The calculus on Grant is different.  I am not sure what teams exactly are going to be willing to offer non-tax MLE money for him.  I don't see him getting any offers the Celtics aren't willing to match.  He is not as good as Horford so can you expect him to get bigger offers than Horford just because he is younger and can hit the corner 3?  Is he a starter for a contending or even an average NBA team?  We'll see.

[Roy H.]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

[nickagneta]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

That would be me, as I was first to mention it. You see, my real name is Danny Ainge.😁

[sgrogan]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

That would be me, as I was first to mention it. You see, my real name is Danny Ainge.😁

No offense, but I think its Celtics2021

[nickagneta]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

That would be me, as I was first to mention it. You see, my real name is Danny Ainge.😁

No offense, but I think its Celtics2021

No, he's Brad Stevens.

[sgrogan]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

That would be me, as I was first to mention it. You see, my real name is Danny Ainge.😁

No offense, but I think its Celtics2021

No, he's Brad Stevens.

TP

[Vermont Green]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

That would be me, as I was first to mention it. You see, my real name is Danny Ainge.😁

No offense, but I think its Celtics2021

I have wondered about that too.  Wondering if there is any currently not employed past GMs with family ties to Boston that could have started posting here around 2021.  He wouldn't be the current western conference executive that was quoted but perhaps a former western conference executive that keeps us all informed on the nuances of the CBA.

Either that or Celtics2021 is just a fan with a photographic memory or something.

[Roy H.]

On Horford...

“Most of the teams with money next year are young,” said one Western Conference executive, who estimated a two-year deal in the $20-25 million range. “They’re not going to be lining up to give Horford a big contract. The Celtics will control the market on that. They’ll be fair to him but they are a tax team and they’ll need to watch every dime.”

Another league source had that as a low offer, and said it is more likely that Horford gets a three-year deal, probably with the third year at an option or only partially guaranteed. “He can still play, he is in great shape,” the source said. “If you did around $13 million or $14 million a year, about $40 or $42 million total, that is what you’d expect to see. You never know how the market is going to play out on a guy like him, though.”

One Eastern Conference exec made the most sense, suggesting that the Celtics would most likely want to keep their payroll stable, and that the upcoming salaries of Horford and forward Grant Williams (a restricted free agent this summer) should be taken in conjunction.

“Right now, you’re paying those guys $30 million,” the exec said. “They don’t want to add a bunch of salary, so if you can keep them below $30 million in starting money next year, it is not a bad situation. Other guys are going up, so you’d like to save where you can. If you start (Grant) Williams at $16-17 million or so, you can go to $11-12 million for Al and still keep yourself around $180 million in payroll. They want both of those guys around so they have to think about them as  a sliding scale.”

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/al-horford-contract-ben-simmons/

In other words, pretty much exactly what we've been saying.  Which one of you is the Western Conference executive?

That would be me, as I was first to mention it. You see, my real name is Danny Ainge.😁

No offense, but I think its Celtics2021

No, he's Brad Stevens.

More like Mike Zarren, except that Zarren wouldn't talk to Heavy.com, haha.