Does Jaylen need to accept the Pippen role for this to work

[droopdog7]

If Tatum was Jordan, pretty much any second star would do.

[nickagneta]

Pippen was amazing as a number 2 guy because he was a natural PG in high school and college then grew a bunch. So he was a SF but with excellent PG skills that fit perfectly alongside MJ as a playmaker.

Neither Jay has that passing/playmaking ability that raises others' games. And last year it sure seemed that both were being coached to be number 1 guys.

I actually think Udoka has to integrate them and let them play more together and off each other instead of letting both players taking turns being "the guy". I think the best case scenario is if they can be #1A and #1B players that play in unison, rather as separate lead players taking turns dominating the ball

You've said this before and as I pointed out the last time you said this both Tatum and Brown played PG in high school.  In fact Tatum was a PG for most of his high school career (his last year he had gotten bigger and moved to the wing). 

Here is a quote from Stevens during Tatum's rookie year.

“He’s 6-9, but he really plays point guard. He played point guard all throughout high school. In college, he’s 6-9, so he has to play the 3 and the 4,” Brad remarked. “He has a mismatch every night and it’s an unfair advantage because he can put the ball on the floor, shoot threes, and he has mid-post game. So he’s pretty much giving you whatever you want.”

Being forced to play PG in high school because you are the team's best player and being a natural PG so much that you excelled at it in college are two completely different things. Anyone who watched the Jays play ball in college and their first year or two in the NBA can see they had almost no true PG skills while Pippen did. You're just being contrarian here.

[nickagneta]

On a team that is noted for not playing together and not moving the ball well, Jaylen can literally go several games in a row without an assist. His assist to turnover ratio is poor. His free throw shooting is also below average.

His 3 point shooting has been a positive, and in todays NBA that's certainly a plus. Where Brown really excels is in the open court in an up-pace game, exactly where the Celtics seldom play.

You want to point out those several games in a row where Jaylen went without an assist. He had exactly 4 games last year without an assist and only one back to back no assist streak.

Before that back to back Jaylen played 21 games with only one 0 assist game and averaged 3.4 assists. After that back to back Brown played in 34 games with only one 0 assist game and averaged, yup, 3.4 assists per game.

[nickagneta]

No. That is not Jaylen's skill-set. He would do a crappy job as a Pippen-like player. He needs to be Jaylen Brown. The best Jaylen Brown he is capable of being.

Not imitating a player he has little similarity to. A player he'll never be anything that a horribly poor imitation of because he does not have the skills to imitate that player.

Be the best Jaylen Brown Jaylen is able to be.
That is what he needs to do.

.I see your point Who. However I really mean does he have to accept the fact that he's the second banana in Boston.

For those that want him to "accept" that, again I have to ask, why? He's a legit talent and improving, why should he accept to settle? Are Tatum and Brown butting heads in particular about their role in the team?

I just don't understand the reasoning or the fascination of this from those that want Brown to for some reason or another be a lesser player of what he could be... unless they're having problems with each other.

Because teams need defined roles. You can still score 25 ppg in the second banana role. But you must understand when push comes to shove. Larry is shooting it not Kevin.

Westbrook couldn't understand Durant was the go to guy and it was a problem.  Durant left.

Huge difference between a guy who has never been an above league average efficiency scorer in Westbrook and one of the best post scorers ever who posted sky-high rTS% numbers in McHale regardless of the defences he played against in the playoffs though. The modern NBA would tell Bird to handle the ball in crunch time because he can create and score, not because he can fill it up better than McHale.

Actually, even in his time, Bird was handling the ball late in games and being the scorer and creator.

[wiley]

No

This is not one persons team.  That mindset needs to change

Win as a team

Perfectly stated.  And any player who accepts that will become a better player, not worse.

The whole alpha leader of the pack should come about naturally if at all.  It doesn't have to be the best scorer.  In fact forcing that mentality onto the top scoring talent will just create the dark side of Carmelo or Paul George's game (iso ball, turnovers, team stagnation). 

Tatum is the most talented scorer on the team (at least for now).  So what? 

[Somebody]

No. That is not Jaylen's skill-set. He would do a crappy job as a Pippen-like player. He needs to be Jaylen Brown. The best Jaylen Brown he is capable of being.

Not imitating a player he has little similarity to. A player he'll never be anything that a horribly poor imitation of because he does not have the skills to imitate that player.

Be the best Jaylen Brown Jaylen is able to be.
That is what he needs to do.

.I see your point Who. However I really mean does he have to accept the fact that he's the second banana in Boston.

For those that want him to "accept" that, again I have to ask, why? He's a legit talent and improving, why should he accept to settle? Are Tatum and Brown butting heads in particular about their role in the team?

I just don't understand the reasoning or the fascination of this from those that want Brown to for some reason or another be a lesser player of what he could be... unless they're having problems with each other.

Because teams need defined roles. You can still score 25 ppg in the second banana role. But you must understand when push comes to shove. Larry is shooting it not Kevin.

Westbrook couldn't understand Durant was the go to guy and it was a problem.  Durant left.

Huge difference between a guy who has never been an above league average efficiency scorer in Westbrook and one of the best post scorers ever who posted sky-high rTS% numbers in McHale regardless of the defences he played against in the playoffs though. The modern NBA would tell Bird to handle the ball in crunch time because he can create and score, not because he can fill it up better than McHale.

Actually, even in his time, Bird was handling the ball late in games and being the scorer and creator.

Yeah I'm not arguing against that, I was saying the reasoning behind modern NBA teams letting a Bird-like player handle the ball late in games.

[Who]

I believe it was the Thinking Basketball writer who made an interesting observation and argument about Kevin McHale pointing out that McHale's offensive numbers barely budged the year Bird missed the season with his back injury.

McHale with Bird in 1988 - 22.6ppg on 14.2 shots 6.8 FTs 2.2 TOs to 2.7apg
McHale without Bird in 1989 - 22.5ppg on 15.5 shots 6.8 FTs 2.5 TOs to 2.2apg

Remarkably similar offensive production.

The writer then argued that these numbers show McHale was best suited to being a #2 rather than a #1 because he was unable to increase his scoring when Bird went down.

He used this to question how well McHale would have done as a franchise player. 

These numbers were after the foot injury in 1987.

[Who]

No

This is not one persons team.  That mindset needs to change

Win as a team

Perfectly stated.  And any player who accepts that will become a better player, not worse.

The whole alpha leader of the pack should come about naturally if at all.  It doesn't have to be the best scorer.  In fact forcing that mentality onto the top scoring talent will just create the dark side of Carmelo or Paul George's game (iso ball, turnovers, team stagnation). 

Tatum is the most talented scorer on the team (at least for now).  So what?

Completely agree.


This Celtics team reminds me some of the 1979 Sonics with Tatum and Jaylen akin to their backcourt of Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson (and Freddie Brown off the bench).

That Sonics team won with a team identity fueled by defense, rebounding, passing, teamwork and the explosive scoring of their backcourt.

I see Tatum and Jaylen as replacing the backcourt scoring with their wing scoring. And then needing to fine tune the rest of the team around them to provide the team-knitting skills to create team unity. Horford being an ideal facilitator (a little similar to Sikma for Seattle).

The league is less rough and tumble now so less onus on defense & rebounding (in role players) and more onus on floor spacing (outside shooting) and passing to facilitate the offense (to fuel teamwork) is the formula for making this work.

--------------

There is this idea that Tatum (or Jaylen) needs to rise to be the alpha / MVP candidate or something like that ... I say, they can win as they are today. Right here, right now. Even without that growth.

Now, I still hope for that growth. And if the growth happens - great, that makes everything easier!

But even without that growth, this team can win a Championship with Tatum and Jaylen as they are today. We just need to put the right pieces around them. And the best way we can do that is inside a team concept rather than a star-based concept ... because Jaylen & Tatum have not (yet) shown the skills to win that way. To make their teammates better. To create a team out of their own skills.

No, instead they need others to create that team for them. To provide the teamwork that allows them to shine. To flourish.

[Moranis]

Pippen was amazing as a number 2 guy because he was a natural PG in high school and college then grew a bunch. So he was a SF but with excellent PG skills that fit perfectly alongside MJ as a playmaker.

Neither Jay has that passing/playmaking ability that raises others' games. And last year it sure seemed that both were being coached to be number 1 guys.

I actually think Udoka has to integrate them and let them play more together and off each other instead of letting both players taking turns being "the guy". I think the best case scenario is if they can be #1A and #1B players that play in unison, rather as separate lead players taking turns dominating the ball

You've said this before and as I pointed out the last time you said this both Tatum and Brown played PG in high school.  In fact Tatum was a PG for most of his high school career (his last year he had gotten bigger and moved to the wing). 

Here is a quote from Stevens during Tatum's rookie year.

“He’s 6-9, but he really plays point guard. He played point guard all throughout high school. In college, he’s 6-9, so he has to play the 3 and the 4,” Brad remarked. “He has a mismatch every night and it’s an unfair advantage because he can put the ball on the floor, shoot threes, and he has mid-post game. So he’s pretty much giving you whatever you want.”

Being forced to play PG in high school because you are the team's best player and being a natural PG so much that you excelled at it in college are two completely different things. Anyone who watched the Jays play ball in college and their first year or two in the NBA can see they had almost no true PG skills while Pippen did. You're just being contrarian here.

Tatum grew up his whole childhood playing PG.  It wasn't until he hit his high school growth spurt that he transitioned over to the wing.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/high-school/boys-basketball/tatum-s-shot-gives-chaminade-last-second-win-over-de/article_1584bbb4-5a17-11e2-907a-0019bb30f31a.html

the opening sentence of the article

There are still many memories to come for basketball prodigy Jayson Tatum, Chaminade’s 14-year-old freshman point guard.

He was never forced to play PG.  He was a PG for like the first 15 years of his life.

[nickagneta]

Pippen was amazing as a number 2 guy because he was a natural PG in high school and college then grew a bunch. So he was a SF but with excellent PG skills that fit perfectly alongside MJ as a playmaker.

Neither Jay has that passing/playmaking ability that raises others' games. And last year it sure seemed that both were being coached to be number 1 guys.

I actually think Udoka has to integrate them and let them play more together and off each other instead of letting both players taking turns being "the guy". I think the best case scenario is if they can be #1A and #1B players that play in unison, rather as separate lead players taking turns dominating the ball

You've said this before and as I pointed out the last time you said this both Tatum and Brown played PG in high school.  In fact Tatum was a PG for most of his high school career (his last year he had gotten bigger and moved to the wing). 

Here is a quote from Stevens during Tatum's rookie year.

“He’s 6-9, but he really plays point guard. He played point guard all throughout high school. In college, he’s 6-9, so he has to play the 3 and the 4,” Brad remarked. “He has a mismatch every night and it’s an unfair advantage because he can put the ball on the floor, shoot threes, and he has mid-post game. So he’s pretty much giving you whatever you want.”

Being forced to play PG in high school because you are the team's best player and being a natural PG so much that you excelled at it in college are two completely different things. Anyone who watched the Jays play ball in college and their first year or two in the NBA can see they had almost no true PG skills while Pippen did. You're just being contrarian here.

Tatum grew up his whole childhood playing PG.  It wasn't until he hit his high school growth spurt that he transitioned over to the wing.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/high-school/boys-basketball/tatum-s-shot-gives-chaminade-last-second-win-over-de/article_1584bbb4-5a17-11e2-907a-0019bb30f31a.html

the opening sentence of the article

There are still many memories to come for basketball prodigy Jayson Tatum, Chaminade’s 14-year-old freshman point guard.

He was never forced to play PG.  He was a PG for like the first 15 years of his life.

So you readily admit Tatum didn't play PG in his last 2-3 years in high school.

And you completely ignored my observation that is it was patently obvious neither showed true PG skills in college or when they got to the pros, which is my original assertion, that they didn't have the natural PG skills that Pippen had. I never said in my original comment that they didn't play PG at some point in their life.

This is what you responded to:

Pippen was amazing as a number 2 guy because he was a natural PG in high school and college then grew a bunch. So he was a SF but with excellent PG skills that fit perfectly alongside MJ as a playmaker.

Neither Jay has that passing/playmaking ability that raises others' games.

Never mentioned if they played PG or not. Said Pippen had a natural ability because he played PG in high school and college and showed those skills in the pros. Said the Jays don't have that natural ability that Pippen had. What does it matter if they played a year or so of PG in high school. They clearly don't have those skills or vision.

[Somebody]

I believe it was the Thinking Basketball writer who made an interesting observation and argument about Kevin McHale pointing out that McHale's offensive numbers barely budged the year Bird missed the season with his back injury.

McHale with Bird in 1988 - 22.6ppg on 14.2 shots 6.8 FTs 2.2 TOs to 2.7apg
McHale without Bird in 1989 - 22.5ppg on 15.5 shots 6.8 FTs 2.5 TOs to 2.2apg

Remarkably similar offensive production.

The writer then argued that these numbers show McHale was best suited to being a #2 rather than a #1 because he was unable to increase his scoring when Bird went down.

He used this to question how well McHale would have done as a franchise player. 

These numbers were after the foot injury in 1987.

It was in one of his podcasts I think (top scorers of all time I think?). And yeah no one is saying that McHale should be an offensive #1, his inability to create for teammates at a high level limited him as an offensive centrepiece. But his scoring was really good - them not budging without Bird sounds like an indictment, but it's impressive that his efficiency didn't quite drop even when defences keyed in on him when Bird was out with basically no loss in volume.

[gouki88]

Pippen meaning #2 option, or Pippen meaning JB has to somehow morph his entire offensive skill-set?

[Ogaju]

No. That is not Jaylen's skill-set. He would do a crappy job as a Pippen-like player. He needs to be Jaylen Brown. The best Jaylen Brown he is capable of being.

Not imitating a player he has little similarity to. A player he'll never be anything that a horribly poor imitation of because he does not have the skills to imitate that player.

Be the best Jaylen Brown Jaylen is able to be.
That is what he needs to do.

.I see your point Who. However I really mean does he have to accept the fact that he's the second banana in Boston.

For those that want him to "accept" that, again I have to ask, why? He's a legit talent and improving, why should he accept to settle? Are Tatum and Brown butting heads in particular about their role in the team?

I just don't understand the reasoning or the fascination of this from those that want Brown to for some reason or another be a lesser player of what he could be... unless they're having problems with each other.

 Because teams need defined roles. You can still score 25 ppg in the second banana role. But you must understand when push comes to shove. Larry is shooting it not Kevin.

 Westbrook couldn't understand Durant was the go to guy and it was a problem.  Durant left.

This l x 100.

[Ogaju]

I think they are both Pippens and that’s the issue.

Brown won’t settle to be a Pippen…without a Pippen there is no Jordan. It’s either that or Tatum won’t assert himself as a Jordan, therefore without a Jordan, you have two Pippen.

[nickagneta]

I think they are both Pippens and that’s the issue.

Brown won’t settle to be a Pippen…without a Pippen there is no Jordan. It’s either that or Tatum won’t assert himself as a Jordan, therefore without a Jordan, you have two Pippen.

Hmmm.....

So does mean that the team can still have a Jordan and a Pippen but with JB as Jordan because he won't settle being a Pippen and Tatum as Pippen because he can't assert himself like a Jordan?