Poll

You alone decide: should Ime go?

Yes….right now!
21 (21%)
Maybe, but not right now.
33 (33%)
No, not even close to enough time to evaluate him.
38 (38%)
No way, love the guy.
8 (8%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Voting closed: February 23, 2022, 05:45:52 PM

Author Topic: Ime has got to go!  (Read 123976 times)

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Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #525 on: May 12, 2022, 09:06:19 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Can’t blame Ime for not getting rebounds

Yeah, I mean he doesn’t control the lineups or anything… :blank:

Top offense(?) and defense second half of the season....poor play does not mean suddenly the coach forgot what he's doing...

What does that have to do with him not making adjustments in the game yesterday, playing Grant heavy minutes even though he was struggling mightily from the very beginning to the end, instead of playing Theis who was having a great game. Or not getting Horford involved offensively all game or coming up with a terrible play at the end where Smart is taking the last shot… it was horrendous and if you missed all of that, idk what to tell you..
By your logic, Tatum should have been benched in the second half of a whole bunch of games this season and a couple in this series because he struggled badly in the first half of games. What you are calling for is not an adjustment, it's crisis management which, I have been saying for years, is what will lose a coach his locker room, but also get him fired very quickly.

As a coach, you trust your players to bounce back from bad halves or quarters. You take all year building that trust with players and therefore players will player harder knowing they won't be yo-yoed in and out of the lineups and games. They know missing some shots or playing poor defense or missing some rebounds isn't going to adversely affect them and they will be able to work through whatever struggle they are having.

You’re really going to use Jayson Tatum as comparison for Grant Williams? Grant didn’t struggle for half of a game yesterday, he was terrible for the entirety of the game. He’s also not a starting caliber player. Theis, who is a comparable talent was having an excellent game. He did more in his 11 mins than Grant did in 31mins. These are role players, when you have a bench guy playing really well, you should stick with him. They call it, “riding the hot hand.” A coach is supposed adjust and adapt during the game. Ime is not very good at that. It’s like his strategy and planned rotations are etched in stone before the tip off and he will not go away from it regardless of what is going on during the game. That’s not good coaching.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 09:38:54 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #526 on: May 12, 2022, 09:52:58 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Can’t blame Ime for not getting rebounds

Yeah, I mean he doesn’t control the lineups or anything… :blank:

Top offense(?) and defense second half of the season....poor play does not mean suddenly the coach forgot what he's doing...

What does that have to do with him not making adjustments in the game yesterday, playing Grant heavy minutes even though he was struggling mightily from the very beginning to the end, instead of playing Theis who was having a great game. Or not getting Horford involved offensively all game or coming up with a terrible play at the end where Smart is taking the last shot… it was horrendous and if you missed all of that, idk what to tell you..
By your logic, Tatum should have been benched in the second half of a whole bunch of games this season and a couple in this series because he struggled badly in the first half of games. What you are calling for is not an adjustment, it's crisis management which, I have been saying for years, is what will lose a coach his locker room, but also get him fired very quickly.

As a coach, you trust your players to bounce back from bad halves or quarters. You take all year building that trust with players and therefore players will player harder knowing they won't be yo-yoed in and out of the lineups and games. They know missing some shots or playing poor defense or missing some rebounds isn't going to adversely affect them and they will be able to work through whatever struggle they are having.

You’re really going to use Jayson Tatum as comparison for Grant Williams? Grant didn’t struggle for half of a game yesterday, he was terrible for the entirety of the game. He’s also not a starting caliber player. Theis, who is a comparable talent was having an excellent game. He did more in his 11 mins than Grant did in 31mins. These are role players, when you have a bench guy playing really well, you should stick with him. They call it, “riding the hot hand.” A coach is supposed adjust and adapt during the game. Ime is not very good at that. It’s like his strategy and planned rotations are etched in stone before the tip off and he will not go away from it regardless of what is going on during the game. That’s not good coaching.
I beg to differ. Having set rotations and trusting players to overcome rough starts is great coaching. What you are calling adjustments is nothing more than crisis management.

Also, riding the hot hand is for stars or high end scoring starters. You don't ride the hot hand of a guy who is 9th in your rotation. That's ridiculous.

One got a great performance out of Theis for his role. You accept that from low in the rotation guys and be glad. You are assuming Theis continues to hit shots. Bad assumption. Look what Brown did in the 3rd. Lights out. Sat. Got cold. Did almost nothing the rest of the game. The same thing could have, and probably would have happened with Theis. And given Theis' rebounding and defense both in this game and series has been dreadful, I see no issue with letting Grant stay in. His defense has been excellent, especially against Giannis

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #527 on: May 12, 2022, 10:00:14 PM »

Offline pokeKingCurtis

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Can’t blame Ime for not getting rebounds

Yeah, I mean he doesn’t control the lineups or anything… :blank:

Top offense(?) and defense second half of the season....poor play does not mean suddenly the coach forgot what he's doing...

What does that have to do with him not making adjustments in the game yesterday, playing Grant heavy minutes even though he was struggling mightily from the very beginning to the end, instead of playing Theis who was having a great game. Or not getting Horford involved offensively all game or coming up with a terrible play at the end where Smart is taking the last shot… it was horrendous and if you missed all of that, idk what to tell you..
By your logic, Tatum should have been benched in the second half of a whole bunch of games this season and a couple in this series because he struggled badly in the first half of games. What you are calling for is not an adjustment, it's crisis management which, I have been saying for years, is what will lose a coach his locker room, but also get him fired very quickly.

As a coach, you trust your players to bounce back from bad halves or quarters. You take all year building that trust with players and therefore players will player harder knowing they won't be yo-yoed in and out of the lineups and games. They know missing some shots or playing poor defense or missing some rebounds isn't going to adversely affect them and they will be able to work through whatever struggle they are having.

You’re really going to use Jayson Tatum as comparison for Grant Williams? Grant didn’t struggle for half of a game yesterday, he was terrible for the entirety of the game. He’s also not a starting caliber player. Theis, who is a comparable talent was having an excellent game. He did more in his 11 mins than Grant did in 31mins. These are role players, when you have a bench guy playing really well, you should stick with him. They call it, “riding the hot hand.” A coach is supposed adjust and adapt during the game. Ime is not very good at that. It’s like his strategy and planned rotations are etched in stone before the tip off and he will not go away from it regardless of what is going on during the game. That’s not good coaching.
I beg to differ. Having set rotations and trusting players to overcome rough starts is great coaching. What you are calling adjustments is nothing more than crisis management.

Also, riding the hot hand is for stars or high end scoring starters. You don't ride the hot hand of a guy who is 9th in your rotation. That's ridiculous.

One got a great performance out of Theis for his role. You accept that from low in the rotation guys and be glad. You are assuming Theis continues to hit shots. Bad assumption. Look what Brown did in the 3rd. Lights out. Sat. Got cold. Did almost nothing the rest of the game. The same thing could have, and probably would have happened with Theis. And given Theis' rebounding and defense both in this game and series has been dreadful, I see no issue with letting Grant stay in. His defense has been excellent, especially against Giannis

Need a Grant appreciation thread.

Shut down Bam the year before.

Doing a number of Giannis.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #528 on: May 12, 2022, 10:27:43 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Can’t blame Ime for not getting rebounds

Yeah, I mean he doesn’t control the lineups or anything… :blank:

Top offense(?) and defense second half of the season....poor play does not mean suddenly the coach forgot what he's doing...

What does that have to do with him not making adjustments in the game yesterday, playing Grant heavy minutes even though he was struggling mightily from the very beginning to the end, instead of playing Theis who was having a great game. Or not getting Horford involved offensively all game or coming up with a terrible play at the end where Smart is taking the last shot… it was horrendous and if you missed all of that, idk what to tell you..
By your logic, Tatum should have been benched in the second half of a whole bunch of games this season and a couple in this series because he struggled badly in the first half of games. What you are calling for is not an adjustment, it's crisis management which, I have been saying for years, is what will lose a coach his locker room, but also get him fired very quickly.

As a coach, you trust your players to bounce back from bad halves or quarters. You take all year building that trust with players and therefore players will player harder knowing they won't be yo-yoed in and out of the lineups and games. They know missing some shots or playing poor defense or missing some rebounds isn't going to adversely affect them and they will be able to work through whatever struggle they are having.

You’re really going to use Jayson Tatum as comparison for Grant Williams? Grant didn’t struggle for half of a game yesterday, he was terrible for the entirety of the game. He’s also not a starting caliber player. Theis, who is a comparable talent was having an excellent game. He did more in his 11 mins than Grant did in 31mins. These are role players, when you have a bench guy playing really well, you should stick with him. They call it, “riding the hot hand.” A coach is supposed adjust and adapt during the game. Ime is not very good at that. It’s like his strategy and planned rotations are etched in stone before the tip off and he will not go away from it regardless of what is going on during the game. That’s not good coaching.
I beg to differ. Having set rotations and trusting players to overcome rough starts is great coaching. What you are calling adjustments is nothing more than crisis management.

Also, riding the hot hand is for stars or high end scoring starters. You don't ride the hot hand of a guy who is 9th in your rotation. That's ridiculous.

One got a great performance out of Theis for his role. You accept that from low in the rotation guys and be glad. You are assuming Theis continues to hit shots. Bad assumption. Look what Brown did in the 3rd. Lights out. Sat. Got cold. Did almost nothing the rest of the game. The same thing could have, and probably would have happened with Theis. And given Theis' rebounding and defense both in this game and series has been dreadful, I see no issue with letting Grant stay in. His defense has been excellent, especially against Giannis

Theis is part of the rotation. He might play significantly less than Grant, but he’s still part of the rotation. So you think the minutes for bench players should be predetermined and that the guys shouldn’t be able to earn court time by playing well? If a role player is having an off night and another is doing well, you shouldn’t go with the one doing well, because that wasn’t the plan going in and you have to trust the players otherwise it’s just crisis management.

You also don’t ride the hot hand for the 9th guy off the bench? So if Pritchard is going off, we should cap him at his 8 mins a game and put White in because you have to trust your guys. Also, according to you, a player like Pritchard can’t get a hot hand since he’s not a star. Ridiculous.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #529 on: May 13, 2022, 03:47:36 AM »

Offline ozgod

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So Al had 30 points last game, shooting 11-14 from the field and 5-7 from 3pt. He was by far the most efficient scorer for the C’s. Tonight he has 7 shot attempts. How does that happen?? In the 8 games of this postseason, Horford is shooting 56.5% from the field, 53.5% from 3pt and 80% from the line. I triple checked, not a typo: 56.5% from the field, 53.5% from 3pt and 80% from the line. Someone seriously needs to let Ime know, because he clearly doesn’t. How do you not get a player putting up those kind of numbers involved in the offense EVERY game? Again, this is just bad coaching.

I'm just curious, why is it you think it's always the coach's plan/fault when certain players get the ball or not? I don't think Ime is the guy holding the Xbox controller deciding "I'm not going to let Al get the ball". Sometimes it's on Al to call for the ball or get himself in a position where he can score. Sometimes it's on the players to decide to get their teammates involved. Sometimes it's how the other team's coverages work out, clearly Milwaukee didn't want Al to do another special on them. Sometimes it's just the way the ball bounces and doesn't find people.

The players aren't puppets on strings, they need to ask themselves if certain players aren't getting the ball in scoring positions. They're the ones on the court with the ball.

This reminds me of the Kyrie Irving comments when he was talking about the Nets not really needing a coach and that he, KD and Harden could just run the show.

Do teams not have a playbook? Or are the players free to audible out there on every possession and do whatever they want? I was under the impression that the coach is the one creating/calling the plays, strategizing, setting lineups, and making adjustments/substitutions throughout the game. If he’s not doing that than I guess Kyrie would be correct.

There's a difference between not needing a coach and understanding that there are many variables that go into a team's performance. The way I always saw it, the coach sets the blueprint for the style of play the team wants to use, they establish some general sets and patterns of play to use, and he picks the rotation of players that he wants to execute that, and he works with the assistant coaches to train the players to do that, and as he has command responsibility he has to hold the team accountable for their performances. I would expect that during the game he would manage the substitution process to determine who should be on the floor based on which combinations work best, and to reinforce to the players the style of play they want to play with and to address any significant deviation from that.

But in the ebb and flow of the game I expect the players to do a lot of that in game management themselves. That's historically been the role of the point guard, to get people involved and to run the sets. Ime can remind them, he can threaten them during timeouts, but at this level the players shouldn't have to be told to "get Al involved" or having to be told what to do all the time like an NFL coach calling up plays every down. Al needs to get himself involved. Or if they are guarding him a certain way he can run decoys, he can set screens, there's other things he can do to get involved.

It's just a difference in philosophy on coaching I think...the coach obviously has command responsibility, but I think his circle of influence shrinks when the ball is actually on the court and the players have to take a lot more responsibility. Other people may feel that he should still be able to actively machinate from the sidelines even while the ball is being dribbled.

The reason I'm reluctant to blame Ime for this is because this isn't the first game where I've seen Al tend to go passive. He's a little like Hayward in that respect, because he's not a selfish player, he's never going to yell for the ball. So the ball can often pass him by. He had 58 touches last game based on NBA.com, just below Jaylen, but most of them were DHOs. Also, he was guarded a lot more tightly to make sure he wasn't able to pop for open 3s like he did in game 4.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #530 on: May 13, 2022, 10:07:28 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Al was clearly feeling it in game 4, but this is his FGA during the playoffs

13, 10, 2, 9, 11, 9, 17, 14, 7

He is all over the map and those are all pretty considerably higher than the regular season.  I mean in his 69 games, he only had 13 or more FGA's in 4 games.  He has done it in 3 of 9 playoff games. 

Al is not, and never has been, a go to scorer type player.  He gets buckets in the flow of the game.  He isn't a guy you call plays for because that isn't his strength. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #531 on: May 13, 2022, 11:50:40 AM »

Offline Rikibellevie

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Al was clearly feeling it in game 4, but this is his FGA during the playoffs

13, 10, 2, 9, 11, 9, 17, 14, 7

He is all over the map and those are all pretty considerably higher than the regular season.  I mean in his 69 games, he only had 13 or more FGA's in 4 games.  He has done it in 3 of 9 playoff games. 

Al is not, and never has been, a go to scorer type player.  He gets buckets in the flow of the game.  He isn't a guy you call plays for because that isn't his strength.


Big Al feels it may be the last dance, the last shot to get a title with the team of his career; at least as as a titulary. He is playing his best, his expérience, his perfect profesionalism and work éthique pay during this PO. Hope he transmit and still will next year teach this winning mentality to the Jays and to the team which is still a little young and Green.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #532 on: May 13, 2022, 01:09:13 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Al was clearly feeling it in game 4, but this is his FGA during the playoffs

13, 10, 2, 9, 11, 9, 17, 14, 7

He is all over the map and those are all pretty considerably higher than the regular season.  I mean in his 69 games, he only had 13 or more FGA's in 4 games.  He has done it in 3 of 9 playoff games. 

Al is not, and never has been, a go to scorer type player.  He gets buckets in the flow of the game.  He isn't a guy you call plays for because that isn't his strength.

I agree, but they don’t need him to be a go to scorer. They need him to be a 3rd option, since he is significantly better than Smart and Rob is not an offensive threat other than for lobs. Horford passes up a lot of wide open shots. If the C’s can get Al 3 shots per quarter and let Tatum and Brown carry most of the load, I think the offense would be better. Smart is averaging 12.5 shot per game in the post season and his assists are down. That’s just too many shots for a below average shooter. Tatum is leading the team in APG at 6.1. Would like to see Smart be more of a facilitator and get the shot attempts down to 8-10 per game. I think the C’s would be much better off.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #533 on: May 13, 2022, 02:40:47 PM »

Offline wiley

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Can’t blame Ime for not getting rebounds

Yeah, I mean he doesn’t control the lineups or anything… :blank:

Top offense(?) and defense second half of the season....poor play does not mean suddenly the coach forgot what he's doing...

What does that have to do with him not making adjustments in the game yesterday, playing Grant heavy minutes even though he was struggling mightily from the very beginning to the end, instead of playing Theis who was having a great game. Or not getting Horford involved offensively all game or coming up with a terrible play at the end where Smart is taking the last shot… it was horrendous and if you missed all of that, idk what to tell you..

So, since you're giving so much power to the coach to control the outcome, I guess you must be crediting Ime for the 14 point lead midway through the 4th quarter against the defending champs.
As far as I remember, neither Theis nor Grant was on the floor when that lead fell apart, it was Derek White.  Having Derek White in their in the 4th seems to be an example of going with what worked previously, as it helped lead to a win in Milwaukee.  Thus the coach was doing what worked before in recent history, which you seem to suggest is wise coaching. 

The loss of that lead is not on Ime.  Second guessing the smaller stuff is so easy...

I personally think he could have gone with Grant or Theis over White, as I am a little nervous with White, and I didn't like White's turnover...but I'm not about to pretend that I know the outcome had he not gone with White...

Nick is right, a coach has to earn and develop trust...the players have to perform.  Period.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #534 on: May 15, 2022, 06:58:25 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Like the team, Ime has been much better in the second half of the season. If he can get the C’s to the conference finals, I will be sold on him.

Well, time to give credit where credit is due. I’ve been critical of Ime at times, but he’s now taken the C’s to the conference finals as a first time head coach. He took over a talented team, but still have to tip your cap for the defensive improvement and he seems to get the best out of his players. Still some room for improvement, but I think he is the right coach for this team for at least the next 2-3 years and possibly beyond.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #535 on: May 15, 2022, 06:59:24 PM »

Offline BringToughnessBack

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This thread aging well! 😂

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #536 on: May 15, 2022, 07:00:13 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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This thread aging well! 😂
as so many "hot take" threads do.  ;D
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
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Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #537 on: May 15, 2022, 07:00:17 PM »

Online Phantom255x

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Yeah Ime needs to go... and get himself a nice dinner for tonight!  ;D
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Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #538 on: May 15, 2022, 07:03:23 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Interesting stat.

Quote
Kyle Neubeck
@KyleNeubeck
Ime Udoka will be the third guy since 2016 to leave an assistant gig on the Sixers' bench and make a conference finals in the first two years of their head coaching gig


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Ime has got to go!
« Reply #539 on: May 15, 2022, 07:09:31 PM »

Kiorrik

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Thread should have AT LEAST 21 apologies.