Russell Westbrooks fall

[Who]

Westbrook might be out of the league soon unless he gets out of the denial he is quite obviously in.  His interview yesterday just smells of someone that has no idea what his role should be.

It feels a lot like what happened with Carmelo. This Westbrook in LAL year feels like Melo's OKC year. Melo got one more year on small money in Houston before being pushed out.

I reckon Westbrook gets at least one more year after his big contract ends to show he can be a useful player on an MLE type contract as a role player on a winning team. If he fails and it sure looks like he will fail, more teams will avoid him. I wonder if that will be enough to push him out of the league or if teams will still offer him a minimum contract & a backup PG role. Give him one last chance before giving him the final push out of the league.

So 2-3 years. Maybe 1-2 years if Westbrook takes a buyout on his deal and signs for the MLE (or less if a late buyout) next summer.

[Vermont Green]

Westbrook put up 18.5 pts, 7.4 rebs, 7.1 assists this past season.  Now granted, he took 15.8 shots per game to get those points (26.4% usage).  Of course at $40+ million you probably expect more and Westbrook has always has a way of racking up stats without helping to win but I think Westbrook continues to get kind of a bad rap.  Part of the reason he gets this bad rap is due to how he conducts himself, the contract, the whole bit, but someone should be able to figure out how to deploy Westbrook so that he actually helps a team win.

LAL will get a new coach.  Maybe that will be a chance for someone to come in, a "new sheriff in town" kind of thing, and get this team figured out.  Westbrook, LeBron, and Davis is collectively a lot of talent.  They need to listen to the coach though, not the other way around.  Getting rid of Westbrook but still not allowing yourself to be coached probably is not going to solve the problem.

[Moranis]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

[Walker Wiggle]

Westbrook put up 18.5 pts, 7.4 rebs, 7.1 assists this past season.  Now granted, he took 15.8 shots per game to get those points (26.4% usage).  Of course at $40+ million you probably expect more and Westbrook has always has a way of racking up stats without helping to win but I think Westbrook continues to get kind of a bad rap.  Part of the reason he gets this bad rap is due to how he conducts himself, the contract, the whole bit, but someone should be able to figure out how to deploy Westbrook so that he actually helps a team win.

LAL will get a new coach.  Maybe that will be a chance for someone to come in, a "new sheriff in town" kind of thing, and get this team figured out.  Westbrook, LeBron, and Davis is collectively a lot of talent.

TThe problem is not coaching. The problem is the players. Westbrook has decent counting stats but is horribly inefficient. Lebron is great but hasn’t played defense in years, and is now old. AD is great too but is always injured and on the decline. Their role players are guys still riding the on their reputations for things they did years ago. Also, they have virtually nothing to trade in a bid to get better. I see no way this team competes for a title next year, no matter who their coach is.

[Vermont Green]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

[Goldstar88]

Westbrook is empty calories and I’m not sure there is a team in the NBA that he can help at this point. He’s incredibly inefficient, his defense isn’t great and he’s lost a step. I’d rather have John Wall.

[Vermont Green]

Westbrook put up 18.5 pts, 7.4 rebs, 7.1 assists this past season.  Now granted, he took 15.8 shots per game to get those points (26.4% usage).  Of course at $40+ million you probably expect more and Westbrook has always has a way of racking up stats without helping to win but I think Westbrook continues to get kind of a bad rap.  Part of the reason he gets this bad rap is due to how he conducts himself, the contract, the whole bit, but someone should be able to figure out how to deploy Westbrook so that he actually helps a team win.

LAL will get a new coach.  Maybe that will be a chance for someone to come in, a "new sheriff in town" kind of thing, and get this team figured out.  Westbrook, LeBron, and Davis is collectively a lot of talent.

TThe problem is not coaching. The problem is the players. Westbrook has decent counting stats but is horribly inefficient. Lebron is great but hasn’t played defense in years, and is now old. AD is great too but is always injured and on the decline. Their role players are guys still riding the on their reputations for things they did years ago. Also, they have virtually nothing to trade in a bid to get better. I see no way this team competes for a title next year, no matter who their coach is.

Similar to my reply to Moranis, the team missed the playoffs this year.  You are saying the team won't compete for a title.  There is quite a bit in between.  And to me it is not so much how good the coach is, rather what is important is how the 3 key players respond to the coach.  If LeBron is going to continue to coast on defense, if Westbrook is not going to let a coach adjust his game to better complement LeBron and Davis, then no, the coach isn't going to make much difference.

The team depth is another issue, beyond anything a coach can fix.  But the core big 3 on this team, if healthy and if they allow themselves to be coached into a team, can compete for a title.  Those are two big "ifs" of course and they probably won't contend for title.

Think of it this way in terms of Westbrook.  What would be better, keep the same coach that no one listens to but dump Westbrook thinking he is the problem or keep Westbrook but bring in a coach that the team will listen to.  I think keeping Westbrook gets you closer to title contention than dumping him.  Now granted, that may be a classic lesser of two evils but it is what is on the table for the Lakers right now.

[Moranis]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high. 

[Vermont Green]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has.  Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff.  I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

[Big333223]

Pleasure isn't the right word but I do feel validated in my opinion of Westbrook.

I think the "downfall" narrative is fascinating. His numbers are still terrific. 19-7-7, he played 78 games, and his eFG% is almost identical to what it was last season and the last 3 years he was in OKC. Now all the people who gave him an MVP award for putting up empty stats are saying he's lost a step but I'm waiting for anyone to acknowledge (who didn't already know this before) that his numbers are fraudulent and were never indicative of a truly valuable player.

It's a great example of people being blinded by the talent. I think about this a lot regarding Pierce. Vince Carter was a much more talented basketball player than Pierce but Pierce was definitely the better player. Westbrook was one of the most talented basketball players ever but he's always been too selfish to do what is needed to win.

[Moranis]

Pleasure isn't the right word but I do feel validated in my opinion of Westbrook.

I think the "downfall" narrative is fascinating. His numbers are still terrific. 19-7-7, he played 78 games, and his eFG% is almost identical to what it was last season and the last 3 years he was in OKC. Now all the people who gave him an MVP award for putting up empty stats are saying he's lost a step but I'm waiting for anyone to acknowledge (who didn't already know this before) that his numbers are fraudulent and were never indicative of a truly valuable player.

It's a great example of people being blinded by the talent. I think about this a lot regarding Pierce. Vince Carter was a much more talented basketball player than Pierce but Pierce was definitely the better player. Westbrook was one of the most talented basketball players ever but he's always been too selfish to do what is needed to win.

except the year he won the MVP his on/off per 100 possessions was +12.4, this year he was -3.6.  His impact to winning has clearly gone down as he has aged.

[Vermont Green]

If you look at the 3-man line up of Westbrook, James, Davis, that group had a Net Rating of -3.5 in 21 games.  If you look just Davis and James, they were -2.5 in 22 games.  As far as individual net ratings:

Westbrook      -4.0
LeBron           -2.5
Davis             -3.0

I know Westbrook has issues and had no where near a $40M season but I think many are putting too much of this on him.  I am not disagreeing that Westbrook has his issues but he is not the problem with the Lakers.  If they think just dumping him is going to solve their problems, I think they are very mistaken.

If I was them, I would keep Westbrook, see how it goes with the new coach, and blow it up next season at the trade deadline or later if it comes to that.  Do some group therapy with the big 3.  Maybe some team building rock climbing or something.  If you are going to say the team was worse with Westbrook so they will be better without him, I guess they need to dump LeBron and Davis too.

[Big333223]

Pleasure isn't the right word but I do feel validated in my opinion of Westbrook.

I think the "downfall" narrative is fascinating. His numbers are still terrific. 19-7-7, he played 78 games, and his eFG% is almost identical to what it was last season and the last 3 years he was in OKC. Now all the people who gave him an MVP award for putting up empty stats are saying he's lost a step but I'm waiting for anyone to acknowledge (who didn't already know this before) that his numbers are fraudulent and were never indicative of a truly valuable player.

It's a great example of people being blinded by the talent. I think about this a lot regarding Pierce. Vince Carter was a much more talented basketball player than Pierce but Pierce was definitely the better player. Westbrook was one of the most talented basketball players ever but he's always been too selfish to do what is needed to win.

except the year he won the MVP his on/off per 100 possessions was +12.4, this year he was -3.6.  His impact to winning has clearly gone down as he has aged.

My question is: why is that? Is there anything significantly different about the way he's playing now or is it that his style was always incompatible with winning but before he had a team around him that catered to his desires and so masked his deficiencies?

I think it's the second one.

[Who]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Pleasure isn't the right word but I do feel validated in my opinion of Westbrook.

I think the "downfall" narrative is fascinating. His numbers are still terrific. 19-7-7, he played 78 games, and his eFG% is almost identical to what it was last season and the last 3 years he was in OKC. Now all the people who gave him an MVP award for putting up empty stats are saying he's lost a step but I'm waiting for anyone to acknowledge (who didn't already know this before) that his numbers are fraudulent and were never indicative of a truly valuable player.

It's a great example of people being blinded by the talent. I think about this a lot regarding Pierce. Vince Carter was a much more talented basketball player than Pierce but Pierce was definitely the better player. Westbrook was one of the most talented basketball players ever but he's always been too selfish to do what is needed to win.

Not disagreeing, but just funny that (in addition to Westbrook's own issues):

AD won't play center

Lebron being lebron just comes off as an extremely selfish person to me. I'm sure he's made a good amount, at least some, sacrifices to win, given the nba is so tough. And I am of course super biased against him. But man this year for lebron was no good.