Indiana moving toward rebuild, open to trade talks on LeVert, Sabonis, Turner

[pokeKingCurtis]

Nesmith or Romeo, three #1s, two pick swaps for Sabonis?

.... the moment you realize missing on picks makes a big difference. Could have taken 4-5 guys over Nosmith who would've improved our chances at a trade like this.

Even when you win the NBA lottery, you're still playing a game of chance.

....a homer Csblog argument for over a very long time because we've struggled outside the Top 3 in the draft.,

Yeah right. Total homer argument. It is well known that the Celtics are terrible at picking, and really, everyone else is hitting jackpot after jackpot consistently because drafting beyond pick 10 is super easy and a totally 100% sure deal.

Ah, the standard defense. It's like a warm blanket on this blog.

You're literally bringing nothing to the discussion except "uh u stupid".

At least I went out my way to find data and gave you credit.

Maybe try being a bit less of a negative force.

Oh come on. If the Cs had made a better pick than Nesmith, they'd be in a better position to trade for Sabonis -- simple as that. Blaming the draft like its a roulette game is homerism.

Being objective is not a "negative force."

Note how I use the quotes properly. I dunno what Uh U Stupid is about but it didn't come from me.

Maybe don't start your argumenting by saying someone's being a homer.

Also, statistics backed me up.

Also, saying "yeah but if we drafted someone better than Nesmith we'd get better return" is a bit ... I don't know how to say this. It's kinda like saying "if I had $10 I'd have more than if I had $5." Like, yeah, okay. My whole point was that finding the $10 is purely chance.

Stats backed me up on it so call me a homer all you want, I'm right.

The warm blanket thing was also the most useless thing to say in a discussion ever. What did that add to the discussion huh? Did you expect everyone to go "oh yeah, good point, we now suddenly agree with you"?

No, you were just trying to rile someone up a lil.

That's what I mean by being a negative force.

Man, someone has their blood up. You just rip me broadly for objecting to the Cs recent draft record as the luck of the draw. Seriously?

And what stats are you referring to? I don’t see any. Do stats back up drafting Nesmith over Anthony, Maxey, Bey, Quickley, Bane or others? Nope.

How about any of the articles posted by Sophomore?

[nickagneta]

Id be okay with

Smart, TL, Langford and Juancho
for
Brogdon and Turner.

Feel Brogdon and Turner fit better than TL and Smart. Pacers don't lose out in talent much. They add Langford and cut salary in a year with the deal. I wouldn't add a 1st but 2nds are fine if needed.

I doubt a rebuilding team would have any interest in a 27-28 year old Marcus Smart who is still owed over $75 million over the next 4 seasons.

Its why my trade idea included Horford. If the deal is done before the draft, Horford could be cut giving some salary relief to Indy as they wouldn't have to take on any long term money

[todd_days_41]

Nesmith or Romeo, three #1s, two pick swaps for Sabonis?

.... the moment you realize missing on picks makes a big difference. Could have taken 4-5 guys over Nosmith who would've improved our chances at a trade like this.

Even when you win the NBA lottery, you're still playing a game of chance.

....a homer Csblog argument for over a very long time because we've struggled outside the Top 3 in the draft.,

Yeah right. Total homer argument. It is well known that the Celtics are terrible at picking, and really, everyone else is hitting jackpot after jackpot consistently because drafting beyond pick 10 is super easy and a totally 100% sure deal.

Ah, the standard defense. It's like a warm blanket on this blog.

You're literally bringing nothing to the discussion except "uh u stupid".

At least I went out my way to find data and gave you credit.

Maybe try being a bit less of a negative force.

Oh come on. If the Cs had made a better pick than Nesmith, they'd be in a better position to trade for Sabonis -- simple as that. Blaming the draft like its a roulette game is homerism.

Being objective is not a "negative force."

Note how I use the quotes properly. I dunno what Uh U Stupid is about but it didn't come from me.

Maybe don't start your argumenting by saying someone's being a homer.

Also, statistics backed me up.

Also, saying "yeah but if we drafted someone better than Nesmith we'd get better return" is a bit ... I don't know how to say this. It's kinda like saying "if I had $10 I'd have more than if I had $5." Like, yeah, okay. My whole point was that finding the $10 is purely chance.

Stats backed me up on it so call me a homer all you want, I'm right.

The warm blanket thing was also the most useless thing to say in a discussion ever. What did that add to the discussion huh? Did you expect everyone to go "oh yeah, good point, we now suddenly agree with you"?

No, you were just trying to rile someone up a lil.

That's what I mean by being a negative force.

Man, someone has their blood up. You just rip me broadly for objecting to the Cs recent draft record as the luck of the draw. Seriously?

And what stats are you referring to? I don’t see any. Do stats back up drafting Nesmith over Anthony, Maxey, Bey, Quickley, Bane or others? Nope.

How about any of the articles posted by Sophomore?

Happy to read ‘em — haven’t.

[Kiorrik]

Nesmith or Romeo, three #1s, two pick swaps for Sabonis?

.... the moment you realize missing on picks makes a big difference. Could have taken 4-5 guys over Nosmith who would've improved our chances at a trade like this.

Even when you win the NBA lottery, you're still playing a game of chance.

....a homer Csblog argument for over a very long time because we've struggled outside the Top 3 in the draft.,

Yeah right. Total homer argument. It is well known that the Celtics are terrible at picking, and really, everyone else is hitting jackpot after jackpot consistently because drafting beyond pick 10 is super easy and a totally 100% sure deal.

Ah, the standard defense. It's like a warm blanket on this blog.

You're literally bringing nothing to the discussion except "uh u stupid".

At least I went out my way to find data and gave you credit.

Maybe try being a bit less of a negative force.

Oh come on. If the Cs had made a better pick than Nesmith, they'd be in a better position to trade for Sabonis -- simple as that. Blaming the draft like its a roulette game is homerism.

Being objective is not a "negative force."

Note how I use the quotes properly. I dunno what Uh U Stupid is about but it didn't come from me.

Maybe don't start your argumenting by saying someone's being a homer.

Also, statistics backed me up.

Also, saying "yeah but if we drafted someone better than Nesmith we'd get better return" is a bit ... I don't know how to say this. It's kinda like saying "if I had $10 I'd have more than if I had $5." Like, yeah, okay. My whole point was that finding the $10 is purely chance.

Stats backed me up on it so call me a homer all you want, I'm right.

The warm blanket thing was also the most useless thing to say in a discussion ever. What did that add to the discussion huh? Did you expect everyone to go "oh yeah, good point, we now suddenly agree with you"?

No, you were just trying to rile someone up a lil.

That's what I mean by being a negative force.

Man, someone has their blood up. You just rip me broadly for objecting to the Cs recent draft record as the luck of the draw. Seriously?

And what stats are you referring to? I don’t see any. Do stats back up drafting Nesmith over Anthony, Maxey, Bey, Quickley, Bane or others? Nope.

How about any of the articles posted by Sophomore?

Happy to read ‘em — haven’t.

In short; they show that outside the top 10, the odds of scoring on a pick are whimsical at best.

(and that Boston/Danny have been pretty solid at picking in the draft)

[pokeKingCurtis]

Nesmith or Romeo, three #1s, two pick swaps for Sabonis?

.... the moment you realize missing on picks makes a big difference. Could have taken 4-5 guys over Nosmith who would've improved our chances at a trade like this.

Even when you win the NBA lottery, you're still playing a game of chance.

....a homer Csblog argument for over a very long time because we've struggled outside the Top 3 in the draft.,

Yeah right. Total homer argument. It is well known that the Celtics are terrible at picking, and really, everyone else is hitting jackpot after jackpot consistently because drafting beyond pick 10 is super easy and a totally 100% sure deal.

Ah, the standard defense. It's like a warm blanket on this blog.

You're literally bringing nothing to the discussion except "uh u stupid".

At least I went out my way to find data and gave you credit.

Maybe try being a bit less of a negative force.

Oh come on. If the Cs had made a better pick than Nesmith, they'd be in a better position to trade for Sabonis -- simple as that. Blaming the draft like its a roulette game is homerism.

Being objective is not a "negative force."

Note how I use the quotes properly. I dunno what Uh U Stupid is about but it didn't come from me.

Maybe don't start your argumenting by saying someone's being a homer.

Also, statistics backed me up.

Also, saying "yeah but if we drafted someone better than Nesmith we'd get better return" is a bit ... I don't know how to say this. It's kinda like saying "if I had $10 I'd have more than if I had $5." Like, yeah, okay. My whole point was that finding the $10 is purely chance.

Stats backed me up on it so call me a homer all you want, I'm right.

The warm blanket thing was also the most useless thing to say in a discussion ever. What did that add to the discussion huh? Did you expect everyone to go "oh yeah, good point, we now suddenly agree with you"?

No, you were just trying to rile someone up a lil.

That's what I mean by being a negative force.

Man, someone has their blood up. You just rip me broadly for objecting to the Cs recent draft record as the luck of the draw. Seriously?

And what stats are you referring to? I don’t see any. Do stats back up drafting Nesmith over Anthony, Maxey, Bey, Quickley, Bane or others? Nope.

How about any of the articles posted by Sophomore?

Happy to read ‘em — haven’t.

There are definitely articles trying to assess Cs drafts. Here’s one that’s getting a little old now - from 2017 - which includes a proposed value for each slot and ainge’s record. (Good news is most of us could probably extend the analysis for the past few years…)

http://www.celticshub.com/2017/06/21/grading-ainge-drafts/

There are other charts that try to value draft slots based on WAR of players chosen in the slot or odds that the player becomes a star, solid player, role player, bust. There are fancier schemes. Below are a few. My own view is (1) Ainge hit on the most consequential choices he had to make. You cannot blow it when you pick top 3 and he didn’t. *Many others have*. (2) He’s mostly been average picking in the middle to end of the draft. A mix of busts and role players and a few solid hits. (3) he didn’t have a great run of above average performance in the middle/late first round, or a grand slam run late in the draft - the type of pick that can really turn a team around - a Tony Parker or a Jokic. Those guys are rare - and I reserve the right to change my vote when Time Lord plays his third all-star game and Nesmith breaks Ray Allen’s career three-point mark. 

https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/28/22597310/nba-draft-expectations

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

Here you go. As Kiorrik noted, these generally rate Ainge well as a drafter but would love to hear your thoughts.

[todd_days_41]

Nesmith or Romeo, three #1s, two pick swaps for Sabonis?

.... the moment you realize missing on picks makes a big difference. Could have taken 4-5 guys over Nosmith who would've improved our chances at a trade like this.

Even when you win the NBA lottery, you're still playing a game of chance.

....a homer Csblog argument for over a very long time because we've struggled outside the Top 3 in the draft.,

Yeah right. Total homer argument. It is well known that the Celtics are terrible at picking, and really, everyone else is hitting jackpot after jackpot consistently because drafting beyond pick 10 is super easy and a totally 100% sure deal.

Ah, the standard defense. It's like a warm blanket on this blog.

You're literally bringing nothing to the discussion except "uh u stupid".

At least I went out my way to find data and gave you credit.

Maybe try being a bit less of a negative force.

Oh come on. If the Cs had made a better pick than Nesmith, they'd be in a better position to trade for Sabonis -- simple as that. Blaming the draft like its a roulette game is homerism.

Being objective is not a "negative force."

Note how I use the quotes properly. I dunno what Uh U Stupid is about but it didn't come from me.

Maybe don't start your argumenting by saying someone's being a homer.

Also, statistics backed me up.

Also, saying "yeah but if we drafted someone better than Nesmith we'd get better return" is a bit ... I don't know how to say this. It's kinda like saying "if I had $10 I'd have more than if I had $5." Like, yeah, okay. My whole point was that finding the $10 is purely chance.

Stats backed me up on it so call me a homer all you want, I'm right.

The warm blanket thing was also the most useless thing to say in a discussion ever. What did that add to the discussion huh? Did you expect everyone to go "oh yeah, good point, we now suddenly agree with you"?

No, you were just trying to rile someone up a lil.

That's what I mean by being a negative force.

Man, someone has their blood up. You just rip me broadly for objecting to the Cs recent draft record as the luck of the draw. Seriously?

And what stats are you referring to? I don’t see any. Do stats back up drafting Nesmith over Anthony, Maxey, Bey, Quickley, Bane or others? Nope.

How about any of the articles posted by Sophomore?

Happy to read ‘em — haven’t.

There are definitely articles trying to assess Cs drafts. Here’s one that’s getting a little old now - from 2017 - which includes a proposed value for each slot and ainge’s record. (Good news is most of us could probably extend the analysis for the past few years…)

http://www.celticshub.com/2017/06/21/grading-ainge-drafts/

There are other charts that try to value draft slots based on WAR of players chosen in the slot or odds that the player becomes a star, solid player, role player, bust. There are fancier schemes. Below are a few. My own view is (1) Ainge hit on the most consequential choices he had to make. You cannot blow it when you pick top 3 and he didn’t. *Many others have*. (2) He’s mostly been average picking in the middle to end of the draft. A mix of busts and role players and a few solid hits. (3) he didn’t have a great run of above average performance in the middle/late first round, or a grand slam run late in the draft - the type of pick that can really turn a team around - a Tony Parker or a Jokic. Those guys are rare - and I reserve the right to change my vote when Time Lord plays his third all-star game and Nesmith breaks Ray Allen’s career three-point mark. 

https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/28/22597310/nba-draft-expectations

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

Here you go. As Kiorrik noted, these generally rate Ainge well as a drafter but would love to hear your thoughts.

Ok — will read thru (prolly in the AM).

One point I’ve made many times before: Ainge never drafted a single All-Star appearance outside the Top 3 picks (Tatum and Brown) and Rondo (a pick bought from PHX at the last minute because Sarver is cheap as heck). Not one.

Thankfully, he never had many picks high in the lottery. And because he’s one of the greatest transactional GMs ever, he nailed GETTING the picks to get our two stars.

But scouting and decision making? Whoa has it hurt this franchise over the last 10 years. Other than (maybe) Timelord… can you point to being impressed?

Drafting Rozier MIGHT be one — then we signed and traded him for a ghost of Kemba Walker, then had to sell **** to get rid of him.

[seancally]

I don’t really rate Sabonis or Turner as guys who are gonna bring a title in this team’s current form (minus whatever you trade to get them). Is Tatum/Brown/Sabonis a champ? Idk… color me skeptical. If you’re gonna spring those assets for a guy, I’d rather it be Beal or Lillard or etc. Still think this team benefits most from an upper-tier lead guard. Not saying we wouldn’t be better with Sabonis, potentially, but not good enough for the assets we’d have to part with.

[Moranis]

It still amazes me that Al Jefferson could make the 3rd Team All NBA one year (and he finished 8th in MVP that season), but never made the all star team at any point in his career. 

[GreenlyGreeny]

Trade Brad Stevens, draft picks and anyone else from the team they want except the Jays for Sabonis.

It would be interesting to see CBS back to coaching after taking some time off from it. This GM gig was not so great to takeover from Danny. Have to think that Indiana would be intrigued by a trade of Smart, Brad Stevens, filler and a pick for Sabonis. Love what Sabonis could bring to the team.

[Moranis]

Trade Brad Stevens, draft picks and anyone else from the team they want except the Jays for Sabonis.

It would be interesting to see CBS back to coaching after taking some time off from it. This GM gig was not so great to takeover from Danny. Have to think that Indiana would be intrigued by a trade of Smart, Brad Stevens, filler and a pick for Sabonis. Love what Sabonis could bring to the team.

No they wouldn't.  I mean this seriously, do you try to think of the worst possible trade and then propose that just to get reactions?

[boscel33]

I think Brad did an decent job at rebuilding a roster that on the back end was awful.  The issue the C's have right now if JB's health. 

[OhioGreen]

I think C's need a total rebuild!  This current squad is going nowhere fast.  JB just can't stay healthy, and his balky knees are a concern down the road.  Tatum is just a diva, and I don't think he'll ever be on a title team.  Kobe B attitude without the KB skills.
So, I'd trade both to Pacers for Sabonis, Turner, Levert and a pick.  Then I'd work on moving Timelord (who can't stay healthy) and Horford or Schroder for a LEGIT point guard and a PURE shooter for SG.  Maybe a JBrunson/THardaway/TRoss.  Just to name a couple.  We really need a REAL PG, though. Lots of undervalued guys out there!   Keep our youth (PP, Nesmith, Langford) and you have a total RESET.
We're just spinning our wheels now.  In a vacuum JT and JB are really good, but together they just don't work.  Basically a .500 team for almost two years.  Time to try something new!

[nickagneta]

I think C's need a total rebuild!  This current squad is going nowhere fast.  JB just can't stay healthy, and his balky knees are a concern down the road.  Tatum is just a diva, and I don't think he'll ever be on a title team.  Kobe B attitude without the KB skills.
So, I'd trade both to Pacers for Sabonis, Turner, Levert and a pick.  Then I'd work on moving Timelord (who can't stay healthy) and Horford or Schroder for a LEGIT point guard and a PURE shooter for SG.  Maybe a JBrunson/THardaway/TRoss.  Just to name a couple.  We really need a REAL PG, though. Lots of undervalued guys out there!   Keep our youth (PP, Nesmith, Langford) and you have a total RESET.
We're just spinning our wheels now.  In a vacuum JT and JB are really good, but together they just don't work.  Basically a .500 team for almost two years.  Time to try something new!

This proposal's main players are featured players on teams with worse records than the Celtics. It actually makes the Celtics worse.

[mobilija]

Brogdon and Sabonis are the best obvious targets for us.

I would absolutely trade some draft capital, some of our bench youth (even RobWill) and short term vet salary for both those guys. But, both out of range for our TPE so that's tuff...

[todd_days_41]

Nesmith or Romeo, three #1s, two pick swaps for Sabonis?

.... the moment you realize missing on picks makes a big difference. Could have taken 4-5 guys over Nosmith who would've improved our chances at a trade like this.

Even when you win the NBA lottery, you're still playing a game of chance.

....a homer Csblog argument for over a very long time because we've struggled outside the Top 3 in the draft.,

Yeah right. Total homer argument. It is well known that the Celtics are terrible at picking, and really, everyone else is hitting jackpot after jackpot consistently because drafting beyond pick 10 is super easy and a totally 100% sure deal.

Ah, the standard defense. It's like a warm blanket on this blog.

You're literally bringing nothing to the discussion except "uh u stupid".

At least I went out my way to find data and gave you credit.

Maybe try being a bit less of a negative force.

Oh come on. If the Cs had made a better pick than Nesmith, they'd be in a better position to trade for Sabonis -- simple as that. Blaming the draft like its a roulette game is homerism.

Being objective is not a "negative force."

Note how I use the quotes properly. I dunno what Uh U Stupid is about but it didn't come from me.

Maybe don't start your argumenting by saying someone's being a homer.

Also, statistics backed me up.

Also, saying "yeah but if we drafted someone better than Nesmith we'd get better return" is a bit ... I don't know how to say this. It's kinda like saying "if I had $10 I'd have more than if I had $5." Like, yeah, okay. My whole point was that finding the $10 is purely chance.

Stats backed me up on it so call me a homer all you want, I'm right.

The warm blanket thing was also the most useless thing to say in a discussion ever. What did that add to the discussion huh? Did you expect everyone to go "oh yeah, good point, we now suddenly agree with you"?

No, you were just trying to rile someone up a lil.

That's what I mean by being a negative force.

Man, someone has their blood up. You just rip me broadly for objecting to the Cs recent draft record as the luck of the draw. Seriously?

And what stats are you referring to? I don’t see any. Do stats back up drafting Nesmith over Anthony, Maxey, Bey, Quickley, Bane or others? Nope.

How about any of the articles posted by Sophomore?

Happy to read ‘em — haven’t.

In short; they show that outside the top 10, the odds of scoring on a pick are whimsical at best.

(and that Boston/Danny have been pretty solid at picking in the draft)

Oh hey… then we must be doing great then (treading water at .500).

The reigning league MVP was picked 41st in the NBA draft. The guy before him was picked 15th…. One pick after Kelly Olynyk, who Ainge traded up for. That guy who was picked 15th won a championship last year, and his “2nd Star” was picked 39th in the draft. The 2019 NBA champs were lead by a guy who was picked 15th, as well. And on and on and on.

Read all the articles you want. Danny Ainge NEVER landed a pick in that way. Ever. In 18 years. And frankly, he got worse as he went. The only championship he won was led by three guys he didn’t draft, and his most recent legacy picks sitting on our bench ain’t exactly the Globetrotters.

Ainge was a truly great transactional GM. But he missed a ton in the draft.