Celtics trade grades?

[gouki88]

I do think objectivity may be somewhat in question when 42 folks gave Stevens a B on his rookie trade deadline. That’s one green tinted lens the crew seems to be looking thru…

Daniel Theis is not an NBA rotation player. Wasn’t on the Rockets, isn’t on the Cs. White? 22 mins, 5 points tonite. He really doesn’t bring anything the Cs lacked before Feb 10th.

Both the Rockets and Spurs are thrilled with the deals they got.

I was one of those who voted D, mainly because of the picks, but I think White is a significant upgrade over anyone we sent out for the kind of identity we're trying to build.

His shot is concerning. Ime not wanting to play Theis is his decision, not Brad's.

So far, White isn’t a significant upgrade over anyone anywhere. And blaming Ime for Theis not being an NBA rotation player is a reach. The guy didn’t play on the Houston G-League team. It’s 100% on Stevens. He bailed Houston out, plain and simple.

Agreed. Richardson's main contribution is one the Celtics could use more of esp come playoff time: shot making. We gave up a lot, ask any Spurs fan.

Richardson has been absolutely garbage in every way besides his three point shooting since joining San Antonio. Not sure why he's getting deified like some reliable sniper when he's routinely let teams down come playoff time, particularly with his streaky shooting.

These guys are basically a wash at this point, especially when White is taking and missing so many 3’s. He’s averaging over 6 shots from 3pt per game, which is ridiculous.

Josh Richardson stats per 36 in SA: 12.7pts, 4.4reb, 4.0ast, 1blk, FG:36.2%, 3PT:43.5%, FT:90%

Derrick White stats per 36 in BOS: 15.5pts, 4.6reb, 4.3ast, 1.5blk, FG:42.3%, 3PT:26.4%, FT:83.9%

Per 36 is funny to use when the sample size is so small. Why not for the season? Is it maybe because it is indicative of how superior a playmaker White is? Also, using Richardson's per36 stats in San Antonio (playing a completely different role on a garbage team) instead of his per36 numbers here is disingenuous, to say the least.

[Goldstar88]

I do think objectivity may be somewhat in question when 42 folks gave Stevens a B on his rookie trade deadline. That’s one green tinted lens the crew seems to be looking thru…

Daniel Theis is not an NBA rotation player. Wasn’t on the Rockets, isn’t on the Cs. White? 22 mins, 5 points tonite. He really doesn’t bring anything the Cs lacked before Feb 10th.

Both the Rockets and Spurs are thrilled with the deals they got.

I was one of those who voted D, mainly because of the picks, but I think White is a significant upgrade over anyone we sent out for the kind of identity we're trying to build.

His shot is concerning. Ime not wanting to play Theis is his decision, not Brad's.

So far, White isn’t a significant upgrade over anyone anywhere. And blaming Ime for Theis not being an NBA rotation player is a reach. The guy didn’t play on the Houston G-League team. It’s 100% on Stevens. He bailed Houston out, plain and simple.

Agreed. Richardson's main contribution is one the Celtics could use more of esp come playoff time: shot making. We gave up a lot, ask any Spurs fan.

Richardson has been absolutely garbage in every way besides his three point shooting since joining San Antonio. Not sure why he's getting deified like some reliable sniper when he's routinely let teams down come playoff time, particularly with his streaky shooting.

These guys are basically a wash at this point, especially when White is taking and missing so many 3’s. He’s averaging over 6 shots from 3pt per game, which is ridiculous.

Josh Richardson stats per 36 in SA: 12.7pts, 4.4reb, 4.0ast, 1blk, FG:36.2%, 3PT:43.5%, FT:90%

Derrick White stats per 36 in BOS: 15.5pts, 4.6reb, 4.3ast, 1.5blk, FG:42.3%, 3PT:26.4%, FT:83.9%

Per 36 is funny to use when the sample size is so small. Why not for the season? Is it maybe because it is indicative of how superior a playmaker White is? Also, using Richardson's per36 stats in San Antonio (playing a completely different role on a garbage team) instead of his per36 numbers here is disingenuous, to say the least.

It’s a comparison of how the players have been doing on their new teams since the trade, Richardsons per 36 is Comparable to what it was in Boston, nothing disingenuous about it. 

[Vermont Green]

The biggest gripe with Derrick White is 3pt shooting.  Before this season, he was a career 35.6% from 3 (over 600 attempts).  This season with SAS, he was down to 31.4% (258 attempts) and with the Celtics he is hitting only 24.6% (57 attempts).  24.6% is obviously really bad.  I don't know why he is so far below his career average but it is understandable that fans are critical of his shooting since joining the Celtics.  Everyone agrees that he has otherwise been really good.

So if he can get back to shooting say 35% from 3, the consensus will likely be that we may have overpaid but that we got a good player on a good contract.  If he continues to shoot 24%, this will go down as a bad trade.  Maybe it is the new ball or the new defense rule, whatever, he needs to figure it out and start making more shots.

I don't feel that is is unreasonable to expect him to get his shooting back to his career norms or better.  That may involve better shot selection.  In any case, it is probably premature to judge the trade based on him shooting 24% from 3.  That is probably not who he is as a player in the longer run.  Didn't Tatum miss 21 in a row or something like that earlier this season?  He has certainly had stretches where he has shot in the 20s% from 3 for a stretch of 50-60 attempts (27% in Oct to start the season on 55 attempts for example).

[todd_days_41]

I do think objectivity may be somewhat in question when 42 folks gave Stevens a B on his rookie trade deadline. That’s one green tinted lens the crew seems to be looking thru…

Daniel Theis is not an NBA rotation player. Wasn’t on the Rockets, isn’t on the Cs. White? 22 mins, 5 points tonite. He really doesn’t bring anything the Cs lacked before Feb 10th.

Both the Rockets and Spurs are thrilled with the deals they got.

I was one of those who voted D, mainly because of the picks, but I think White is a significant upgrade over anyone we sent out for the kind of identity we're trying to build.

His shot is concerning. Ime not wanting to play Theis is his decision, not Brad's.

So far, White isn’t a significant upgrade over anyone anywhere. And blaming Ime for Theis not being an NBA rotation player is a reach. The guy didn’t play on the Houston G-League team. It’s 100% on Stevens. He bailed Houston out, plain and simple.

Agreed. Richardson's main contribution is one the Celtics could use more of esp come playoff time: shot making. We gave up a lot, ask any Spurs fan.

Richardson has been absolutely garbage in every way besides his three point shooting since joining San Antonio. Not sure why he's getting deified like some reliable sniper when he's routinely let teams down come playoff time, particularly with his streaky shooting.

These guys are basically a wash at this point, especially when White is taking and missing so many 3’s. He’s averaging over 6 shots from 3pt per game, which is ridiculous.

Josh Richardson stats per 36 in SA: 12.7pts, 4.4reb, 4.0ast, 1blk, FG:36.2%, 3PT:43.5%, FT:90%

Derrick White stats per 36 in BOS: 15.5pts, 4.6reb, 4.3ast, 1.5blk, FG:42.3%, 3PT:26.4%, FT:83.9%

Per 36 is funny to use when the sample size is so small. Why not for the season? Is it maybe because it is indicative of how superior a playmaker White is? Also, using Richardson's per36 stats in San Antonio (playing a completely different role on a garbage team) instead of his per36 numbers here is disingenuous, to say the least.

It’s a comparison of how the players have been doing on their new teams since the trade, Richardsons per 36 is Comparable to what it was in Boston, nothing disingenuous about it.

Why not argue how Richardson played as a Celtic to how White had played here? The point: White as a replacement for Richardson has been mediocre considering the silly price paid.

[W8ting2McHale]

The point: White as a replacement for Richardson has been mediocre considering the silly price paid.

Well, if you look at it that way, you might be right. I think that’s an extremely short sighted way to look at it. I see the trade for White being in line with this article: https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/14/22971220/why-boston-celtics-6th-man-tradition-perfectly-suits-derrick-white-kevin-mchale-marcus-smart


In which White is a 6 man role. He’s not replacing Richardson or Schröder, but rather upgrading parts of both their roles into one Swiss Army knife player. Richardson was good at defense, but not facilitating or creating. White is good at defense AND facilitating and creating. Schröder was good at creating and mediocre at defense and distributing. He’s the Venn diagram of where those 2 overlap. Neither of them could fully take over the Celtics style 6 man role because they weren’t the Jack of all trades type of player that White is.

He’s the new Evan Turner or Jack Ramsey, not Josh Richardson, and that role is more valuable to this Celtics team. And he’s replacing 2 salaries with one, which opens up a spot for a veteran shooter that this team desperately needs, and that neither Richardson or Schröder were.

[slamtheking]

The point: White as a replacement for Richardson has been mediocre considering the silly price paid.

Well, if you look at it that way, you might be right. I think that’s an extremely short sighted way to look at it. I see the trade for White being in line with this article: https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/14/22971220/why-boston-celtics-6th-man-tradition-perfectly-suits-derrick-white-kevin-mchale-marcus-smart


In which White is a 6 man role. He’s not replacing Richardson or Schröder, but rather upgrading parts of both their roles into one Swiss Army knife player. Richardson was good at defense, but not facilitating or creating. White is good at defense AND facilitating and creating. Schröder was good at creating and mediocre at defense and distributing. He’s the Venn diagram of where those 2 overlap. Neither of them could fully take over the Celtics style 6 man role because they weren’t the Jack of all trades type of player that White is.

He’s the new Evan Turner or Jack Ramsey, not Josh Richardson, and that role is more valuable to this Celtics team. And he’s replacing 2 salaries with one, which opens up a spot for a veteran shooter that this team desperately needs, and that neither Richardson or Schröder were.

put whatever spin on the trades that you feel will justify them for you but even looking at it from the perspective you're offering, White is really underperforming in that role and right now wasn't worth the cost of JRich alone, never mind adding in Romeo, a first and a swap.

[Big333223]

The point: White as a replacement for Richardson has been mediocre considering the silly price paid.

Well, if you look at it that way, you might be right. I think that’s an extremely short sighted way to look at it. I see the trade for White being in line with this article: https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/3/14/22971220/why-boston-celtics-6th-man-tradition-perfectly-suits-derrick-white-kevin-mchale-marcus-smart


In which White is a 6 man role. He’s not replacing Richardson or Schröder, but rather upgrading parts of both their roles into one Swiss Army knife player. Richardson was good at defense, but not facilitating or creating. White is good at defense AND facilitating and creating. Schröder was good at creating and mediocre at defense and distributing. He’s the Venn diagram of where those 2 overlap. Neither of them could fully take over the Celtics style 6 man role because they weren’t the Jack of all trades type of player that White is.

He’s the new Evan Turner or Jack Ramsey, not Josh Richardson, and that role is more valuable to this Celtics team. And he’s replacing 2 salaries with one, which opens up a spot for a veteran shooter that this team desperately needs, and that neither Richardson or Schröder were.

This is how I see it.

If White's 3-point shooting can come up some, he's a big upgrade on Richardson, who is a player I liked a lot and would take back in a heartbeat but couldn't do what White does for the team's offense.

[Wretch]

13 game sample is way to small to make a judgement either way on Derrick White.  If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).  1 or 2 bad/good games can wildly swing the percentages in either direction. Based on his history and age I tend to think the low 3p% is an aberration.

He cost the Celtics 1.5 (the swap counts as.5 since it's not guaranteed to convey) first round picks.  Aaron Gordon cost a first and (better) prospects/players (Hampton and Harris) to Denver and White is a better defender, passer, and ball handler,  White is frankly a better player in general than Gordon.

So depending on the swap White could cost slightly more or slightly less than Gordon in terms of pick and players.  The trade for White wasn't an overpay.  It was the cost of doing business for players of his caliber.

Good analysis on reddit of his advanced stats ratings: https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/sr3z6r/the_advanced_stats_case_for_how_derrick_white_is/

He basically rates as a top 50ish player when his defense and non-counting stats are taken into consideration.

[Roy H.]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

As for White, I like him as a player, but I do think we overpaid, and I don't think his contract is as good as some folks say it is.  And, I don't think he's a top-50 player in the NBA.  He's not even a top-five player on the Celtics.

[Wretch]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

I agree, hence me saying the sample size is too small and good or bad games wildly swing the averages in the same paragraph.

[Goldstar88]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

I agree, hence me saying the sample size is too small and good or bad games wildly swing the averages in the same paragraph.

48 games in SA this year and he wasn’t much better at 30%. Outside of his rookie season when he barely played, White has only had 1 year shooting over 35% from 3pt, which was during the 2019 season. Not sure why people are convinced that he’s going to start shooting better.

[slamtheking]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

I agree, hence me saying the sample size is too small and good or bad games wildly swing the averages in the same paragraph.

48 games in SA this year and he wasn’t much better at 30%. Outside of his rookie season when he barely played, White has only had 1 year shooting over 35% from 3pt, which was during the 2019 season. Not sure why people are convinced that he’s going to start shooting better.

I don't understand that either.  he's not a proven outside shooter having a down year -- he's a player that has yet to show he's a reliable outside shooter.  A better ball handler and passer than Richardson -- sure, I'll go along with that.  A better shooter - nope.  A better scorer -- nope.  better for our offense -- not seeing it --> seems to be about equivalent in the sense where Richardson was a better scorer whereas White is a better passer and provides a secondary ball handler with Smart but until White can make something with consistency (even Smart is pretty consistent from in the lane and within 15 feet which White has not shown yet) he's not improving this team's offense.  Defensively, he's switchable but so was Richardson and he wasn't a slouch on D.

[Roy H.]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

I agree, hence me saying the sample size is too small and good or bad games wildly swing the averages in the same paragraph.

48 games in SA this year and he wasn’t much better at 30%. Outside of his rookie season when he barely played, White has only had 1 year shooting over 35% from 3pt, which was during the 2019 season. Not sure why people are convinced that he’s going to start shooting better.

I don't understand that either.  he's not a proven outside shooter having a down year -- he's a player that has yet to show he's a reliable outside shooter.  A better ball handler and passer than Richardson -- sure, I'll go along with that.  A better shooter - nope.  A better scorer -- nope.  better for our offense -- not seeing it --> seems to be about equivalent in the sense where Richardson was a better scorer whereas White is a better passer and provides a secondary ball handler with Smart but until White can make something with consistency (even Smart is pretty consistent from in the lane and within 15 feet which White has not shown yet) he's not improving this team's offense.  Defensively, he's switchable but so was Richardson and he wasn't a slouch on D.

Can you explain what you mean by "better scorer"?

I'll agree with better shooter.  But, White seems to be more of a scorer to me, whereas Richardson seemed more passive.

[Vermont Green]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

I agree, hence me saying the sample size is too small and good or bad games wildly swing the averages in the same paragraph.

48 games in SA this year and he wasn’t much better at 30%. Outside of his rookie season when he barely played, White has only had 1 year shooting over 35% from 3pt, which was during the 2019 season. Not sure why people are convinced that he’s going to start shooting better.

For White, this season, especially since joining the Celtics, his 3pt shooting is well below his career averages.  At his age, you would expect to see continued improvement in his shooting, not a rather abrupt regression.  I don't see it as surprising that many (including me) expect him to return to his career norms or a little better.  That seems much more likely than for him to continue shooting like he has this season, by far the worst of his career.

No one knows of course.  I don't recall watching him all that much before he joined the Celtics.  What I have seen in these 13 games is a player that looks really uncomfortable shooting the 3.  It hasn't been pretty.  But statistically, it correlates as an outlier, not as the norm.  So we'll see.

[slamtheking]

If he makes 1 more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 21/57 (37%).

I hate arguments like this in general.  While this is true, if he misses one more 3 pointer every other game in those 13 games he's 7/57 (12%).

I don't think hypotheticals that didn't happen tell us a lot.

I agree, hence me saying the sample size is too small and good or bad games wildly swing the averages in the same paragraph.

48 games in SA this year and he wasn’t much better at 30%. Outside of his rookie season when he barely played, White has only had 1 year shooting over 35% from 3pt, which was during the 2019 season. Not sure why people are convinced that he’s going to start shooting better.

I don't understand that either.  he's not a proven outside shooter having a down year -- he's a player that has yet to show he's a reliable outside shooter.  A better ball handler and passer than Richardson -- sure, I'll go along with that.  A better shooter - nope.  A better scorer -- nope.  better for our offense -- not seeing it --> seems to be about equivalent in the sense where Richardson was a better scorer whereas White is a better passer and provides a secondary ball handler with Smart but until White can make something with consistency (even Smart is pretty consistent from in the lane and within 15 feet which White has not shown yet) he's not improving this team's offense.  Defensively, he's switchable but so was Richardson and he wasn't a slouch on D.

Can you explain what you mean by "better scorer"?

I'll agree with better shooter.  But, White seems to be more of a scorer to me, whereas Richardson seemed more passive.

by better scorer, I'm referring to the ability to put the ball in the basket while on the move -- driving into the paint, driving and pulling up for an easy 2, etc...   by shooter, I'm referring to the ability to hit shots from 3 and catch-and-shoot situations from wherever on the floor.