KAT - All-Star Game/Celtics

[Moranis]

It would take Brown + significant assets to acquire Towns.  Towns is better and has significantly more value than Brown.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

It would take Brown + significant assets to acquire Towns.  Towns is better and has significantly more value than Brown.

I just don't think this is true based off of all big trades from the last decade. I think you could argue that we don't have the non-quite-an-all-star-but-still-a-good-young-player piece to make a trade for KAT. I don't think Smart or White fits that. Williams might, but you'd need another guy to step forward as a solid prospect.

It's definitely true that sometimes an all-star is traded back for a player like KAT, but those seem like the exception not the rule.

[LilRip]

Acquiring KAT would be amazing. Having Brown as your 3rd best player makes this team a contender imo.

Actually, if it came down to it, I would still do the trade if it meant Brown+pick+filler for KAT+starting (non-allstar) level point guard in a multi-team trade. (A point guard like idk, Brunson? Rozier? Dinwiddie? Guys who have the talent to start but aren’t at the level of ‘fringe allstar snub’ the way Brown is)

So for example, we could have a line up of Rozier/Smart/Tatum/KAT/TL

or alternatively, xx/Brown/Tatum/KAT/xx

Both are great lineups imo with the first one being more defensively versatile and the second one being more top heavy, ala BKN.

This package seems quite favorable to the Celtics.

I mean, yeah, but the team giving up the best player in the deal rarely gets something of equal value. Now, I don’t know what the Hornets really want but I’ll use them as a hypothetical 3rd team in this scenario:

Timberwolves out: KAT,
Timberwolves in: Horford, Oubre, Grant, 3 first rounders

Celtics out: JB, Horford, Grant, 2 first rounders
Celtics in: Rozier, KAT

Hornets out: Rozier, Oubre, 1 first
Hornets in: JB, filler

Something like that. Hornets upgrade their starting 5 by having Lamelo-Brown-Hayward-Bridges. Timberwolves stock up. Celtics get their star and fully go in win-now mode with no more picks in the foreseeable. I didn’t run it in any trade machine because who knows who will be around or acquired in the offseason but that’s the gist of it (let’s say this happens in the following offseason, not this upcoming one).

Really, the key is having 3 teams in 3 different mind states. Someone wants to sell and restart because they’re not confident they can keep their incumbent star. Someone is looking to grow incrementally to build on another strong year around their foundation. Someone is looking to go all-in and mortgage their future for something now.

Will it happen? Well, that’s why GM’s always say that trades are always difficult, especially multi-team ones. If KAT is happy with the wolves, then this is probably a non-starter. If the Hornets view Rozier as foundational rather than a “what do we do with this guy?”, then they probably won’t bite. Something needs to change from the status quo to shake things up and make way for change.

[Moranis]

Acquiring KAT would be amazing. Having Brown as your 3rd best player makes this team a contender imo.

Actually, if it came down to it, I would still do the trade if it meant Brown+pick+filler for KAT+starting (non-allstar) level point guard in a multi-team trade. (A point guard like idk, Brunson? Rozier? Dinwiddie? Guys who have the talent to start but aren’t at the level of ‘fringe allstar snub’ the way Brown is)

So for example, we could have a line up of Rozier/Smart/Tatum/KAT/TL

or alternatively, xx/Brown/Tatum/KAT/xx

Both are great lineups imo with the first one being more defensively versatile and the second one being more top heavy, ala BKN.

This package seems quite favorable to the Celtics.

I mean, yeah, but the team giving up the best player in the deal rarely gets something of equal value. Now, I don’t know what the Hornets really want but I’ll use them as a hypothetical 3rd team in this scenario:

Timberwolves out: KAT,
Timberwolves in: Horford, Oubre, Grant, 3 first rounders

Celtics out: JB, Horford, Grant, 2 first rounders
Celtics in: Rozier, KAT

Hornets out: Rozier, Oubre, 1 first
Hornets in: JB, filler

Something like that. Hornets upgrade their starting 5 by having Lamelo-Brown-Hayward-Bridges. Timberwolves stock up. Celtics get their star and fully go in win-now mode with no more picks in the foreseeable. I didn’t run it in any trade machine because who knows who will be around or acquired in the offseason but that’s the gist of it (let’s say this happens in the following offseason, not this upcoming one).

Really, the key is having 3 teams in 3 different mind states. Someone wants to sell and restart because they’re not confident they can keep their incumbent star. Someone is looking to grow incrementally to build on another strong year around their foundation. Someone is looking to go all-in and mortgage their future for something now.

Will it happen? Well, that’s why GM’s always say that trades are always difficult, especially multi-team ones. If KAT is happy with the wolves, then this is probably a non-starter. If the Hornets view Rozier as foundational rather than a “what do we do with this guy?”, then they probably won’t bite. Something needs to change from the status quo to shake things up and make way for change.

That is an absolutely horrible trade for the Wolves. 

[coco]

Let me guess….

Let’s trade the whole team for KAT and become the east coast T’wloves.

….or, let’s destroy all resemblance of a team with chemistry for boy of wonder.

….and on and on.

KAT for Hofford, Theis.

[Vermont Green]

I don't think it is likely but how about a straight up trade, Brown for Towns.

Towns is 6'-11", 26 years old, career 23 pts / 11 rebs / 39% 3p% / 53% fg% / 83% ft%.  His net rating this year, on a fairly bad team, is +4.5 (team +1.6).  His contract is not bad.

Next season we would have:

Smart
White
Tatum
Towns
Williams

Is that better than:

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Theis
Williams

I doubt that either team does this but I guess my point is that Towns probably has more value as a trade asset than Brown.  Both are high, skilled bigs are just more rare, harder to get.

[LilRip]

Acquiring KAT would be amazing. Having Brown as your 3rd best player makes this team a contender imo.

Actually, if it came down to it, I would still do the trade if it meant Brown+pick+filler for KAT+starting (non-allstar) level point guard in a multi-team trade. (A point guard like idk, Brunson? Rozier? Dinwiddie? Guys who have the talent to start but aren’t at the level of ‘fringe allstar snub’ the way Brown is)

So for example, we could have a line up of Rozier/Smart/Tatum/KAT/TL

or alternatively, xx/Brown/Tatum/KAT/xx

Both are great lineups imo with the first one being more defensively versatile and the second one being more top heavy, ala BKN.

This package seems quite favorable to the Celtics.

I mean, yeah, but the team giving up the best player in the deal rarely gets something of equal value. Now, I don’t know what the Hornets really want but I’ll use them as a hypothetical 3rd team in this scenario:

Timberwolves out: KAT,
Timberwolves in: Horford, Oubre, Grant, 3 first rounders

Celtics out: JB, Horford, Grant, 2 first rounders
Celtics in: Rozier, KAT

Hornets out: Rozier, Oubre, 1 first
Hornets in: JB, filler

Something like that. Hornets upgrade their starting 5 by having Lamelo-Brown-Hayward-Bridges. Timberwolves stock up. Celtics get their star and fully go in win-now mode with no more picks in the foreseeable. I didn’t run it in any trade machine because who knows who will be around or acquired in the offseason but that’s the gist of it (let’s say this happens in the following offseason, not this upcoming one).

Really, the key is having 3 teams in 3 different mind states. Someone wants to sell and restart because they’re not confident they can keep their incumbent star. Someone is looking to grow incrementally to build on another strong year around their foundation. Someone is looking to go all-in and mortgage their future for something now.

Will it happen? Well, that’s why GM’s always say that trades are always difficult, especially multi-team ones. If KAT is happy with the wolves, then this is probably a non-starter. If the Hornets view Rozier as foundational rather than a “what do we do with this guy?”, then they probably won’t bite. Something needs to change from the status quo to shake things up and make way for change.

That is an absolutely horrible trade for the Wolves.

It isn’t a great haul but when you consider that Jimmy Butler was acquired for Josh Richardson, it’s not the craziest especially if KAT will want out. KAT has never had playoff success or been in any MVP conversation. He’s been all NBA 3rd team once and has 3 all star selections in a 7 year career. He’s very good and I think he’d be a great #2 guy but he’s not a guy like Paul George who can net you a treasure trove of picks. Would 4 picks be enough for KAT then?

Picks and cap space are a better haul than Smart and TL imo, both of whom are productive role players who are better suited for more established teams. They contribute too much to winning for a team to tank, make too much money for a team to sign someone significant, and are too talented to bench in favor of developing rookies.

[Vermont Green]

It isn’t a great haul but when you consider that Jimmy Butler was acquired for Josh Richardson, it’s not the craziest especially if KAT will want out. KAT has never had playoff success or been in any MVP conversation. He’s been all NBA 3rd team once and has 3 all star selections in a 7 year career. He’s very good and I think he’d be a great #2 guy but he’s not a guy like Paul George who can net you a treasure trove of picks. Would 4 picks be enough for KAT then?

Picks and cap space are a better haul than Smart and TL imo, both of whom are productive role players who are better suited for more established teams. They contribute too much to winning for a team to tank, make too much money for a team to sign someone significant, and are too talented to bench in favor of developing rookies.

I am not sure about the comparison to the Butler trade, I think there was more going on, but just look at what you are saying.  Towns is a 26 year old 3 time all star, once 3rd team all NBA, who is 6'-11" and shoots about 40% from 3.  And you want to get him for picks (probably not all that great ones) and cap space?

So you have Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and then is Towns the 4th best big in the game?  Maybe Davis is in there but he has been injured so much.  We are all just putting our opinions out there but I think you are severely undervaluing Towns.

[Moranis]

It isn’t a great haul but when you consider that Jimmy Butler was acquired for Josh Richardson, it’s not the craziest especially if KAT will want out. KAT has never had playoff success or been in any MVP conversation. He’s been all NBA 3rd team once and has 3 all star selections in a 7 year career. He’s very good and I think he’d be a great #2 guy but he’s not a guy like Paul George who can net you a treasure trove of picks. Would 4 picks be enough for KAT then?

Picks and cap space are a better haul than Smart and TL imo, both of whom are productive role players who are better suited for more established teams. They contribute too much to winning for a team to tank, make too much money for a team to sign someone significant, and are too talented to bench in favor of developing rookies.

I am not sure about the comparison to the Butler trade, I think there was more going on, but just look at what you are saying.  Towns is a 26 year old 3 time all star, once 3rd team all NBA, who is 6'-11" and shoots about 40% from 3.  And you want to get him for picks (probably not all that great ones) and cap space?

So you have Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and then is Towns the 4th best big in the game?  Maybe Davis is in there but he has been injured so much.  We are all just putting our opinions out there but I think you are severely undervaluing Towns.

He absolutely is.  No one would trade Brown for that level of package and Towns would take more.  It is all nice to want to make the Celtics better, but it does actually require logic and reasonableness or what is the point of playing in fantasy land. 

[LilRip]

It isn’t a great haul but when you consider that Jimmy Butler was acquired for Josh Richardson, it’s not the craziest especially if KAT will want out. KAT has never had playoff success or been in any MVP conversation. He’s been all NBA 3rd team once and has 3 all star selections in a 7 year career. He’s very good and I think he’d be a great #2 guy but he’s not a guy like Paul George who can net you a treasure trove of picks. Would 4 picks be enough for KAT then?

Picks and cap space are a better haul than Smart and TL imo, both of whom are productive role players who are better suited for more established teams. They contribute too much to winning for a team to tank, make too much money for a team to sign someone significant, and are too talented to bench in favor of developing rookies.

I am not sure about the comparison to the Butler trade, I think there was more going on, but just look at what you are saying.  Towns is a 26 year old 3 time all star, once 3rd team all NBA, who is 6'-11" and shoots about 40% from 3.  And you want to get him for picks (probably not all that great ones) and cap space?

So you have Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and then is Towns the 4th best big in the game?  Maybe Davis is in there but he has been injured so much.  We are all just putting our opinions out there but I think you are severely undervaluing Towns.

He absolutely is.  No one would trade Brown for that level of package and Towns would take more.  It is all nice to want to make the Celtics better, but it does actually require logic and reasonableness or what is the point of playing in fantasy land.

Again, like I said in my original post, it’s a prerequisite that something has to happen to shake up the status quo. Otherwise, to get guys who teams don’t want to let go off, u have to overpay. Look at the Derrick White trade. He’s a great get for us but with Jrich+picks, that’s an overpay. And it’s because Spurs didn’t want to let him go but that’s just a difficult deal to say no to, especially in the context of incremental improvement.

As it stands, we can offer JB+TL+2 first rounders and it probably won’t be enough to pry Towns away from the Wolves. Something needs to change first.

[LilRip]

Really, the key is having 3 teams in 3 different mind states. Someone wants to sell and restart because they’re not confident they can keep their incumbent star. Someone is looking to grow incrementally to build on another strong year around their foundation. Someone is looking to go all-in and mortgage their future for something now.

Will it happen? Well, that’s why GM’s always say that trades are always difficult, especially multi-team ones. If KAT is happy with the wolves, then this is probably a non-starter. If the Hornets view Rozier as foundational rather than a “what do we do with this guy?”, then they probably won’t bite. Something needs to change from the status quo to shake things up and make way for change.

For reference

[CBS_Take a Report]

Given the assets we possess I could see either of the two below trades being acceptable to the TWolves:

1. Jaylen Brown + Al Horford + Pick(s)

2. Al Horford + Marcus Smart + Robert Williams III + Pick(s)

Both packages are painful abs quite honestly don’t make us better. I guess I could get around the trade package that doesn’t include Brown which would have us lock in on a 3 headed monster of Jaylen Brown-Jayson Tatum-Karl-Anthony Towns which would be pretty [dang] good with any parts around them.

I love the idea of a feisty guard like DWhite wrapping up that lineup. Would need a veteran PG and someone to push Grant Williams to the bench which is where I like him best (spark plug).

[Vermont Green]

As it stands, we can offer JB+TL+2 first rounders and it probably won’t be enough to pry Towns away from the Wolves. Something needs to change first.

If that is what you envision the trade being'ish, then yes, we agree on the relative value of Towns.

There are teams that I could see offering up good young talent to get Towns but it would be teams that are looking for a full restart.  Like SAC before their Indy trade could have offered Haliburton, Bagley, etc, and both teams would have been resetting their rosters.  Maybe NOP offers Williamson and some other young players.

I don't think the Celtics would give up Brown and Williams (for example), two starters.  We have a good team.  There is risk in doing a reset, even if you get back a player like Towns.  That is the comparative value though.  I am not sure what kind of change to the status quo would need to happen to alter that.

[LilRip]

As it stands, we can offer JB+TL+2 first rounders and it probably won’t be enough to pry Towns away from the Wolves. Something needs to change first.

If that is what you envision the trade being'ish, then yes, we agree on the relative value of Towns.

There are teams that I could see offering up good young talent to get Towns but it would be teams that are looking for a full restart.  Like SAC before their Indy trade could have offered Haliburton, Bagley, etc, and both teams would have been resetting their rosters.  Maybe NOP offers Williamson and some other young players.

I don't think the Celtics would give up Brown and Williams (for example), two starters.  We have a good team.  There is risk in doing a reset, even if you get back a player like Towns.  That is the comparative value though.  I am not sure what kind of change to the status quo would need to happen to alter that.

The change in the status quo that will need to happen will have to take place beyond the court. It can’t be about matching talent.

For example, KAT needs to say that he wants out. Now, by all accounts, he has said he wants to stay in Minny and the whole reason this thread got started was because KAT is a KG fan and he was seen in a photo op in ASG hanging around KG (and other C’s legends). This board just happened to run with it because there isn’t much basketball to talk about. But if KAT wants out? Then the Wolves could make a move instead of losing him for nothing. Another example: if KAT and Edwards were apparently not getting along and the Wolves decide they want to build around Anthony Edwards moving forward.

These are more off-court driven rather than actual basketball being played. But without something like that, we’re just going to end up swapping talent for talent and both teams will end up treading water. To your point, does trading JB+TL for KAT really make the C’s better? Does it improve the Wolves? 

Perennial allstar, all-NBA, all-defense player Butler (who wanted out) got traded for just JRich. Perennial allstar, multi-DPOY player Dwight Howard (who wanted out) got traded for Arron Afflalo, old man Al Harrington, Nikola Vucevic (who was averaging 5pts 5rebs) and 3 protected picks. Both those guys were more accomplished than KAT, easy.

Our very own perennial allstar, playoff god, and arguably one of the best PGs in the league at the time, Rajon Rondo got traded for Jae Crowder, cap space, and one protected 1st. Granted Rondo was coming off injury, which tanked his value, but KAT arguably isn’t even as accomplished as Rondo was (who was still just 28) at the time of the trade with Dallas.