Celtics trade grades?

[slamtheking]

We'll see in time, but it seems incontrovertible at this point that we're a better team right now with these guys than what we had prior to the deadline.

Why is it incontrovertible? Seems far from it, honestly.

Example: neither White nor Theis had any notable impact on today's game with BKN. What could Richardson, Schroder and / or Fernando not have accomplished that White or Theis did? Nada.

In what ways are they discernibly better? Like, actual ways.... not tales of chemistry and fit.

In the most discernible way possible - record.

So White and Theis are causing the Cs to win? More so that Richardson and Schroder? In some clear way? Hogwash. The Cs had won something like 7-8 in a row immediately before the deadline.

agreed.  Team had turned the corner before the trading deadline.  White is not the reason for the turnaround.  It was the core players that started playing as a cohesive unit on defense that turned the corner and that included Richardson and Schroder and Romeo when he was getting minutes

[Roy H.]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

Featured?

11.6 FGAs in 30 minutes per game.  Murray was the featured guy in San Antonio.  White was part of a fairly balanced attack that saw he, Keldon Johnson, Lonnie Walker, Devin Vassell, Jakob Poeltl, and Doug McDermott all get between 9.4 and 12.7 shots per game.

[Moranis]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

Featured?

11.6 FGAs in 30 minutes per game.  Murray was the featured guy in San Antonio.  White was part of a fairly balanced attack that saw he, Keldon Johnson, Lonnie Walker, Devin Vassell, Jakob Poeltl, and Doug McDermott all get between 9.4 and 12.7 shots per game.

He is 2.3 less shots per game in Boston than he was in San Antonio, but is 1.5 more shots than Richardson was getting in Boston.  And Richardson is not even playing in San Antonio at all.  So White is pretty clearly a more valuable player than Richardson. 

[Roy H.]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

[Goldstar88]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

Featured?

11.6 FGAs in 30 minutes per game.  Murray was the featured guy in San Antonio.  White was part of a fairly balanced attack that saw he, Keldon Johnson, Lonnie Walker, Devin Vassell, Jakob Poeltl, and Doug McDermott all get between 9.4 and 12.7 shots per game.

He is 2.3 less shots per game in Boston than he was in San Antonio, but is 1.5 more shots than Richardson was getting in Boston.  And Richardson is not even playing in San Antonio at all.  So White is pretty clearly a more valuable player than Richardson.

San Antonio is in rebuild mode and Richardson is not part of their future. Spurs are trying to develop their young players. Really wish Brad used the TPE to get White and Kept Richardson. Bench rotation of White, Richardson, Grant, Theis, Pritchard would have been solid.

[Roy H.]

Bench rotation of White, Richardson, Grant, Theis, Pritchard would have been solid.

The only way we could have done that is if we paid luxury tax, which Wyc wasn't going to do.

I suppose we could have kept Richardson if we'd decided not to trade Theis, and sent Nesmith out as well.  But, I suspect that San Antonio is going to look to flip Richardson for an additional asset this summer, so they may not have played along.

[slamtheking]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

Richardson with the C's: 39.7% from 3.  63.6% from 2.  44.3% fg% overall.  85.9% from the line
White with the C's: 26.7% from 3. 54.2% from 2.  40.9% fg% overall.  82.8% from the line.

Richardson's numbers - other teams have to guard him all over the court.  he's a threat to score.
White's numbers - back off from the 3 to guard against the drive/dish thus giving the D an opportunity to help off White, clog the lane and dare him to shoot from 3 which is a low-success shot for him (for most of his career he hasn't exactly lit it up from 3).
Even Smart is hitting 3's at a 32.6% clip and he's frequently not tightly covered at the 3 line.

In short, other teams can approach him as a 'prove it to me' shooter before having to worry about guarding him out to the 3 unlike Richardson.  we've seen this time and time again used against Marcus with some success.  same will be done with White. 

I think he brings improved ball handling and passing to the team over Richardson and a more team-oriented offensive approach than Schroder but he doesn't provide enough of anything to justify the cost of that trade nor the followup to move Schroder. 

[td450]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

Richardson with the C's: 39.7% from 3.  63.6% from 2.  44.3% fg% overall.  85.9% from the line
White with the C's: 26.7% from 3. 54.2% from 2.  40.9% fg% overall.  82.8% from the line.

Richardson's numbers - other teams have to guard him all over the court.  he's a threat to score.
White's numbers - back off from the 3 to guard against the drive/dish thus giving the D an opportunity to help off White, clog the lane and dare him to shoot from 3 which is a low-success shot for him (for most of his career he hasn't exactly lit it up from 3).
Even Smart is hitting 3's at a 32.6% clip and he's frequently not tightly covered at the 3 line.

In short, other teams can approach him as a 'prove it to me' shooter before having to worry about guarding him out to the 3 unlike Richardson.  we've seen this time and time again used against Marcus with some success.  same will be done with White. 

I think he brings improved ball handling and passing to the team over Richardson and a more team-oriented offensive approach than Schroder but he doesn't provide enough of anything to justify the cost of that trade nor the followup to move Schroder.

Perhaps it will give you pause to know that San Antonio played White as a core player and they have no interest in Richardson. He barely plays and they likely will just move him when they can.

I also think that White provides a different type of competition for Marcus Smart, and he's adjusted accordingly. This is the best stretch of Smart's career.

[Goldstar88]

Bench rotation of White, Richardson, Grant, Theis, Pritchard would have been solid.

The only way we could have done that is if we paid luxury tax, which Wyc wasn't going to do.

I suppose we could have kept Richardson if we'd decided not to trade Theis, and sent Nesmith out as well.  But, I suspect that San Antonio is going to look to flip Richardson for an additional asset this summer, so they may not have played along.

So small market teams like Milwaukee and Utah are willing to go into the luxury tax for a contending roster, but the C’s won’t? If that’s the case they should sell the team.

Think I would have preferred not trading for Theis and moving Nesmith instead if it meant keeping Richardson. Theis is an insurance policy and come playoff time, I expect the bigs rotation to be Timelord, Horford, Grant with Tatum also seeing some time at PF. I also believe that Richardson will be traded in the off-season, but what is he going to net, a couple of second rounders?

[Vermont Green]

This is a really tough trade to grade.  Actually it is a collective grade for a couple of trades.

The two key pieces that we added were White and Theis.  We gave up a couple of rotation players (Schroder and Richardson), some players that weren't really rotation but still had some varying degree of value (Langford, Freedom, Fernando), and of course a pick and a maybe future swap.  It is a lot to give up for White and Theis, there is no question about that.

In terms of roster or position, White replaced Schroder and Langford more than anything else.  White is a combo guard so and is taking minutes that would have been mostly Schroder and some of Langford (if he had been healthy).  To me, this is a clear on the court upgrade for the combo guard position.

In terms of the wing position, we traded a very capable back up wing and will be replacing those minutes with some combination of Nesmith, GWilliams, and Stauskas.  This is clearly not an upgrade.  It is a downgrade for the back up wing position.

And the last positional piece is the big rotation where we added Theis as a back up big over Freedom and Fernando.  This is also for sure an upgrade, even if Theis is still working himself into the rotation.  Some are writing Theis off for this season but I think that is premature.  Theis has shown what he can do over the years which is more than Freedom or Fernando.

So we have upgrades at combo guard and big but a downgrade at wing.  That is why this overall transaction is so hard to grade.  Multiple positions were changed, some for the better, some for the worse.  I think in the end, this is a net positive transaction for this season and if we can get a good back up wing in the off season, we are really well positioned moving forward.

[slamtheking]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

Richardson with the C's: 39.7% from 3.  63.6% from 2.  44.3% fg% overall.  85.9% from the line
White with the C's: 26.7% from 3. 54.2% from 2.  40.9% fg% overall.  82.8% from the line.

Richardson's numbers - other teams have to guard him all over the court.  he's a threat to score.
White's numbers - back off from the 3 to guard against the drive/dish thus giving the D an opportunity to help off White, clog the lane and dare him to shoot from 3 which is a low-success shot for him (for most of his career he hasn't exactly lit it up from 3).
Even Smart is hitting 3's at a 32.6% clip and he's frequently not tightly covered at the 3 line.

In short, other teams can approach him as a 'prove it to me' shooter before having to worry about guarding him out to the 3 unlike Richardson.  we've seen this time and time again used against Marcus with some success.  same will be done with White. 

I think he brings improved ball handling and passing to the team over Richardson and a more team-oriented offensive approach than Schroder but he doesn't provide enough of anything to justify the cost of that trade nor the followup to move Schroder.

Perhaps it will give you pause to know that San Antonio played White as a core player and they have no interest in Richardson. He barely plays and they likely will just move him when they can.

I also think that White provides a different type of competition for Marcus Smart, and he's adjusted accordingly. This is the best stretch of Smart's career.

I'm looking at what both players did and are doing in Boston.  Smart is playing as well as he ever has here -- but that started before the trade. 

how SA uses Richardson is irrelevant.  SA is in rebuild mode so they're going to look at younger players and Richardson will be moved one way or the other for a young player or pick if possible.  The attraction for SA in the deal was to get that pick, the swap and Romeo to see what he's got.  Richardson is the salary match.

point blank - White is not worth what we gave up overall at the trade deadline.  that's including Theis coming in.  The C's have no pick this coming draft to add cheap young talent and have to rely on TPEs or MLE to add talent.  The question is with the dwindling FA market due to players resigning with their teams, who's going to be left of value that could help this team that would fit in the TPEs or would take the MLE that's worth it?  I suspect there won't be much.

[Roy H.]

Bench rotation of White, Richardson, Grant, Theis, Pritchard would have been solid.

The only way we could have done that is if we paid luxury tax, which Wyc wasn't going to do.

I suppose we could have kept Richardson if we'd decided not to trade Theis, and sent Nesmith out as well.  But, I suspect that San Antonio is going to look to flip Richardson for an additional asset this summer, so they may not have played along.

So small market teams like Milwaukee and Utah are willing to go into the luxury tax for a contending roster, but the C’s won’t? If that’s the case they should sell the team.

Think I would have preferred not trading for Theis and moving Nesmith instead if it meant keeping Richardson. Theis is an insurance policy and come playoff time, I expect the bigs rotation to be Timelord, Horford, Grant with Tatum also seeing some time at PF. I also believe that Richardson will be traded in the off-season, but what is he going to net, a couple of second rounders?

I suspect that Wyc's and Brad's analysis was that having Richardson on the roster wouldn't have made us a significantly stronger contender, and thus they wished to avoid the tax.  They'd rather save the TPE for a different target.

[Roy H.]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

Richardson with the C's: 39.7% from 3.  63.6% from 2.  44.3% fg% overall.  85.9% from the line
White with the C's: 26.7% from 3. 54.2% from 2.  40.9% fg% overall.  82.8% from the line.

Richardson's numbers - other teams have to guard him all over the court.  he's a threat to score.
White's numbers - back off from the 3 to guard against the drive/dish thus giving the D an opportunity to help off White, clog the lane and dare him to shoot from 3 which is a low-success shot for him (for most of his career he hasn't exactly lit it up from 3).
Even Smart is hitting 3's at a 32.6% clip and he's frequently not tightly covered at the 3 line.

In short, other teams can approach him as a 'prove it to me' shooter before having to worry about guarding him out to the 3 unlike Richardson.  we've seen this time and time again used against Marcus with some success.  same will be done with White. 

I think he brings improved ball handling and passing to the team over Richardson and a more team-oriented offensive approach than Schroder but he doesn't provide enough of anything to justify the cost of that trade nor the followup to move Schroder.

Perhaps it will give you pause to know that San Antonio played White as a core player and they have no interest in Richardson. He barely plays and they likely will just move him when they can.

I also think that White provides a different type of competition for Marcus Smart, and he's adjusted accordingly. This is the best stretch of Smart's career.

I'm looking at what both players did and are doing in Boston.  Smart is playing as well as he ever has here -- but that started before the trade. 

how SA uses Richardson is irrelevant.  SA is in rebuild mode so they're going to look at younger players and Richardson will be moved one way or the other for a young player or pick if possible.  The attraction for SA in the deal was to get that pick, the swap and Romeo to see what he's got.  Richardson is the salary match.

point blank - White is not worth what we gave up overall at the trade deadline.  that's including Theis coming in.  The C's have no pick this coming draft to add cheap young talent and have to rely on TPEs or MLE to add talent.  The question is with the dwindling FA market due to players resigning with their teams, who's going to be left of value that could help this team that would fit in the TPEs or would take the MLE that's worth it?  I suspect there won't be much.

In fairness, we landed Richardson through one of those TPEs.  Somebody decent will probably be available.

[Goldstar88]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

Richardson with the C's: 39.7% from 3.  63.6% from 2.  44.3% fg% overall.  85.9% from the line
White with the C's: 26.7% from 3. 54.2% from 2.  40.9% fg% overall.  82.8% from the line.

Richardson's numbers - other teams have to guard him all over the court.  he's a threat to score.
White's numbers - back off from the 3 to guard against the drive/dish thus giving the D an opportunity to help off White, clog the lane and dare him to shoot from 3 which is a low-success shot for him (for most of his career he hasn't exactly lit it up from 3).
Even Smart is hitting 3's at a 32.6% clip and he's frequently not tightly covered at the 3 line.

In short, other teams can approach him as a 'prove it to me' shooter before having to worry about guarding him out to the 3 unlike Richardson.  we've seen this time and time again used against Marcus with some success.  same will be done with White. 

I think he brings improved ball handling and passing to the team over Richardson and a more team-oriented offensive approach than Schroder but he doesn't provide enough of anything to justify the cost of that trade nor the followup to move Schroder.

What I worry about with White is that he started out playing well for the first few games and has been getting worse, which is odd. Not just his scoring either. His defense has looked mediocre and he’s not getting assists. Certain players may not be good 3 point shooters, but they at least have a midrange game. Derrick can’t hit a shot from anywhere outside of the paint right now. It’s concerning.

[slamtheking]

my biggest gripe, other than the fact we seriously overpaid, is that he's not a real offensive threat.  Schroder could go off for 20 in a game as could Richardson.  White, not at all.

Richardson only scored 20+ twice all season.  White will start producing more I suspect.

yeah white had 9 20 pt games this season alone.

As a featured guy on a lottery team.

yup.  big difference putting up points on a team with few other options to do so and putting them up on a team with other options.  Schroder showed he was capable of providing that third scorer when one of the J's wasn't having a good night.  He did tend to be a ball stopper but he was still someone the defense had to respect.  Same with Richardson even though he didn't put up many 20 point games, he was a threat on the floor to score.  White isn't showing that.  I hope that changes.  I really, really do because the J's by themselves aren't enough to carry the offense every night in the playoffs.

How is Richardson a threat to score but White isn't?  Richardson put up less points in about equal minutes.

Schroder scored 3.2 points more per game on 1.6 more FGAs.

I get the argument that we lost two rotation players, which White can't replace by himself.  We just have to hope that Theis and Pritchard pick up the slack until White gets feeling right.

Richardson with the C's: 39.7% from 3.  63.6% from 2.  44.3% fg% overall.  85.9% from the line
White with the C's: 26.7% from 3. 54.2% from 2.  40.9% fg% overall.  82.8% from the line.

Richardson's numbers - other teams have to guard him all over the court.  he's a threat to score.
White's numbers - back off from the 3 to guard against the drive/dish thus giving the D an opportunity to help off White, clog the lane and dare him to shoot from 3 which is a low-success shot for him (for most of his career he hasn't exactly lit it up from 3).
Even Smart is hitting 3's at a 32.6% clip and he's frequently not tightly covered at the 3 line.

In short, other teams can approach him as a 'prove it to me' shooter before having to worry about guarding him out to the 3 unlike Richardson.  we've seen this time and time again used against Marcus with some success.  same will be done with White. 

I think he brings improved ball handling and passing to the team over Richardson and a more team-oriented offensive approach than Schroder but he doesn't provide enough of anything to justify the cost of that trade nor the followup to move Schroder.

What I worry about with White is that he started out playing well for the first few games and has been getting worse, which is odd. Not just his scoring either. His defense has looked mediocre and he’s not getting assists. Certain players may not be good 3 point shooters, but they at least have a midrange game. Derrick can’t hit a shot from anywhere outside of the paint right now. It’s concerning.

very concerning.  he should be acclimating to how the C's play and improving.  he's going in the opposite direction.  I'm hoping this is just a blip on the radar and next year he's looking great but I'm really thinking he's going to be an underperformer here until his deal is up.