Draymond may get suspended

[byennie]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

[nickagneta]

When it comes to disciplining Draymond, who really is the decision makers? Is a fight at a team practice considered a team incident and therefore up to the team to implement disciplinary action or do all fights between any NBA employees fall under the umbrella of league rules and discipline?

People want to compare it to Udoka's discipline but that was completely the Celtics implementing team punishment for violation of team rules. The league had nothing to do with it.

If the league feels this is a team decision to enact punishment since it did not happen during a game but at a closed team practice and wasn't a fight between players on different teams, then it's up to the Warriors to take action. So if no fine or suspension is doled out by GSW, people need to focus their anger at the Warriors ownership and management for not having the balls to do the right thing and dish out the punishment warranted from a fist fight between employees(or if you want to frame it as an attack by on employee on another, that's fine too).

Boston's decision to do the right thing at the cost of possibly losing games, is admirable and the right thing to do. If the Warriors let all this slide, then we know where their priorities lie, and it paints them in a very bad light. Even more so since it appears they are more concerned over a leak than they are employee safety and abiding by franchise rules.

[KG Living Legend]

When it comes to disciplining Draymond, who really is the decision makers? Is a fight at a team practice considered a team incident and therefore up to the team to implement disciplinary action or do all fights between any NBA employees fall under the umbrella of league rules and discipline?

People want to compare it to Udoka's discipline but that was completely the Celtics implementing team punishment for violation of team rules. The league had nothing to do with it.

If the league feels this is a team decision to enact punishment since it did not happen during a game but at a closed team practice and wasn't a fight between players on different teams, then it's up to the Warriors to take action. So if no fine or suspension is doled out by GSW, people need to focus their anger at the Warriors ownership and management for not having the balls to do the right thing and dish out the punishment warranted from a fist fight between employees(or if you want to frame it as an attack by on employee on another, that's fine too).

Boston's decision to do the right thing at the cost of possibly losing games, is admirable and the right thing to do. If the Warriors let all this slide, then we know where their priorities lie, and it paints them in a very bad light. Even more so since it appears they are more concerned over a leak than they are employee safety and abiding by franchise rules.

 Good points especially the last one.  However if Ime or Draymond don't get punished by the team, Can and should the NBA come in and punish them.

[gouki88]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

What a load of utter garbage. Throwing a closed fist punch that connects like this amongst teammates is incredibly infrequent.

This is also a workplace, as much as you may like to pretend otherwise. They're subject to certain standards. Welcome to the 21st century, where giving unsuspecting teammates haymakers is actually a bad thing.

[Kernewek]

If Draymond doesn’t serve a severe suspension and possible criminal charges then the team/league is protecting the on-court products over their supposed morals— full stop.

It is not morals. It is PR.

---------------------------------------------------

Rambling on ...


So much of this nonsense is fake morality as a form of virtue signaling. Showing how good of a person you are by how willing you to severely punish whatever offense occured. The larger the punishment the more moral a human being you are. The better the human being you are.

Whether that is the one doing the punishing (team owners, league front office) or folks calling for more severe punishments (fans on social media).


"I prove how good of a person I am by showing everyone how severe a punishment I'd give this other person" and the punishments just keep escalating and escalating ... to the point they are no longer connected the original offense / crime. It is not about the offense. It is about the virtue signalling of morality for the punishers and the mob foaming at the mouth calling for more punishment.

1. The NBA just had an owner forced out of the league for behaviour that occurred behind the scenes/out of the public eye and you have high-profile NBA employees going out in public saying "We need to make sure that everyone knows we will do our best to make sure that no one ever knows about these behaviours".

You're talking about virtue signalling in terms of punishment, but what you're not understanding is that in light of of these "protect the house, find the leaker" comments, it's clear that the NBA is engaging in virtue signalling when it talks about employee safety (including things like the Ime or Sarver situations) or social justice issues. That's pretty crap, even if it's not surprising.

This isn't about fighting - this is about the team organisation coming together (in a climate of increasing accountability) and saying "We aren't going to do anything to punish Green, we are just making sure things like this stay out of the public eye".

2. It's a weird presumption to assume that the people who have a problem with this are people who've never been in locker rooms. I'm sure many of us have played more inherently violent sports than basketball, and behaving like Draymond would have gotten you thrown off the team, 100%. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that anyone who says that throwing hooks like this is a regular thing either never played or played on some massively toxic teams.

[Moranis]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

except fights happen among teammates in team sports all of the time. In NFL training camp there are physical fights every single off season for every single team. This one may be a bit worse than most, but it happens all of the time.  It is just a different workplace than the normal one.

For example, here is a brawl from August where haymakers were thrown

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/video-shows-major-fight-at-giants-training-camp-that-involves-multiple-players-and-even-an-assistant-coach/

[Birdman]

Aaron Donald was flinging his helmet against the Bengals in August and nothing was done..

[Neurotic Guy]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

The current cold civil war that exists in America encourages us to declare ourselves either to head in the direction of a more thoughtful/ less impulsive, gentler society, or one that accepts violent impulses as normal human behavior  - a natural part of living in a society of humans.   I don’t favor lifetime punishments for a lapse of control, but when the action was as dangerous/intimidating as DG’s I do think the message isn’t ‘boys will be boys’. He’s a grown man. Men (adults) who get frustrated don’t throw haymakers and if they do it isn’t  ok. Calling that view out as fake morality is a proclamation that one’s own view is the only legitimate view.  This type of marginalization of others’ perspective is a recipe for sustained conflict.


DG was not even in the throes of competitive battle.  He calmly (seemingly) stalked and attacked. Had he swung at a coach, a reporter - or any non-player for that matter - there would be no ‘just shake hands’ argument.

[byennie]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

except fights happen among teammates in team sports all of the time. In NFL training camp there are physical fights every single off season for every single team. This one may be a bit worse than most, but it happens all of the time.  It is just a different workplace than the normal one.

For example, here is a brawl from August where haymakers were thrown

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/video-shows-major-fight-at-giants-training-camp-that-involves-multiple-players-and-even-an-assistant-coach/

The "it happens all the time" argument has been offered several times in this thread, but I don't find in convincing at all. Guys will stop throwing haymakers, when they stop being enabled to throw haymakers "'cause sports". Many pro sports have a culture of excusing violence because "boys will be boys", the same way Hollywood has had a culture of sexually abusing actresses. Wrong is wrong, and I personally get pretty exhausted by the level of defensiveness and excuses saying otherwise. When a grown man punches another grown man as hard as he can in the face, with intent to seriously injure, at his job, he should lose his job for a while (at least). I couldn't care less if "everyone is doing it".

[byennie]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

The current cold civil war that exists in America encourages us to declare ourselves either to head in the direction of a more thoughtful/ less impulsive, gentler society, or one that accepts violent impulses as normal human behavior  - a natural part of living in a society of humans.   I don’t favor lifetime punishments for a lapse of control, but when the action was as dangerous/intimidating as DG’s I do think the message isn’t ‘boys will be boys’. He’s a grown man. Men (adults) who get frustrated don’t throw haymakers and if they do it isn’t  ok. Calling that view out as fake morality is a proclamation that one’s own view is the only legitimate view.  This type of marginalization of others’ perspective is a recipe for sustained conflict.


DG was not even in the throes of competitive battle.  He calmly (seemingly) stalked and attacked. Had he swung at a coach, a reporter - or any non-player for that matter - there would be no ‘just shake hands’ argument.

Well said. I for one am not calling for Draymond to be exiled from society for life... but "fake morality" my (rear end). Ironic to me is how much the same groups seemingly are obsessed with personal responsibility at all costs and in every instance... until a frustrated man assaults another. That's the time to forgive!

[byennie]

If Draymond doesn’t serve a severe suspension and possible criminal charges then the team/league is protecting the on-court products over their supposed morals— full stop.

It is not morals. It is PR.

---------------------------------------------------

Rambling on ...


So much of this nonsense is fake morality as a form of virtue signaling. Showing how good of a person you are by how willing you to severely punish whatever offense occured. The larger the punishment the more moral a human being you are. The better the human being you are.

Whether that is the one doing the punishing (team owners, league front office) or folks calling for more severe punishments (fans on social media).


"I prove how good of a person I am by showing everyone how severe a punishment I'd give this other person" and the punishments just keep escalating and escalating ... to the point they are no longer connected the original offense / crime. It is not about the offense. It is about the virtue signalling of morality for the punishers and the mob foaming at the mouth calling for more punishment.

2. It's a weird presumption to assume that the people who have a problem with this are people who've never been in locker rooms. I'm sure many of us have played more inherently violent sports than basketball, and behaving like Draymond would have gotten you thrown off the team, 100%. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that anyone who says that throwing hooks like this is a regular thing either never played or played on some massively toxic teams.

Indeed. Many defenders take this as some sort of manliness test. You don't like fist fights? Well you must never have been in the trenches with real men.

Shockingly, some of us have been there, we just always thought the idiots fighting on a basketball court were idiots...

[Moranis]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

except fights happen among teammates in team sports all of the time. In NFL training camp there are physical fights every single off season for every single team. This one may be a bit worse than most, but it happens all of the time.  It is just a different workplace than the normal one.

For example, here is a brawl from August where haymakers were thrown

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/video-shows-major-fight-at-giants-training-camp-that-involves-multiple-players-and-even-an-assistant-coach/

The "it happens all the time" argument has been offered several times in this thread, but I don't find in convincing at all. Guys will stop throwing haymakers, when they stop being enabled to throw haymakers "'cause sports". Many pro sports have a culture of excusing violence because "boys will be boys", the same way Hollywood has had a culture of sexually abusing actresses. Wrong is wrong, and I personally get pretty exhausted by the level of defensiveness and excuses saying otherwise. When a grown man punches another grown man as hard as he can in the face, with intent to seriously injure, at his job, he should lose his job for a while (at least). I couldn't care less if "everyone is doing it".

I was disagreeing with your comparison to the rest of professional life.  it isn't the same thing and has never been the same thing.  Just like the things discussed in a locker room could never be discussed in an office.  Sports are just a different animal.  Now I'd agree athletes shouldn't be assaulting anyone but I don't really think it is a big deal in the context of sports.

[Kernewek]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

except fights happen among teammates in team sports all of the time. In NFL training camp there are physical fights every single off season for every single team. This one may be a bit worse than most, but it happens all of the time.  It is just a different workplace than the normal one.

For example, here is a brawl from August where haymakers were thrown

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/video-shows-major-fight-at-giants-training-camp-that-involves-multiple-players-and-even-an-assistant-coach/

The "it happens all the time" argument has been offered several times in this thread, but I don't find in convincing at all. Guys will stop throwing haymakers, when they stop being enabled to throw haymakers "'cause sports". Many pro sports have a culture of excusing violence because "boys will be boys", the same way Hollywood has had a culture of sexually abusing actresses. Wrong is wrong, and I personally get pretty exhausted by the level of defensiveness and excuses saying otherwise. When a grown man punches another grown man as hard as he can in the face, with intent to seriously injure, at his job, he should lose his job for a while (at least). I couldn't care less if "everyone is doing it".

I was disagreeing with your comparison to the rest of professional life.  it isn't the same thing and has never been the same thing.  Just like the things discussed in a locker room could never be discussed in an office.  Sports are just a different animal.  Now I'd agree athletes shouldn't be assaulting anyone but I don't really think it is a big deal in the context of sports.

In a vacuum maybe you'd have more of a case but the 'close ranks' mentality around all professional sports leagues continues to lead to terrible, self-inflicted injuries to the various leagues' credibility.

Not to mention that it makes it harder for teams doing the right thing (like the Celtics with Udoka) when they are put at a clear disadvantage by doing so. After all, sexual misconduct is certainly not a big deal in the context of sports, right? Just ask Kobe.

We all know that Draymond-Gate is just Ray Rice 2.0, where the punishment is only going to occur because the video leaked, but the fact that behaviours have been allowed to pass without comment does not mean they should continue to pass without comment.

[celticsclay]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

except fights happen among teammates in team sports all of the time. In NFL training camp there are physical fights every single off season for every single team. This one may be a bit worse than most, but it happens all of the time.  It is just a different workplace than the normal one.

For example, here is a brawl from August where haymakers were thrown

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/video-shows-major-fight-at-giants-training-camp-that-involves-multiple-players-and-even-an-assistant-coach/

The "it happens all the time" argument has been offered several times in this thread, but I don't find in convincing at all. Guys will stop throwing haymakers, when they stop being enabled to throw haymakers "'cause sports". Many pro sports have a culture of excusing violence because "boys will be boys", the same way Hollywood has had a culture of sexually abusing actresses. Wrong is wrong, and I personally get pretty exhausted by the level of defensiveness and excuses saying otherwise. When a grown man punches another grown man as hard as he can in the face, with intent to seriously injure, at his job, he should lose his job for a while (at least). I couldn't care less if "everyone is doing it".

I was disagreeing with your comparison to the rest of professional life.  it isn't the same thing and has never been the same thing.  Just like the things discussed in a locker room could never be discussed in an office.  Sports are just a different animal.  Now I'd agree athletes shouldn't be assaulting anyone but I don't really think it is a big deal in the context of sports.

In a vacuum maybe you'd have more of a case but the 'close ranks' mentality around all professional sports leagues continues to lead to terrible, self-inflicted injuries to the various leagues' credibility.

Not to mention that it makes it harder for teams doing the right thing (like the Celtics with Udoka) when they are put at a clear disadvantage by doing so. After all, sexual misconduct is certainly not a big deal in the context of sports, right? Just ask Kobe.

We all know that Draymond-Gate is just Ray Rice 2.0, where the punishment is only going to occur because the video leaked, but the fact that behaviours have been allowed to pass without comment does not mean they should continue to pass without comment.

Players don’t assault each other all the time with haymakers to the face. When was the last time tmz realized footage of a player connecting with another teammates face and knocking him out during a practice? I am pretty sure there hasn’t been one with our Celtics to this degree in 30 years.  I honestly can’t remember with any team since mirotic. Its an incredibly bad take to say this happens all the time (and inaccurate). But we shouldn’t be surprised. #contrariantakesgonebad

[moiso]

If the video showed Draymond calling Poole a name that everyone is sensitive about nowadays, everyone would be more up in arms than they are for the haymaker to the face.  It seems a little out of whack.