Russell Westbrooks fall

[greg683x]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

[Moranis]

Pleasure isn't the right word but I do feel validated in my opinion of Westbrook.

I think the "downfall" narrative is fascinating. His numbers are still terrific. 19-7-7, he played 78 games, and his eFG% is almost identical to what it was last season and the last 3 years he was in OKC. Now all the people who gave him an MVP award for putting up empty stats are saying he's lost a step but I'm waiting for anyone to acknowledge (who didn't already know this before) that his numbers are fraudulent and were never indicative of a truly valuable player.

It's a great example of people being blinded by the talent. I think about this a lot regarding Pierce. Vince Carter was a much more talented basketball player than Pierce but Pierce was definitely the better player. Westbrook was one of the most talented basketball players ever but he's always been too selfish to do what is needed to win.

except the year he won the MVP his on/off per 100 possessions was +12.4, this year he was -3.6.  His impact to winning has clearly gone down as he has aged.

My question is: why is that? Is there anything significantly different about the way he's playing now or is it that his style was always incompatible with winning but before he had a team around him that catered to his desires and so masked his deficiencies?

I think it's the second one.

He is worse basically everywhere across the board.  As Who noted his TS% is down, but everything else is down also.  Significantly lower TRB%, AST%, and even a worse TOV%.  He went from WS of 13.1 in MVP season to 1.7 this year.  Westbrook quite simply got old and lost a step and so much of his game style of play is based on athleticism it makes a huge difference. 

Also, I mentioned this earlier, but this was Westbrook's 14th season and finished the year with 1021 games played.  That is more games than many all time greats.  Magic, for example, played just 906 games, Bird was even less at 896.   That was more games than Jordan played in Chicago, and we all saw what Washington Jordan looked like.  We all remember Wilt's 50/25 season, but his last year in the league he scored 13.2 ppg and he finished 1045 games.  Russell finished with 963 games and while the C's were still winning, Russell was down to just 9.9 ppg (by far the lowest of his career). 

We've been spoiled recently with just how good Lebron has remained (and Durant to a lesser extent) that we totally forget most guys fall off a cliff and are out of the league around where Westbrook is at from a mileage standpoint.  And for a smaller guard who made his career because he was one of the greatest athletes in league history it was only a matter of time before the wheels fell off.  Now sure, if Westbrook would take on a pure distributor bench role, I think he'd be able to build a nice end to his career, but I don't think Westbrook is going to be able to do that, and he doesn't have the skill set of the typical veteran bench player.  This isn't Vince Carter we are talking about or even Carmelo Anthony.  Westbrook is a terrible shooter and a bad defender, that is what you need to transition from star to the bench, and that isn't Westbrook.

[pokeKingCurtis]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

Oh wow, forgot about that. Tp for taking me back 15 years

I don't even mind at this point. Find it kind of cool, in fact, that they are wired this way

Same reason I'm cool with Durant. He loves basketball, and isn't afraid to be super petty about it.

[Kernewek]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

Once he lost a step AI really didn't have a place in the league. It's been kind of forgotten nowadays because guys are sticking around for so long, but most NBA players age like milk, historically. His last ok season was in Denver in '07-'08, the next year he dropped off a cliff.

For what it's worth, AI lasted 14 seasons in the NBA, and this was Westbrook's 14th season.

[perks-a-beast]

I used to like Westbrook. Then he went to the Lakers and sabotaged the team. Now I love him.

[pokeKingCurtis]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

Once he lost a step AI really didn't have a place in the league. It's been kind of forgotten nowadays because guys are sticking around for so long, but most NBA players age like milk, historically. His last ok season was in Denver in '07-'08, the next year he dropped off a cliff.

For what it's worth, AI lasted 14 seasons in the NBA, and this was Westbrook's 14th season.

AI, despite being extremely talented and athletic, was also 5'10 in shoes

Not disagreeing but I'm interested to see if Westbrook adapts his game (there's of course a good possibility he has lost "it"). Love seeing players adapt and develop - the medical advances and whatnot are great to see too from that standpoint

[Goldstar88]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

Once he lost a step AI really didn't have a place in the league. It's been kind of forgotten nowadays because guys are sticking around for so long, but most NBA players age like milk, historically. His last ok season was in Denver in '07-'08, the next year he dropped off a cliff.

For what it's worth, AI lasted 14 seasons in the NBA, and this was Westbrook's 14th season.

Least AI was able to figure out late in his career how to play on another team in Denver and fit in. Nuggets made the playoffs two years in a row with Iverson and they ran into Shaq/Kobe and Duncan/Robinson. Westbrook refuses or is unable to figure out how to change his playing style so that it actually helps his team win games.

[pokeKingCurtis]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

Once he lost a step AI really didn't have a place in the league. It's been kind of forgotten nowadays because guys are sticking around for so long, but most NBA players age like milk, historically. His last ok season was in Denver in '07-'08, the next year he dropped off a cliff.

For what it's worth, AI lasted 14 seasons in the NBA, and this was Westbrook's 14th season.

Least AI was able to figure out late in his career how to play on another team in Denver and fit in. Nuggets made the playoffs two years in a row with AI and they ran into Shaq/Kobe and Duncan/Robinson. Westbrook refuses or is unable to figure out how to change his playing style in a way that helps his team.

AI being able to shoot reliably and still be quick also helps. Plays like the old dudes at my local park. Mid range shots are hella annoying to defend

Westbrook learning to finish strong like Deron Williams will help. Doesn't help that he has to transition from being top banana to being next to the biggest banana in the NBA right now in lebron

[moiso]

Westbrook thinks Frank Vogel was responsible for his difficult season.  Still thinks he's this amazing player.  No accountability from Westbrook or really anyone else on that team.

[Kernewek]

The guys on First Things First were comparing him to Iverson and that he was headed down that path.  You know an inefficient ball dominant guard that needed a team built around him, who was out of the league very quickly because he couldn't adjust when his physical tools started failing him.  Iverson went from 42 mpg 26 ppg in 07-08 to not even playing in 10-11 after bouncing around 4 teams in his last 2 seasons.  Carmelo has always had the skills to be a role player, I'm not sure Westbrook truly does.  Obviously he is an excellent rebounder and passer, but can that type of player be a bench role player if they can't shoot or defend at even average levels.  Be interesting to see if he accepts that has to be role and if he can actually fit in that role.

There is quite a bit between being the star that the team is built around to being a role player that comes off the bench.  I think what Westbrook needs to do is figure out how to be a good complimentary #2 or #3 instead of a #1.  If you can get 18 pts, 7.5 rebs and 7 assists out of your third "star", that is fine, really good actually.

But Westbrook has never shown the skills that would make him a great complimentary piece because he is (1) a poor shooter; (2) a poor defender; and (3) a poor decision maker.  This year the Lakers were 3.6 points per 100 possessions WORSE when Westbrook was in the game.  His shooting percentages from everywhere were bad.  He doesn't defend.  And his TOV% of 17.3 was astronomically high.

Yeah, the main skill issue is shooting efficiency but I think the bigger issue is mindset.  If he took say 12 shots instead of 16, that alone may improve his efficiency.  He has plenty of athletic ability to play defense, he just has to make up his mind to do it.  I think there is plenty of skill there for Westbrook to evolve his game and find a way to play with LeBron and Davis or to contribute on some other team is a more complementary role.  The question is will he recognize this, listen to a coach, and actually try to do it.  He hasn't so far in his career so maybe not but my point is that this is more about mindset than skill.

There was a comparison to Iverson earlier but Iverson did not have nearly size and strength that Westbrook has. Iverson just plain broke down, he was completely physically beaten down, when he fell off the cliff. I don't see Westbrook as being at that point physically.  Westbrook could still do this if he simply decides he is willing face the reality and adjust his game.

Is that what happened though?  Iverson got older and started to decline, but his body didn’t end his career.  He was flawed but still an effective player at his end, It was his ridiculous ego and refusal to come off the bench which turned teams off.  I could be remembering things wrong but that’s how I thought it went down.

If that is the case, it’s a good comparison bc  I could definitely see Westbrook and his equally oversized ego have a similar fate.

Once he lost a step AI really didn't have a place in the league. It's been kind of forgotten nowadays because guys are sticking around for so long, but most NBA players age like milk, historically. His last ok season was in Denver in '07-'08, the next year he dropped off a cliff.

For what it's worth, AI lasted 14 seasons in the NBA, and this was Westbrook's 14th season.

Least AI was able to figure out late in his career how to play on another team in Denver and fit in. Nuggets made the playoffs two years in a row with Iverson and they ran into Shaq/Kobe and Duncan/Robinson. Westbrook refuses or is unable to figure out how to change his playing style so that it actually helps his team win games.

Oh for sure, AI is probably my favourite basketball player of the post-Jordan 00's. I don't want to make it sound like I'm hating on him.

The Westbrook stuff has been rough to watch this season, but I've very much enjoyed watching him play over the years. If he'd jumped ship to the Warriors instead of KD they're still odds on favourites to win a chip (very hypothetical on my end) and the whole narrative is different (not very hypothetical).

[Big333223]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

I kind of hate TS% and this is a nice illustration of why.

Westbrook's eFG% in '17 and '22 was an identical .476. The drop in TS% is entirely due to his FT shooting falling off a cliff. in '17 he took more than 10 a game and made 85% of them, this past year he took 5.1 FT's and made only 67%.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is just as good as he was, but I do think what we're seeing is less about a decline in ability and more about a selfish player trying to force his game into a situation it doesn't fit. I imagine there's a version of this season where Westbrook listened to Vogel, played his role, averaged something like 16-4-4, efficiently, and the Lakers are the 6th seed.

Had that happened, I don't think we'd be hearing as much about Westbrook's decline. 

[Moranis]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

I kind of hate TS% and this is a nice illustration of why.

Westbrook's eFG% in '17 and '22 was an identical .476. The drop in TS% is entirely due to his FT shooting falling off a cliff. in '17 he took more than 10 a game and made 85% of them, this past year he took 5.1 FT's and made only 67%.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is just as good as he was, but I do think what we're seeing is less about a decline in ability and more about a selfish player trying to force his game into a situation it doesn't fit. I imagine there's a version of this season where Westbrook listened to Vogel, played his role, averaged something like 16-4-4, efficiently, and the Lakers are the 6th seed.

Had that happened, I don't think we'd be hearing as much about Westbrook's decline.

but the high foul shot attempts at the excellent percentage is a large part of what made Westbrook as good as he was because he has never been a great shooter.

[gouki88]

His free throw shooting % drop-off is insane. Has anyone seen anything like it before? He fell basically 20% in two seasons, while still shooting a fair amount of them.

Feeling very vindicated for all my Westbrook bashing the past few seasons. His mindset simply prevents him from contributing to wins

[slamtheking]

I think what still amazes me to this day is that of the 4 top players OKC acquired - Durant, Harden, Ibaka and Westbrook - the one the kept the longest was the one that had the worst impact on winning

[Big333223]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

I kind of hate TS% and this is a nice illustration of why.

Westbrook's eFG% in '17 and '22 was an identical .476. The drop in TS% is entirely due to his FT shooting falling off a cliff. in '17 he took more than 10 a game and made 85% of them, this past year he took 5.1 FT's and made only 67%.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is just as good as he was, but I do think what we're seeing is less about a decline in ability and more about a selfish player trying to force his game into a situation it doesn't fit. I imagine there's a version of this season where Westbrook listened to Vogel, played his role, averaged something like 16-4-4, efficiently, and the Lakers are the 6th seed.

Had that happened, I don't think we'd be hearing as much about Westbrook's decline.

but the high foul shot attempts at the excellent percentage is a large part of what made Westbrook as good as he was because he has never been a great shooter.

Absolutely. What I'm saying is I don't think the drop-off is due as much to him declining in ability as it is in him refusing to adjust his game (although I do agree he has declined some).

His free throw shooting % drop-off is insane. Has anyone seen anything like it before? He fell basically 20% in two seasons, while still shooting a fair amount of them.

Yeah, his first 9 seasons in the NBA he averaged 82% at the line. The last two seasons he's shot 66%. Maybe I'm wrong about this but FT shooting doesn't feel like a thing that typically trails off once you hit 30.