Celtics trade grades?

[jambr380]

I think it's fair to say that the Cs actively went after White rather than him simply being available, thus the 'overpay' people are talking about. I guess we shall see how it works out, but in scouring the Spurs forums, there are lot of bummed out fans right now - some even wondering why they traded their 'best player' and kept 'empty stats Murray'.

if they'd rather send Murray, I'll accept that swap

Yeah, I just found this point of view rather interesting. Like, if we ever traded Smart, I doubt we'd have several people wondering why we didn't trade 'empty stats Jaylen' instead. And despite the love for Smart, I don't think anybody realistically would call him our best player.

That being said, I see a number of people saying that we are better today than we were yesterday. That seems subjective. We are probably better set up for the near future than before, but Schroder, Richardson, Langford, and Enes is a lot of talent going out the door - even if the fit (outside of Richardson) wasn't the best.

I'll be interested to see what we do in the buy-out/current FA market. Hopefully Brad sets up a couple of those Jabari-type contracts (1+1 w/ later guarantees), so that those players can be traded in the offseason if needed.

[Phantom255x]

I slept on it and still... idk, as much as I like Derrick White I feel it's an overpay

I am somewhat excited though about the buyout market. If we can nab even 1 or possibly 2 guys like Harris/Lopez/Favors to complement this team then boy, I think we could actually have a chance at a deep playoff run so long as we're healthy. No doubt our defense has improved a ton in the past few days 

[Celtics2021]

We know the Celtics are an analytics focused team (as are most teams at this point, but the Celtics have been doing it for longer).  Some of the analytics LOVE Derrick White.  Hoopshype did a survey of front office executives in the pre-season about their favorite publicly available advanced rankings.  Four rankings were deemed by at least one executive to be their favorite/one that they turn to first when evaluating.  All of the top ones had something in common, that being that they relied more on what happens when the player is on the court, take into account lineups, etc., as opposed to only being box-score dependent.  Those rankings were RAPTOR, EPM, DPM, and LEBRON.

Of the 321 players with at least 500 minutes so far this year (to avoid small sample-size issues), White ranks as the following:

RAPTOR: 25th
EPM: 24th
DPM: 50th
LEBRON: 67th

There's a bit of disagreement there.  Two metrics think we got a borderline All-Star.  The other two indicate a solid starter.  The pick swap in 2028 is probably an overpay for a solid starter, although the rest of the package is good, especially given that the contract is reasonable and has 3.5 years left.  But if the metrics that have him as a top-25 player?  That's a steal.  I'm pretty sure the Celtics have their own proprietary metrics, but my guess is they have White somewhere between the 24th and 67th best player, and probably towards the higher end of that.  Combined with the fact that his style of play fits in very well with what the Celtics are trying to run, it's easy to see why they made the deal they did.

[ScoobyDoo]

I second this from PAOBoston, 100%.  Like he said "Today was a good day", Stevens messed around and got a triple double...

A

The Cs got much better. And got under the luxury tax. Got rid of dead weight (Kanter, Langford, Fernando, Schroder) and sold high on Richardson for a good two way combo guard signed under contract long term. Theis provides good big man depth and Kanter is useless defensively so Horford can get a breather.

Cs fan are hilarious. The last few years, everyone has been upset about not including late 1st rounders and Trader Brad just throwing them around to make deals. Cs have numerous tradeable contracts for the offseason as well.

Today was a good day.

[Roy H.]

The last few years, everyone has been upset about not including late 1st rounders

Where's the late first rounder in yesterday's deals?  I haven't seen anybody complain about the idea of including a late first.

[keevsnick]

I said "C".

I think they paid a little more than market value, lets say 110%, for White. Then I think they took back a guy in Theis on a negative value but not horrific contract who also doesn't really have a clear role on this team when everyone is healthy. Didn't get that move.

All that said they got better, so its not a disaster.

[Roy H.]

We know the Celtics are an analytics focused team (as are most teams at this point, but the Celtics have been doing it for longer).  Some of the analytics LOVE Derrick White.  Hoopshype did a survey of front office executives in the pre-season about their favorite publicly available advanced rankings.  Four rankings were deemed by at least one executive to be their favorite/one that they turn to first when evaluating.  All of the top ones had something in common, that being that they relied more on what happens when the player is on the court, take into account lineups, etc., as opposed to only being box-score dependent.  Those rankings were RAPTOR, EPM, DPM, and LEBRON.

Of the 321 players with at least 500 minutes so far this year (to avoid small sample-size issues), White ranks as the following:

RAPTOR: 25th
EPM: 24th
DPM: 50th
LEBRON: 67th

There's a bit of disagreement there.  Two metrics think we got a borderline All-Star.  The other two indicate a solid starter.  The pick swap in 2028 is probably an overpay for a solid starter, although the rest of the package is good, especially given that the contract is reasonable and has 3.5 years left.  But if the metrics that have him as a top-25 player?  That's a steal.  I'm pretty sure the Celtics have their own proprietary metrics, but my guess is they have White somewhere between the 24th and 67th best player, and probably towards the higher end of that.  Combined with the fact that his style of play fits in very well with what the Celtics are trying to run, it's easy to see why they made the deal they did.

I like White, and think he does a lot of good things on the court.

But, some front offices rely on those ridiculous metrics?  If they don't have their own proprietary software and video analysts, they're doing it wrong. 

[LilRip]

I think White plays “winning basketball” (lol where have we heard this one) and Theis is a really good back up. I don’t think it fixed our roster balance or anything but I think we walked away with the most talented player (Derrick White) and we cashed in on Schroder (who was likely as good as gone this offseason anyway)

So a B for me. Solid value but nothing outstanding. I really do like the talent upgrade though. I hope there’s something bigger in the works this offseason

[Celtics2021]

The last few years, everyone has been upset about not including late 1st rounders

Where's the late first rounder in yesterday's deals?  I haven't seen anybody complain about the idea of including a late first.

This year’s pick is expected to be a late first, depending on your definition of late of course, but it’s currently tied for 18-19th, 3.5 games behind being tied for 23rd to 26th.

[LilRip]

The last few years, everyone has been upset about not including late 1st rounders

Where's the late first rounder in yesterday's deals?  I haven't seen anybody complain about the idea of including a late first.

This year’s pick is expected to be a late first, depending on your definition of late of course, but it’s currently tied for 18-19th, 3.5 games behind being tied for 23rd to 26th.

Is 18th late? Seems like a decent pick to me which makes me sad that we gave it up. The lottery is 1-14. Picks 15-19 are just outside the lottery.

If the C’s continue their streak and get that pick down to the mid 20’s somehow, then I’m not sad about losing the 25-30th pick

[ozgod]

In an interview with Jay King of the Athletic, Brad has denied he doesn't care about draft picks. He just thinks that Derrick White was worth the pick and pick swap.

White worth the pick and pick swap: Stevens

Since taking over as Celtics president of basketball operations, Stevens has now traded first-round picks in consecutive seasons. Before moving a 2022 pick for White, the team gave the Thunder a 2021 first-round selection to take on Kemba Walker’s contract over the offseason.

It may seem like Stevens doesn’t believe draft picks hold a lot of value.

“But no,” he said. “I really value the picks.”

The Celtics just believe White was worth the price. They think he can make a difference this season and beyond.

“I thought all year that what we really needed to continue to focus on was adding guys that really know how to play,” Stevens said, “that make the right basketball decisions and really have a great self-awareness to do what they do best. And accentuate our best players.”

https://theathletic.com/3125209/2022/02/11/celtics-want-skill-and-savvy-for-open-roster-spots-derrick-whites-fit-with-core-5-takeaways-from-brad-stevens/

[seancally]

Stevens is a guy who wants to build a team with winning, defense-first, share-the-ball culture. Ainge wanted to build a team with stars and didn’t care about culture. The reason the Ubuntu Celtics had a winning culture was because of KG, full stop. This move is in line with that. Stevens wants ti build Celtic Culture. He wants a team that is a perennial contender for top defense, that plays “the right way” on offense, that is accountable and that wins. We know Heat Culture is a thing, Spurs Culture is a thing.

Culture matters. We have seen talented teams (including past Celtics teams) collapse despite superior talent because they couldn’t figure it out in terms of culture, chemistry and fit. We’ve also seen teams overachieve with adequate talent but superior culture.

If you think Tatum tops out as 1st team all-NBA and/or Finals MVP, and Brown as 3rd team, then that’s a viable path to contention if you also nail the defense and culture.

Plus, we can always go get that third star this off-season. This team is better today and better going forward. And the underpinnings of a real cultural identity are there now, too. Compared to where we were to start the season? That’s huge.

[Roy H.]

The last few years, everyone has been upset about not including late 1st rounders

Where's the late first rounder in yesterday's deals?  I haven't seen anybody complain about the idea of including a late first.

This year’s pick is expected to be a late first, depending on your definition of late of course, but it’s currently tied for 18-19th, 3.5 games behind being tied for 23rd to 26th.

Like LiLRip said, I don't think the 18th pick is late.  And, it's not guaranteed to get better; we could easily lose in the play-in game.  I just think it's a bit disingenuous to call this year's pick -- and particularly a pick six years from now -- as "late round".

[Celtics2021]

The last few years, everyone has been upset about not including late 1st rounders

Where's the late first rounder in yesterday's deals?  I haven't seen anybody complain about the idea of including a late first.

This year’s pick is expected to be a late first, depending on your definition of late of course, but it’s currently tied for 18-19th, 3.5 games behind being tied for 23rd to 26th.

Like LiLRip said, I don't think the 18th pick is late.  And, it's not guaranteed to get better; we could easily lose in the play-in game.  I just think it's a bit disingenuous to call this year's pick -- and particularly a pick six years from now -- as "late round".

I disagree that it's disingenuous.  The Celtics made trades yesterday that improved this year's team, and in doing so, traded this year's pick.  Yes, it has a little protection on it so that if the Celtics slip and fall and then subsequently win the lottery, they're not kicking themselves for years.  But I think both the Celtics and the Spurs value this year's pick as most likely in the 20s, and thus the Spurs asked for and the Celtics assented to additional draft compensation.

I agree with you on the second pick.  That's completely up in the air, as you can't know a single player that will be on either team.  Calling it a late pick or something that likely will never matter is overly presumptuous.  There's a very real possibility that is true, I'd guess at least 50%, but it's certainly not preordained in any fashion.  The Spurs asked for an received a lottery ticket.

[Roy H.]

Jayson Tatum: “I’m very happy to have Theis back.”

Jayson Tatum on Derrick White: "A really high IQ basketball player, very gifted offensively, a great defender, and somebody you just love to have on your team, so I think we’re very lucky to have him.”

A candid Ime Udoka on Derrick White addition to @ZoandBertrand: "He knows what I want. I know him well and we have a lot of similarities in our background. He should come in and fit in seamlessly.”