Grant Williams on the trade block

[PhoSita]

I put Schroder as having the highest trade value.  I think a lot of teams would value his skills. 

if this were true I dont' think the Celts would have been able to afford him this past summer.

You're not wrong, but I remember hearing that Schroder was Chicago's 2nd choice this past summer. If NOP just decided they wanted to keep Lonzo (which they obviously should have), then we might be talking about Dennis making ~$15M/yr right now and not really batting an eye. I don't think we'll ever be talking about Grant making that much money, but I'd love to see him advance to that point.

thing is teams often get suckered into paying the Dennis Schroders of the world way too much money

guys like Grant Williams sometimes get a bit overpaid but usually not to a crazy degree. the reason that Grant is likely a solid trade asset right now is that he is still on his rookie deal and provides value without needing the ball, so he could fit on almost any team and in many different kinds of lineups.  he's also not likely to get super overpaid once he hits free agency because there's very little chance that any team could talk itself into thinking he's got potential as a volume scorer. 

Grant is what he is, knows what he is, and plays within that role. There's a lot of value in that.


Schroder is not as good as he thinks he is.  That sort of player is best to have on a short, bargain deal.  Let him try to play his way into a big contract and then let somebody else make that mistake.

[Vermont Green]

I put Schroder as having the highest trade value.  I think a lot of teams would value his skills. 

if this were true I dont' think the Celts would have been able to afford him this past summer.

You're not wrong, but I remember hearing that Schroder was Chicago's 2nd choice this past summer. If NOP just decided they wanted to keep Lonzo (which they obviously should have), then we might be talking about Dennis making ~$15M/yr right now and not really batting an eye. I don't think we'll ever be talking about Grant making that much money, but I'd love to see him advance to that point.

thing is teams often get suckered into paying the Dennis Schroders of the world way too much money

guys like Grant Williams sometimes get a bit overpaid but usually not to a crazy degree. the reason that Grant is likely a solid trade asset right now is that he is still on his rookie deal and provides value without needing the ball, so he could fit on almost any team and in many different kinds of lineups.  he's also not likely to get super overpaid once he hits free agency because there's very little chance that any team could talk itself into thinking he's got potential as a volume scorer. 

Grant is what he is, knows what he is, and plays within that role. There's a lot of value in that.


Schroder is not as good as he thinks he is.  That sort of player is best to have on a short, bargain deal.  Let him try to play his way into a big contract and then let somebody else make that mistake.

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams.  You could argue that Shroder at $5.9M is a worse contract than GWill at $2.6 and that may be true, I don't know.  But Schroder at $5.9M is not a bad contract by any means.  This is just an opinion but I feel we can trade Schroder more easily and get more back for him than GWill.  And I think more importantly, if we trade Schroder, he is more easily backfilled based on our current roster than GWill.

Williams has been playing 23 min/gm for us this season.  We don't really have another option for those minutes.  That is more minutes than I would like to see a player of his ability playing but he is the best we have right now for that role.

[Celtics2021]

I put Schroder as having the highest trade value.  I think a lot of teams would value his skills. 

if this were true I dont' think the Celts would have been able to afford him this past summer.

You're not wrong, but I remember hearing that Schroder was Chicago's 2nd choice this past summer. If NOP just decided they wanted to keep Lonzo (which they obviously should have), then we might be talking about Dennis making ~$15M/yr right now and not really batting an eye. I don't think we'll ever be talking about Grant making that much money, but I'd love to see him advance to that point.

thing is teams often get suckered into paying the Dennis Schroders of the world way too much money

guys like Grant Williams sometimes get a bit overpaid but usually not to a crazy degree. the reason that Grant is likely a solid trade asset right now is that he is still on his rookie deal and provides value without needing the ball, so he could fit on almost any team and in many different kinds of lineups.  he's also not likely to get super overpaid once he hits free agency because there's very little chance that any team could talk itself into thinking he's got potential as a volume scorer. 

Grant is what he is, knows what he is, and plays within that role. There's a lot of value in that.


Schroder is not as good as he thinks he is.  That sort of player is best to have on a short, bargain deal.  Let him try to play his way into a big contract and then let somebody else make that mistake.

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams.  You could argue that Shroder at $5.9M is a worse contract than GWill at $2.6 and that may be true, I don't know.  But Schroder at $5.9M is not a bad contract by any means.  This is just an opinion but I feel we can trade Schroder more easily and get more back for him than GWill.  And I think more importantly, if we trade Schroder, he is more easily backfilled based on our current roster than GWill.

Williams has been playing 23 min/gm for us this season.  We don't really have another option for those minutes.  That is more minutes than I would like to see a player of his ability playing but he is the best we have right now for that role.

Schröder might be “better at basketball”, but Grant Williams is the more useful basketball player.  Schröder is very ball-dominant, but compared to other ball-dominant players, he’s not very good, and he can’t share the court with them.  Grant is more versatile, because he can shoot the three and guard multiple positions, meaning he fits better into more lineups.  When Schröder is out there, yes, he can be the best player on the court, and that’s not Grant.  But Grant can be part of better lineups on a good team, and thus he’s the more valuable player to have.

[PhoSita]

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams. 

there are soooo many guards in the league who can put up stats similar to Schroder if given the ball and the minutes

it's actually pretty hard to find guys who can defend 3-5 at least a little bit and hit corner threes at a high rate.

[Vermont Green]

Schröder might be “better at basketball”, but Grant Williams is the more useful basketball player.  Schröder is very ball-dominant, but compared to other ball-dominant players, he’s not very good, and he can’t share the court with them.  Grant is more versatile, because he can shoot the three and guard multiple positions, meaning he fits better into more lineups.  When Schröder is out there, yes, he can be the best player on the court, and that’s not Grant.  But Grant can be part of better lineups on a good team, and thus he’s the more valuable player to have.

I said Schroder is a better player.  You seem to agree with that based on your statements.  Better at basketball is the point.  Grant is extremely versatile which is valuable.  He is having a break out year, hitting 3s out of his mind, averaging 7 pts in 23 min (meant to be sarcastic).  He is also grossly undersized and under athletic for his position.

I am not trying to diss Grant.  And there are things I don't like about Schroder's game.  People are making fair points about the players but it is not changing my opinion that Schroder is the better player, better at basketball, however you want to say it.  Grant can be a useful bench player.  Schroder is simply better than that.

[Celtics2021]

Schröder might be “better at basketball”, but Grant Williams is the more useful basketball player.  Schröder is very ball-dominant, but compared to other ball-dominant players, he’s not very good, and he can’t share the court with them.  Grant is more versatile, because he can shoot the three and guard multiple positions, meaning he fits better into more lineups.  When Schröder is out there, yes, he can be the best player on the court, and that’s not Grant.  But Grant can be part of better lineups on a good team, and thus he’s the more valuable player to have.

I said Schroder is a better player.  You seem to agree with that based on your statements.  Better at basketball is the point.  Grant is extremely versatile which is valuable.  He is having a break out year, hitting 3s out of his mind, averaging 7 pts in 23 min (meant to be sarcastic).  He is also grossly undersized and under athletic for his position.

I am not trying to diss Grant.  And there are things I don't like about Schroder's game.  People are making fair points about the players but it is not changing my opinion that Schroder is the better player, better at basketball, however you want to say it.  Grant can be a useful bench player.  Schroder is simply better than that.

I don't agree with you that Schroder is better than Grant, because I think Grant's understanding of defense makes him superior to Schroder, despite the latter's ability to dribble all over the court.  But my point is that putting that aside, Grant is valued by teams more than for just his contract.  He's more useful, thus more playable.

[Vermont Green]

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams. 

there are soooo many guards in the league who can put up stats similar to Schroder if given the ball and the minutes

it's actually pretty hard to find guys who can defend 3-5 at least a little bit and hit corner threes at a high rate.

You are right that there is nothing terribly unique about Schroder.  There are other players around that can man the point and score 14 per game while playing passable defense.  Schroder dribbles too much.  That is my only beef with Schroder.  Otherwise, he is a pretty good starting-level PG.

Grant in his career averages 0.8 3pt makes per game.  This year he has exploded and is making 1.5 per game.  Grant is an undersized PF who gives you 7 pts in 23 minutes.  He can hit the 3 but only when in the corner and only when wide open.  That is all fine.  Better to hit 1-2 wide open 3 per game than not.  Also, we really need him right now because we don't have any other viable option.

[Celtics4ever]

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams. 

there are soooo many guards in the league who can put up stats similar to Schroder if given the ball and the minutes

it's actually pretty hard to find guys who can defend 3-5 at least a little bit and hit corner threes at a high rate.

This is true but almost everyone would take Schroder over Grant, league wide.

[PhoSita]

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams. 

there are soooo many guards in the league who can put up stats similar to Schroder if given the ball and the minutes

it's actually pretty hard to find guys who can defend 3-5 at least a little bit and hit corner threes at a high rate.

This is true but almost everyone would take Schroder over Grant, league wide.

if you have a decent point guard situation then no, there's no chance you would


it's a lot easier to improve your team by playing Grant Williams 15-20 minutes a night than it is to slot Schroder into your offense unless you're lacking somebody to fill minutes at the 1

[nickagneta]

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams. 

there are soooo many guards in the league who can put up stats similar to Schroder if given the ball and the minutes

it's actually pretty hard to find guys who can defend 3-5 at least a little bit and hit corner threes at a high rate.

This is true but almost everyone would take Schroder over Grant, league wide.

No they wouldn't. It's very situational. There are lots of teams with established PG rotations that don't need a Schröder. It's why he landed in Boston's lap so cheaply.

OTOH, there are a bunch of teams that need elite three point shooting and Grant is a 3-4 hybrid with great defensive instincts and amazing BBIQ on top of that shooting.

I would say about half the league would take one over the other. It's not so clear cut that Schröder would be the pick by virtually everyone, as you seem to think. Is Schröder the better player? Most likely. But Grant probably fills a greater need for most teams than Schröder does.

I think your anti-Grant bias might be showing through on this one.

[smokeablount]

All this is true but the reality is that Schroder is a better player than GWilliams. 

there are soooo many guards in the league who can put up stats similar to Schroder if given the ball and the minutes

it's actually pretty hard to find guys who can defend 3-5 at least a little bit and hit corner threes at a high rate.

This is true but almost everyone would take Schroder over Grant, league wide.

No they wouldn't. It's very situational. There are lots of teams with established PG rotations that don't need a Schröder. It's why he landed in Boston's lap so cheaply.

OTOH, there are a bunch of teams that need elite three point shooting and Grant is a 3-4 hybrid with great defensive instincts and amazing BBIQ on top of that shooting.

I would say about half the league would take one over the other. It's not so clear cut that Schröder would be the pick by virtually everyone, as you seem to think. Is Schröder the better player? Most likely. But Grant probably fills a greater need for most teams than Schröder does.

I think your anti-Grant bias might be showing through on this one.

I agree with this. Grant is a better contributor to more playoff teams but Shroeder is more likely to score a 10M+ a year contract.

[boscel33]

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-the-reason-celtics-are-balking-at-bucks-dennis-schroder-trade-demands/

The Bucks apparently want him as part of an expanded Schroder-Divincenzo deal.

Interesting development.  I can see MIL wanting GWill, he wouldn't play much there, but he might come off the bench and hit a big 3 for them.  It is tough for the Celtics to trade GWill, not because he is so great, but because the "next man up", Bruno Fernando, is even worse.  If MIL wants a bench PF, they can have Bruno, he can sit next to Semi on the bench.

I think GWill and Bruno are two different players.  GWill was drafted and is expected to be an outside, 3PT guy, Bruno is not that guy. 

No one is going to say this about GWill:  Bruno is big, strong and lean with an NBA ready body. At the Combine, he measured 6’10.25 (with shoes) with a wing span of 7’3.25. He weighed in at 237 pounds with a body fat of 5.4%. He possesses a relatively rare combination of size, length and athleticism.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/5/30/18640565/bruno-fernando-atlanta-hawks-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-maryland

If it's Dennis, GWill for Donte, there has to be a pick or another player (cheap) coming back too.

No one will say this about Bruno: He is a rotation player. Great measurements don't equal good player. Bruno is not a good player.

Agreed, and Grant IS big, strong and lean (recently) and with an NBA ready body.  He's one of the stronger players in the entire NBA.  I recall he came out #1 in some strength measure, perhaps dead-lift.

No way GWill dunks like Bruno did last night.  The two measurables are not comparable.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2841060-bruno-fernandos-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-analysis-of-the-76ers-pick

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2841080-grant-williams-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-analysis-of-celtics-pick

[nickagneta]

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-the-reason-celtics-are-balking-at-bucks-dennis-schroder-trade-demands/

The Bucks apparently want him as part of an expanded Schroder-Divincenzo deal.

Interesting development.  I can see MIL wanting GWill, he wouldn't play much there, but he might come off the bench and hit a big 3 for them.  It is tough for the Celtics to trade GWill, not because he is so great, but because the "next man up", Bruno Fernando, is even worse.  If MIL wants a bench PF, they can have Bruno, he can sit next to Semi on the bench.

I think GWill and Bruno are two different players.  GWill was drafted and is expected to be an outside, 3PT guy, Bruno is not that guy. 

No one is going to say this about GWill:  Bruno is big, strong and lean with an NBA ready body. At the Combine, he measured 6’10.25 (with shoes) with a wing span of 7’3.25. He weighed in at 237 pounds with a body fat of 5.4%. He possesses a relatively rare combination of size, length and athleticism.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/5/30/18640565/bruno-fernando-atlanta-hawks-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-maryland

If it's Dennis, GWill for Donte, there has to be a pick or another player (cheap) coming back too.

No one will say this about Bruno: He is a rotation player. Great measurements don't equal good player. Bruno is not a good player.

Agreed, and Grant IS big, strong and lean (recently) and with an NBA ready body.  He's one of the stronger players in the entire NBA.  I recall he came out #1 in some strength measure, perhaps dead-lift.

No way GWill dunks like Bruno did last night.  The two measurables are not comparable.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2841060-bruno-fernandos-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-analysis-of-the-76ers-pick

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2841080-grant-williams-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-analysis-of-celtics-pick

Who cares if Grant can't dunk like Bruno? There is SOOOOOO much more to basketball than dunking, and Grant is better at virtually every other of those things than Bruno.

[Celtics4ever]

I would like to see Bruno get some minutes, I would bet he could out rebound Grant, Nick, but that is about it.  Dunk and Rebound.   He might defend better in the post.   But Grant does everything else better.

Harold Miner says hello since your bringing up dunking as the most popular player metric.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/harold-miner-how-the-baby-jordan-tag-ruined-his-career

I don't think Grant is on the block

[boscel33]

https://clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-the-reason-celtics-are-balking-at-bucks-dennis-schroder-trade-demands/

The Bucks apparently want him as part of an expanded Schroder-Divincenzo deal.

Interesting development.  I can see MIL wanting GWill, he wouldn't play much there, but he might come off the bench and hit a big 3 for them.  It is tough for the Celtics to trade GWill, not because he is so great, but because the "next man up", Bruno Fernando, is even worse.  If MIL wants a bench PF, they can have Bruno, he can sit next to Semi on the bench.

I think GWill and Bruno are two different players.  GWill was drafted and is expected to be an outside, 3PT guy, Bruno is not that guy. 

No one is going to say this about GWill:  Bruno is big, strong and lean with an NBA ready body. At the Combine, he measured 6’10.25 (with shoes) with a wing span of 7’3.25. He weighed in at 237 pounds with a body fat of 5.4%. He possesses a relatively rare combination of size, length and athleticism.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/5/30/18640565/bruno-fernando-atlanta-hawks-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-maryland

If it's Dennis, GWill for Donte, there has to be a pick or another player (cheap) coming back too.

No one will say this about Bruno: He is a rotation player. Great measurements don't equal good player. Bruno is not a good player.

Agreed, and Grant IS big, strong and lean (recently) and with an NBA ready body.  He's one of the stronger players in the entire NBA.  I recall he came out #1 in some strength measure, perhaps dead-lift.

No way GWill dunks like Bruno did last night.  The two measurables are not comparable.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2841060-bruno-fernandos-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-analysis-of-the-76ers-pick

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2841080-grant-williams-2019-nba-draft-scouting-report-analysis-of-celtics-pick

Who cares if Grant can't dunk like Bruno? There is SOOOOOO much more to basketball than dunking, and Grant is better at virtually every other of those things than Bruno.

You're so correct, read the report, there is so much difference between them.

Examples:

"Fernando will look to follow in Montrezl Harrell's footsteps by becoming one of the game's top energizers. He has the chance to be a force inside who can outmuscle opponents and play through them for dunks and putbacks. Fernando also operates with passion and motor, which will play to his identity."

vs

"Williams has clear limitations that suggest his ceiling isn't high. Some scouts are wary about whether his game can translate. However, he should be able to carve out a role with his defensive effectiveness and toughness. It seems reasonable to expect Williams to eventually extend his shooting range. In between, he'll make good decisions and passes and generate some offense for himself in post-up situations. There are difference between him and PJ Tucker, but Williams could be a similarly valuable role player who doesn't need to score to make an impact."