Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season

[droopdog7]

I agree with most of PhoSita's takes but I don't think they sent out more talent this summer than they took back. Kemba is cooked and one more ball dominant guard was not going to improve the situation.  Considering the market, the additions were solid. 

The coach is in over his head. But he's also not getting any help from Tatum, who's been awful.

I think Horford is a better player at this point than Kemba or Fournier.  Kemba and Fournier are both better than anybody else the Celtics added.

Let's also count in the fact that the Celts had to jettison a mid-1st round pick in order to move Kemba, so that is a sort of talent loss at least as an opportunity cost to move off Kemba.

I think Horford is more of a floor raiser than Kemba, while Kemba was a ceiling raiser.  He wasn't healthy often enough but when he was feeling good, he gave the Celtics something they desperately lack now, which is a good shooter who could also handle the ball and break down the defense.


Who's the third best scorer on the Celtics now?  Is it Horford? Schroder? Payton Pritchard?  These aren't the names you want to have as your 3rd scoring option.

What’s funny about this is that all I heard over the summer was that the jays were enough.  That’s smart could a bus driver and didn’t need to score.  That we didn’t need someone like kemba (even the good kemba) because he got in the Jays way. 

All of those takes were WAY off.

[Celtics2021]

If we keep losing games, I'd love us to start Nesmith and Pritchard. I reckon they'd be a great fit alongside the Jays. Personally speaking, I would have been starting Nesmith from day 1 (regardless of our losing record). Pritchard is another story, cause we are relatively deep at the PG position. Obviously, Schroder is a better player, but he needs the ball in his hands. Basketball is played with only one ball.

PG: Pritchard (bring the ball up the court + space the floor. Hide him on the least threatening opposing guard on defense. Alternatively, hide him in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist waiting in the corners.)
SG: Brown (straight line drives to the basket + catch and shoot + transition offense + a bit of shot creation off the dribble)
SF: Nesmith (3+D role player)
PF: Tatum (de facto PG in the half court, constantly run the PnR with Horford/Timelord. I'd ask him to drastically limit the iso.)
C: Horford (secondary play maker in the half court + PnP pop man + PnR roll man + catch and shoot + maybe post up a little bit. Play drop coverage on defense.)

I don't know what Pritchard has done this year that makes you think he's deserved any playing time.  He's been individually awful, and the team has been collectively awful with him on the court.

[blink]

I think there is too much focus on the offensive issues and not enough on the def.
There was a report that we didn't get one def rebound in the 4th quarter, along with giving up 39 points when the game was on the line.
That seems like the bigger problem to me.  Yeah Tatum and Brown aren't creating for other players very well yet, but I see the biggest change is the drop in our def.  We are last in scoring defense so far this year.  That is a HUGE change from the past few years.  The def needs to be fixed.  We can't win games giving up 119 points per game.  We will be in the lottery for sure.  Whatever is going on, bad def coaching, bad def system, guys not doing their jobs on def, the whole thing needs to change.

[Jvalin]

If we keep losing games, I'd love us to start Nesmith and Pritchard. I reckon they'd be a great fit alongside the Jays. Personally speaking, I would have been starting Nesmith from day 1 (regardless of our losing record). Pritchard is another story, cause we are relatively deep at the PG position. Obviously, Schroder is a better player, but he needs the ball in his hands. Basketball is played with only one ball.

PG: Pritchard (bring the ball up the court + space the floor. Hide him on the least threatening opposing guard on defense. Alternatively, hide him in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist waiting in the corners.)
SG: Brown (straight line drives to the basket + catch and shoot + transition offense + a bit of shot creation off the dribble)
SF: Nesmith (3+D role player)
PF: Tatum (de facto PG in the half court, constantly run the PnR with Horford/Timelord. I'd ask him to drastically limit the iso.)
C: Horford (secondary play maker in the half court + PnP pop man + PnR roll man + catch and shoot + maybe post up a little bit. Play drop coverage on defense.)

I don't know what Pritchard has done this year that makes you think he's deserved any playing time.  He's been individually awful, and the team has been collectively awful with him on the court.

It's all about the fit. We know for a fact he's a terrific shooter. Imo, we need off-ball specialists / floor spacers around the Jays. Pritchard and Nesmith are possibly our 2 best shooters (at least in theory).

[PhoSita]

I think there is too much focus on the offensive issues and not enough on the def.
There was a report that we didn't get one def rebound in the 4th quarter, along with giving up 39 points when the game was on the line.
That seems like the bigger problem to me.  Yeah Tatum and Brown aren't creating for other players very well yet, but I see the biggest change is the drop in our def.  We are last in scoring defense so far this year.  That is a HUGE change from the past few years.  The def needs to be fixed.  We can't win games giving up 119 points per game.  We will be in the lottery for sure.  Whatever is going on, bad def coaching, bad def system, guys not doing their jobs on def, the whole thing needs to change.

I think that part of this is that both Tatum and Brown have been pretty bad defensively, yet it's difficult to ask them to give a lot more effort on that end when they have to carry such a huge load on offense.

One end definitely feeds into the other.

[Celtics2021]

I think there is too much focus on the offensive issues and not enough on the def.
There was a report that we didn't get one def rebound in the 4th quarter, along with giving up 39 points when the game was on the line.
That seems like the bigger problem to me.  Yeah Tatum and Brown aren't creating for other players very well yet, but I see the biggest change is the drop in our def.  We are last in scoring defense so far this year.  That is a HUGE change from the past few years.  The def needs to be fixed.  We can't win games giving up 119 points per game.  We will be in the lottery for sure.  Whatever is going on, bad def coaching, bad def system, guys not doing their jobs on def, the whole thing needs to change.

Agreed wholeheartedly.  Our defensive rating is 4th worst in the NBA (PPG skews it a little bit since we've had 5 OT periods in only 7 games), after swapping out defensive liabilities like Kemba and Fournier, while adding players with better defensive reputations in Richardson, Horford, and Schroder.  The offense is problematic, but we could have a top 6 offense and still find ourselves outscored for the season.

We're not great on the defensive glass, but we're also first in blocks and top 10 in steals.  But we give up a ton of points in the paint, leading me to believe there are a lot of defensive breakdowns, leading us to sometimes recover with a block, but more often give up uncontested shots at the rim, either on cutters, drives, or putbacks.

[ozgod]

I think there is too much focus on the offensive issues and not enough on the def.
There was a report that we didn't get one def rebound in the 4th quarter, along with giving up 39 points when the game was on the line.
That seems like the bigger problem to me.  Yeah Tatum and Brown aren't creating for other players very well yet, but I see the biggest change is the drop in our def.  We are last in scoring defense so far this year.  That is a HUGE change from the past few years.  The def needs to be fixed.  We can't win games giving up 119 points per game.  We will be in the lottery for sure.  Whatever is going on, bad def coaching, bad def system, guys not doing their jobs on def, the whole thing needs to change.

The two points you brought up are linked…we didn’t get a single defensive rebound because the bulls shot 13-16 and there were only 3 missed shots and they didn’t get any of them. The defensive deterioration is embarrassing though considering Ime criticized Brad for it during his interview (remember the media making a big deal about how Ime was going to restore the teams defensive identity).

Again it’s early days but it’s not looking good so far.

[nickagneta]

I think Nesmith played very good basketball the last 20-30 games for us last year. He is an elite shooter who plays with a tone of effort on every play, gets his nose dirty on the boards and shows tangible emotion on the court (unlike most of our other players - regarding the emotion piece).

He also has a better NBA body for wing position than Smart. I’d 100% rather see him playing the two than Smart.

I’m OK with Robert Williams so far. Like Embiid (from an injury standpoint) he needs to limit how many times he goes airborne all over the place. Williams is averaging 11 points, 10 rebounds, three blocks, two assists and a steal per 36 minutes, with an ORtg,DRtg or 139/109. That is rock solid. A big part of his value to us is his availability.

The guy I’d like to trade is Marcus Smart.

Pritchard should also be getting more minutes.

Man I get so annoyed by the "trade the guy you don't like" posts.  For what, another guy you don't like?  Or maybe we give up something to get rid or him?  Trading bad players should net only bad players back.  So what's the point?

Now if you say bench him at least that maks sense.

Smart has been awful for well over one season. Trading a player that has been a net negative for the team, whether with other players/assets or not, to add a player you feel will be a net positive makes sense.

Taking a player that makes $13+ million per annum and has been a net negative for a long time and just bury him on the bench and not use him, makes little to no sense from a team improvement point of view and also a team finance point of view.

But in theory the trade balances out.  If he’s a net negative, then you’re going to end up net negative at the end.  There are no miracles here.

And no, this isn’t a situation where you have a good player that doesn’t fit or you have a surplus and you can reshuffle.  Smart is showing to be an awful offensive player without a position.

Your assumption of a net negative player out only yields a net negative player back is not only faulty, but has been proven wrong time and time and time again. Sometimes all a player needs is a change of scenery, coaching and team mates to flourish.

A pretty famous example of this is the Celtics trading "on the cusp of retirement and playing awful" Tayshaun Prince and "I was great for a week but then sucksd" Marcus Thornton for Isaiah Thomas and Jonas Jerebko. Net negative out, net positive in. Just last year, net negative Jeff Teague was traded with a TPE for Evan Fournier, who if kept could have been not just a net positive but a gigantic net positive.


I think if the CS moved Smart and pieces, whether that's a pick or a youngster, they absolutely could pick up a guy that makes the team better. It happens all the time.

[Celtics2021]

If we keep losing games, I'd love us to start Nesmith and Pritchard. I reckon they'd be a great fit alongside the Jays. Personally speaking, I would have been starting Nesmith from day 1 (regardless of our losing record). Pritchard is another story, cause we are relatively deep at the PG position. Obviously, Schroder is a better player, but he needs the ball in his hands. Basketball is played with only one ball.

PG: Pritchard (bring the ball up the court + space the floor. Hide him on the least threatening opposing guard on defense. Alternatively, hide him in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist waiting in the corners.)
SG: Brown (straight line drives to the basket + catch and shoot + transition offense + a bit of shot creation off the dribble)
SF: Nesmith (3+D role player)
PF: Tatum (de facto PG in the half court, constantly run the PnR with Horford/Timelord. I'd ask him to drastically limit the iso.)
C: Horford (secondary play maker in the half court + PnP pop man + PnR roll man + catch and shoot + maybe post up a little bit. Play drop coverage on defense.)

I don't know what Pritchard has done this year that makes you think he's deserved any playing time.  He's been individually awful, and the team has been collectively awful with him on the court.

It's all about the fit. We know for a fact he's a terrific shooter. Imo, we need off-ball specialists / floor spacers around the Jays. Pritchard and Nesmith are possibly our 2 best shooters (at least in theory).

Dude just dribbles all over the place while chucking threes, and is a total liability on defense.  Also, Tatum's net rating with Pritchard is the worst of any player this season he's been on the court at least 30 minutes with.  He clearly hasn't helped elevate Tatum's game, and it's not hard to wonder why.

[Who]

I want to see Pritchard offer more dribble penetration before I am ready to insert him into the starting lineup. It doesn't need to be a lot but he needs to give the team some dribble drive threat. Until then, I want Schroeder starting.

I want Nesmith to show he can be relied on to be a steady bench contributor before being a starter. Until then, I would rather start Smart at guard next to Schroder with the Jays at forward. If Nesmith or Romeo can establish themselves as a reliable contributor, then it is worth talking about moving Smart to the bench.

I am fine with starting an inferior player over Smart in order to get rotation / lineup balance but that player needs to be reliable. The young guys have not shown they can be reliable yet.

[Jvalin]

If we keep losing games, I'd love us to start Nesmith and Pritchard. I reckon they'd be a great fit alongside the Jays. Personally speaking, I would have been starting Nesmith from day 1 (regardless of our losing record). Pritchard is another story, cause we are relatively deep at the PG position. Obviously, Schroder is a better player, but he needs the ball in his hands. Basketball is played with only one ball.

PG: Pritchard (bring the ball up the court + space the floor. Hide him on the least threatening opposing guard on defense. Alternatively, hide him in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist waiting in the corners.)
SG: Brown (straight line drives to the basket + catch and shoot + transition offense + a bit of shot creation off the dribble)
SF: Nesmith (3+D role player)
PF: Tatum (de facto PG in the half court, constantly run the PnR with Horford/Timelord. I'd ask him to drastically limit the iso.)
C: Horford (secondary play maker in the half court + PnP pop man + PnR roll man + catch and shoot + maybe post up a little bit. Play drop coverage on defense.)

I don't know what Pritchard has done this year that makes you think he's deserved any playing time.  He's been individually awful, and the team has been collectively awful with him on the court.

It's all about the fit. We know for a fact he's a terrific shooter. Imo, we need off-ball specialists / floor spacers around the Jays. Pritchard and Nesmith are possibly our 2 best shooters (at least in theory).

Dude just dribbles all over the place while chucking threes, and is a total liability on defense.  Also, Tatum's net rating with Pritchard is the worst of any player this season he's been on the court at least 30 minutes with.  He clearly hasn't helped elevate Tatum's game, and it's not hard to wonder why.

Still, he's probably our best shooter. He's on the ball a lot cause he's mostly playing with the second unit. If he were playing with the starters, his role would have been completely different. I'd just ask him to bring the ball up the court and then hand over the reins to Tatum. Agreed that he's a limited defender. Again, we can hide him either on the least threatening opposing guard or in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist lurking in the corners. Generally speaking, it's relatively easy to hide PGs on defense. We've been doing it for several years with IT4, Kyrie, Kemba, etc. I would argue the PG position is the least important one when it comes to defense (and the most important one when it comes to offense).

[gouki88]

If we keep losing games, I'd love us to start Nesmith and Pritchard. I reckon they'd be a great fit alongside the Jays. Personally speaking, I would have been starting Nesmith from day 1 (regardless of our losing record). Pritchard is another story, cause we are relatively deep at the PG position. Obviously, Schroder is a better player, but he needs the ball in his hands. Basketball is played with only one ball.

PG: Pritchard (bring the ball up the court + space the floor. Hide him on the least threatening opposing guard on defense. Alternatively, hide him in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist waiting in the corners.)
SG: Brown (straight line drives to the basket + catch and shoot + transition offense + a bit of shot creation off the dribble)
SF: Nesmith (3+D role player)
PF: Tatum (de facto PG in the half court, constantly run the PnR with Horford/Timelord. I'd ask him to drastically limit the iso.)
C: Horford (secondary play maker in the half court + PnP pop man + PnR roll man + catch and shoot + maybe post up a little bit. Play drop coverage on defense.)

I don't know what Pritchard has done this year that makes you think he's deserved any playing time.  He's been individually awful, and the team has been collectively awful with him on the court.

It's all about the fit. We know for a fact he's a terrific shooter. Imo, we need off-ball specialists / floor spacers around the Jays. Pritchard and Nesmith are possibly our 2 best shooters (at least in theory).

Dude just dribbles all over the place while chucking threes, and is a total liability on defense.  Also, Tatum's net rating with Pritchard is the worst of any player this season he's been on the court at least 30 minutes with.  He clearly hasn't helped elevate Tatum's game, and it's not hard to wonder why.

You seem to have a real bone to pick with PP

[tenn_smoothie]

What a disaster this has turned into.

[Moranis]

PP is old.  He isn't going to progress like many rookies.  I mean he is older than Tatum.  Just think about that for a second.  PP did well as a rookie because he was prepared to play after a long college career, but it doesn't mean he is going to be much more than he was as a rookie because most really old rookies don't actually get much better as they go on.  There is after all a reason they are really old rookies (i.e. they weren't good enough to leave school early). 

[liam]

If we keep losing games, I'd love us to start Nesmith and Pritchard. I reckon they'd be a great fit alongside the Jays. Personally speaking, I would have been starting Nesmith from day 1 (regardless of our losing record). Pritchard is another story, cause we are relatively deep at the PG position. Obviously, Schroder is a better player, but he needs the ball in his hands. Basketball is played with only one ball.

PG: Pritchard (bring the ball up the court + space the floor. Hide him on the least threatening opposing guard on defense. Alternatively, hide him in the corners. Most teams have an off-ball specialist waiting in the corners.)
SG: Brown (straight line drives to the basket + catch and shoot + transition offense + a bit of shot creation off the dribble)
SF: Nesmith (3+D role player)
PF: Tatum (de facto PG in the half court, constantly run the PnR with Horford/Timelord. I'd ask him to drastically limit the iso.)
C: Horford (secondary play maker in the half court + PnP pop man + PnR roll man + catch and shoot + maybe post up a little bit. Play drop coverage on defense.)

I don't know what Pritchard has done this year that makes you think he's deserved any playing time.  He's been individually awful, and the team has been collectively awful with him on the court.

Pritchard hasn't played as well this year and he's wearing that mask but his per 36 numbers are almost the same as Smart's.