Russell Westbrooks fall

[celticsclay]

Westbrook thinks Frank Vogel was responsible for his difficult season.  Still thinks he's this amazing player.  No accountability from Westbrook or really anyone else on that team.

That team is literally trying to throw around blame like a hot potato. Bout as toxic as we have seen.

[tenn_smoothie]

Taking great pleasure in the Lakers problems as a whole. Their claim of being the glamour franchise of the league where anyone would want to play has finally blown up in their face and the Westbrook deal is what has sealed their fate for the foreseeable future. They have painted themselves into a corner and have practically no options to fix this mess. And typical Lebron, when things become difficult on a current team, he starts hinting at looking elsewhere. What a fraud he is.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Taking great pleasure in the Lakers problems as a whole. Their claim of being the glamour franchise of the league where anyone would want to play has finally blown up in their face and the Westbrook deal is what has sealed their fate for the foreseeable future. They have painted themselves into a corner and have practically no options to fix this mess. And typical Lebron, when things become difficult on a current team, he starts hinting at looking elsewhere. What a fraud he is.

Too bad they'd just randomly bumble their way to another championship. Maybe Giannis goes there this time, given MIL has so much tied up in Jrue

Maybe the allure of LA finally fades...Dunno lol

[gouki88]

Taking great pleasure in the Lakers problems as a whole. Their claim of being the glamour franchise of the league where anyone would want to play has finally blown up in their face and the Westbrook deal is what has sealed their fate for the foreseeable future. They have painted themselves into a corner and have practically no options to fix this mess. And typical Lebron, when things become difficult on a current team, he starts hinting at looking elsewhere. What a fraud he is.

Too bad they'd just randomly bumble their way to another championship. Maybe Giannis goes there this time, given MIL has so much tied up in Jrue

Maybe the allure of LA finally fades...Dunno lol

Giannis is contracted until 2026 and currently plays for a much better team than the Lakers. Milwaukee even have one of his brothers on the team. No reason for him to go to LA, and he can't anytime soon.

[JSD]

The Lakers were the worst run franchise in the league after Kobe. Then "poof" they're contenders with multiple superstars. I always just assume things will go their way

[SHAQATTACK]

Lakers are a money cow for the NBA , TV etc .   They hire the best entertainers for their three ring circus .  Their basketball reminds me of dancing with e stars .   Junk . Westbrook actually fits right in   The problem is he is one too many stooges on a already pathetic cast of characters and will suffer the most criticism or blame . When it should land square on James , the Mgmt , and Crime Sports

[Vermont Green]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

I kind of hate TS% and this is a nice illustration of why.

Westbrook's eFG% in '17 and '22 was an identical .476. The drop in TS% is entirely due to his FT shooting falling off a cliff. in '17 he took more than 10 a game and made 85% of them, this past year he took 5.1 FT's and made only 67%.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is just as good as he was, but I do think what we're seeing is less about a decline in ability and more about a selfish player trying to force his game into a situation it doesn't fit. I imagine there's a version of this season where Westbrook listened to Vogel, played his role, averaged something like 16-4-4, efficiently, and the Lakers are the 6th seed.

Had that happened, I don't think we'd be hearing as much about Westbrook's decline.

This is exactly what I am trying to say.  Of course 33 year old Westbrook can't still do all the things that 29 year old Westbrook could do but people are saying things like he should accept a role as a bench player.  I don't see that when I watch Westbrook  He still has more general athleticism that most NBA players, even if it is less than what he once had.

The Lakers team was never a team.  it did not appear that anyone, Westbrook included, listened to the coach.  They all (Westbrook, James, Davis primarily) just went out there and did what they have always done and expected all the other players to adjust their games to them, like had always happened in the past.

And injuries were a factor too.  LeBron played only 56 games and Davis only 40 games.

I think back on the original LeBron Heat team; Wade, James, Bosh.  Now the Lakers are Westbrook, James, Davis.  Those 3 on the Heat all had to adjust their games.  That team listened to Riley and Spoelstra, at least for a while.  Who are the Lakers players listening to?

[Moranis]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

I kind of hate TS% and this is a nice illustration of why.

Westbrook's eFG% in '17 and '22 was an identical .476. The drop in TS% is entirely due to his FT shooting falling off a cliff. in '17 he took more than 10 a game and made 85% of them, this past year he took 5.1 FT's and made only 67%.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is just as good as he was, but I do think what we're seeing is less about a decline in ability and more about a selfish player trying to force his game into a situation it doesn't fit. I imagine there's a version of this season where Westbrook listened to Vogel, played his role, averaged something like 16-4-4, efficiently, and the Lakers are the 6th seed.

Had that happened, I don't think we'd be hearing as much about Westbrook's decline.

This is exactly what I am trying to say.  Of course 33 year old Westbrook can't still do all the things that 29 year old Westbrook could do but people are saying things like he should accept a role as a bench player.  I don't see that when I watch Westbrook  He still has more general athleticism that most NBA players, even if it is less than what he once had.

The Lakers team was never a team.  it did not appear that anyone, Westbrook included, listened to the coach.  They all (Westbrook, James, Davis primarily) just went out there and did what they have always done and expected all the other players to adjust their games to them, like had always happened in the past.

And injuries were a factor too.  LeBron played only 56 games and Davis only 40 games.

I think back on the original LeBron Heat team; Wade, James, Bosh.  Now the Lakers are Westbrook, James, Davis.  Those 3 on the Heat all had to adjust their games.  That team listened to Riley and Spoelstra, at least for a while.  Who are the Lakers players listening to?

The problem is, so much of what made Westbrook effective was his athleticism.  Him losing a step significantly has altered his effectiveness because he isn't an efficient scorer (and is a terrible shooter) and makes poor decisions.  In his athletic prime he could overcome that more because he was one of the greatest athletes in the sports history.  He isn't that any more so he can't really overcome his general lack of shooting skill and poor decision making. 

I do agree that Vogel wasn't the right coach for the Lakers and that injuries altered their outlook (when all 3 played they were above .500), but that doesn't change the fact that Westbrook is past his prime and doesn't have a skill set suited to age well.  He doesn't have a complimentary style of play.  He is most effective when he is "the" man, but he isn't good enough anymore to be the man.  There is a real chance he is out of the league after his contract is up because I'm not sure what team is going to sign him, even for the minimum.  I don't think any contender will.  I also don't think any young team will.  So he will basically have like 3 options and honestly I don't know why any team would sign him.  He just doesn't play winning basketball anymore.

[moiso]

Even worse for his future than his play is his clueless mindset.  All the blame is on Vogel and Westbrook says he was never given a fair chance to be who he could be.  He was given every opportunity and played the most minutes on the team.  He never lost his starting job.  The worst thing that happened to him was not getting crunch time minutes a few times.  But of course Westbrook makes himself out to be a big victim.

[Big333223]

Westbrook had a TS% of 55.4% in 2016-17 when he won the MVP which was around league average (55.2%). This year he had a TS% of 51.2% which was well below the league of 56.6% and is one of the worst marks in the league among starters.

That is a huge difference.

Being a league average scorer on high efficiency as well as a high volume playmaker that creates easier high percentage shots for less talented teammates has large offensive value especially on not-so-talented teams. That is what Westbrook did when he won the MVP.

This year Westbrook was near the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency among players who took 10 shot per game or scored 10ppg which made him one of the most damaging (self-inflicted harm on his own team) players in the league.

I kind of hate TS% and this is a nice illustration of why.

Westbrook's eFG% in '17 and '22 was an identical .476. The drop in TS% is entirely due to his FT shooting falling off a cliff. in '17 he took more than 10 a game and made 85% of them, this past year he took 5.1 FT's and made only 67%.

I'm not arguing that Westbrook is just as good as he was, but I do think what we're seeing is less about a decline in ability and more about a selfish player trying to force his game into a situation it doesn't fit. I imagine there's a version of this season where Westbrook listened to Vogel, played his role, averaged something like 16-4-4, efficiently, and the Lakers are the 6th seed.

Had that happened, I don't think we'd be hearing as much about Westbrook's decline.

This is exactly what I am trying to say.  Of course 33 year old Westbrook can't still do all the things that 29 year old Westbrook could do but people are saying things like he should accept a role as a bench player.  I don't see that when I watch Westbrook  He still has more general athleticism that most NBA players, even if it is less than what he once had.

The Lakers team was never a team.  it did not appear that anyone, Westbrook included, listened to the coach.  They all (Westbrook, James, Davis primarily) just went out there and did what they have always done and expected all the other players to adjust their games to them, like had always happened in the past.

And injuries were a factor too.  LeBron played only 56 games and Davis only 40 games.

I think back on the original LeBron Heat team; Wade, James, Bosh.  Now the Lakers are Westbrook, James, Davis.  Those 3 on the Heat all had to adjust their games.  That team listened to Riley and Spoelstra, at least for a while.  Who are the Lakers players listening to?

The problem is, so much of what made Westbrook effective was his athleticism.  Him losing a step significantly has altered his effectiveness because he isn't an efficient scorer (and is a terrible shooter) and makes poor decisions.  In his athletic prime he could overcome that more because he was one of the greatest athletes in the sports history.  He isn't that any more so he can't really overcome his general lack of shooting skill and poor decision making. 

I do agree that Vogel wasn't the right coach for the Lakers and that injuries altered their outlook (when all 3 played they were above .500), but that doesn't change the fact that Westbrook is past his prime and doesn't have a skill set suited to age well.  He doesn't have a complimentary style of play.  He is most effective when he is "the" man, but he isn't good enough anymore to be the man.  There is a real chance he is out of the league after his contract is up because I'm not sure what team is going to sign him, even for the minimum.  I don't think any contender will.  I also don't think any young team will.  So he will basically have like 3 options and honestly I don't know why any team would sign him.  He just doesn't play winning basketball anymore.

Was there a right coach for this group?

[Who]

Was there a right coach for this group?

Yes. The Lakers had to play a run and gun five out offense with Anthony Davis at the five. That was the only way Westbrook and LeBron could co-exist without destroying the floor spacing. They needed a coach who was comfortable coaching this type of system.

Even with such a coach, this is still not much of a team. Certainly not with AD playing only half the season and playing below par for a good chunk of those few games he did play. Maybe they get to .500, then again maybe not.

It is not like it is some magic bullet that would cure everything but it would have been better than it was. Vogel was a disaster for this team as he was in Orlando when he did not have a roster suited to his type of coaching. You give him a specific roster, he can do a good job for you. You give him anything else and your worst fears will be realized.

[Moranis]

Was there a right coach for this group?

Yes. The Lakers had to play a run and gun five out offense with Anthony Davis at the five. That was the only way Westbrook and LeBron could co-exist without destroying the floor spacing. They needed a coach who was comfortable coaching this type of system.

Even with such a coach, this is still not much of a team. Certainly not with AD playing only half the season and playing below par for a good chunk of those few games he did play. Maybe they get to .500, then again maybe not.

It is not like it is some magic bullet that would cure everything but it would have been better than it was. Vogel was a disaster for this team as he was in Orlando when he did not have a roster suited to his type of coaching. You give him a specific roster, he can do a good job for you. You give him anything else and your worst fears will be realized.

I think it is ironic that 2 of the most disappointing teams in recent memory were both Lakers team, but if they had swapped the coaches, I think both of them would have been a lot better.  D'Antoni would have had this iteration of the Lakers a lot better positioned than Vogel did and conversely had Vogel been coaching the Nash/Kobe/Gasol/Howard Lakers they also would have been a lot better.

[Big333223]

Was there a right coach for this group?

Yes. The Lakers had to play a run and gun five out offense with Anthony Davis at the five. That was the only way Westbrook and LeBron could co-exist without destroying the floor spacing. They needed a coach who was comfortable coaching this type of system.

Even with such a coach, this is still not much of a team. Certainly not with AD playing only half the season and playing below par for a good chunk of those few games he did play. Maybe they get to .500, then again maybe not.

It is not like it is some magic bullet that would cure everything but it would have been better than it was. Vogel was a disaster for this team as he was in Orlando when he did not have a roster suited to his type of coaching. You give him a specific roster, he can do a good job for you. You give him anything else and your worst fears will be realized.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a better system for this group but if AD refused to play center and James refused to play fast and the organization wouldn't give Vogel complete control I don't know what coach could've actually instituted that system.

[Quetzalcoatl]

My hot take is he's always been this bad