I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player. I acknowledge LeBron is a great player. But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd. LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6. Jordan never lost one.
LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did. If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine. He has quit under less pressure. The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.
If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much. Space Jam, etc.
The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw
It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it. Steph still has it. Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.
Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6. Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals. And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals
LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier). 7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA).
Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced
SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro
So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league). I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team. Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.
The 90's was watered down crap for most of it. The teams just weren't very good. The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion). Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history. I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron. And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).
Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6). In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs. Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons. They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after). Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan).
Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history. His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league. He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend. He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate. A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team. He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan).
Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons. I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games. He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense. He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY. Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him). Absolutely incredible career and skill set.
All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach. I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series. The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title. That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach. He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals. Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible. Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks. He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem). He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team). He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes).
For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3. I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years. Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA. The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point. Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice. If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).
Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.
You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out). There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history. It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade. I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's. They are mostly terrible. The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals. That team is awful. You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team. I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs. You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF. The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.
Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html
Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also so bad. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. This is bad even for you….
I simmed the 93 Knicks and 12 Sixers at whatifsports.com - with the Sixers at home, they won 7 of the 10 matchups. With the Knicks home, they split 5-5. So 20 matchups and the Sixers won 12 to the Knicks 8.
The Knicks, Pacers, and a whole bunch of other teams from the 90's that were good teams at the time, just don't hold up historically. It was a horribly weak decade. The Bulls were a great team though, which tends to happen when you have the best player in the sport and another top 5 player in his prime that compliments the best player well. Those teams no matter the era win and win a lot. And Pippen was absolutely a top 5 guy for at least a lot of those seasons (and was no worse than top 10 from 91 on).
I just played nba2k with my Nephew and was discussing our conversation. He said calling a team with injured brand, spencer hawes tony battie, Jodie Meeks iggy and baby jrue better than the 94 Knicks a “woeful understanding of nba history.” I also know there is no way you actually believe this so please just stop.
I just played the '86 Celtics against the '22 Sixers on whatifsports.com, and Philly won 118-116. Andre Drummond was the player of the game with 13 points and 18 rebounds. Larry Bird had 15 points and shot 6 of 17.
I then decided to never go to whatifsports.com again.
Yeah it’s some pretty poor technology and simulation. I guess a Hail Mary to throw when you are on a losing argument. Honestly I would guess 2nba 2k would be more realistic. And while thr 94 Knicks are on there the 2012 76ers team did not make the cut (at least in the version I have. I mean this is really one of the more ridiculous arguments I can recall being involved in. Those Riley coaches Knicks teams were extremely gritty and well coached and really took advantage of the style of play allowed in that era. Oakley, mason, starks were all very legit players. Charles Oakley actually made the all star team that year and made several all defensive teams. Mason later made an all star team and several all defensive teams. Starks also made one all star game (that year) and also made an all defensive second team. Ewing was still in his prime and obviously a hall of gamer. They also had one of the greatest coaches ever in Riley. Comparing them to a second year jrue holiday, Elton brand with blown knees averaging 11 points and an elite role player in iggy (to say nothing of Meeks and hawes being other starters) really shows a fundamental lack of basketball knowledge if you are trying to call the 76ers a better team. But I think most people highly doubt Moranis himself believes this and got pretty lazy in his comparison not realizing where brand and holiday were in their careers.
I never say anything I don't believe, but you got these years all messed up (which caused me to get my sim year wrong). It was the 11 Sixers (not the 12 ones), Brand played 81 games and averaged 15/8. Iggy was basically 14/6/6 (and 2nd Team Defense). You also have the 94 Knicks, and not the 93 Knicks that won 60 games. That year, Oakley was a 7/8.5 guy that was no where near an all star team and Starks came off the bench half the time because Tony Campbell needed to start ahead of him.
Obviously Ewing is the best player on either team, but the Sixers had significantly more depth. They had Iggy in his prime (he was 2nd Team Defense that year), Holiday as a rookie though still 14/4/6.5, Brand at 15/8 (still just 31 and played 81 games), Thad Young, Evan Turner, Lou Williams, Spencer Hawes, Jodie Meeks, Andres Nocioni, Marreese Speights, and Tony Battie (who was old, but did play in all 5 games the Sixers played against the Heat).
The Knicks after Ewing were a hodge podge of role players at various stages of their career, but of lesser talent than that of the Sixers. Starks was an inefficient gunner who couldn't play defense (there is a reason Tony Campbell was starting some games over him that season). They had an enforcer in Oakley who did nothing offensively. Rivers was on the tail end as was Blackman. Greg Anthony is just bad. Charles Smith basically a worse defending Thad Young. Mason was fine coming off the bench in his 4th year (though his first two he played just 24 games combined).
So it would really come down to whether or not you thought Ewing could carry the lesser supporting cast, and I just don't think he could because he never could. Ewing is a well deserved HOFer, but he was never a top 5 guy. So he was never a guy that a team could just ride to victory. He just wasn't good enough and his supporting cast was awful. So yeah, I absolutely believe it is arguable that the 11 Sixers could have beaten the 93 Knicks. It is far from a slam dunk because the Knicks just don't measure up to other truly great teams (which you'd expect a 60 win team to be).
And that Sixers team the very next season beat the 62 win pace Bulls that even without Rose (he played game 1) still had Deng, Boozer, Rip, Taj, Noah, Korver, Asik, Watson, Brewer, and a very young Butler in the 1st round that year. And then in the next round pushed the Celtics to 7 games. You know that same Celtics team that took the Heat to 7 games.
BTW, if you ranked the players on the 93 Knicks and 11 Sixers I suspect the top 4 would be: Ewing, Brand, Iggy, Jrue. I'd probably take Lou Williams at 5. And before you go all crazy about Starks here are Williams and Starks per 36 for those season
Starks - 20.3 p, 5.9 a, 3.0 r, 1.3 s, 0.2 b, 2.5 t - 46.9 2PT, 32.1 3PT, 79.5 FT
Williams - 21.1 p, 5.2 a, 3.1 r, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t - 43.4 2PT, 34.8 3PT, 82.3 FT
Williams obviously played a lot less minutes, but he was actually better than Starks when they were on the floor. But you see that is the point I've been making. The Knicks just weren't a very good team outside of Ewing.
