Poll: Celtics/Kings trade

[Birdman]

Celtics trades Jaylen Brown & Marcus Smart to Sacramento for DeAaron Fox, Marvin Bagley, & Buddy Hield

Celtics lineup:
Al Horford
Marvin Bagley
Jayson Tatum
Buddy Hield
DeAaron Fox

Robert Williams
Moses Brown
Tristan Thompson
Evan Fournier
Romeo Langsford
Aaron Nesmith
Payton Pritchard
Jabari Parker

I know this would never happen but kind of like it..

[Who]

I am not that keen on DeAaron Fox. He has to dribble the ball a lot and plays a lot of one-on-one. He is a very good player but not good enough to sacrifice Jaylen Brown for. I need a better individual player to lead that trade package.

I do love me some Buddy Hield but he is a guy I want next to Jaylen and Tatum. Not to replace them.

Mo Bagley has tons of talent (as an undersized quick five) but he has shown zero capacity to fulfill that talent. He is not working on the right things (his defense!). Not a guy I am willing to bet big on.

Basically, I see this a trade as trading down from your top talent in order to gain more quality across the board. More depth. I don't think that is a good strategy in general when dealing with a player as gifted as Jaylen Brown and, in this specific instance, I do not think there is enough quality depth coming back to justify such a move.

[Who]

To add to the DeAaron Fox bit

I am not that keen on DeAaron Fox. He has to dribble the ball a lot and plays a lot of one-on-one. He is a very good player but not good enough to sacrifice Jaylen Brown for. I need a better individual player to lead that trade package.

Fox is the sort of player that looks far better player on a middling basketball team than he would on a winning team. He doesn't play high level winning basketball (as a star, as a leader). He is more of a stat-padder that looks better than he actually is.

The reasons for this is the lack of high efficiency offensive creation particularly in his own scoring. The dude scores a lot - 21 points a year ago, 25 points a game this year. But he takes a lot of shots to get them. 16 shots and 7 FTs a year ago, 19 shots and 7 FTs this year.

His outside shooting is dodgy at only 30-32% on three pointers. He struggles to space the floor or threaten the defense in PnRs with his pull up jump-shot. He either gets all the way to the rim (or the foul line) or you as an opposing team's defense are happy with whatever jump shot he ends up taking.

This makes him a subpar primary creator and unfit to be taking such a large proportion of his team's shot attempts - at least in terms of high quality winning basketball teams. Like I said, fine for middling basketball teams and why he looks better on such a team.

His lack of outside shooting also reduces his team offense (off ball value) meaning almost all of his offensive value comes from individualistic movements (driving with the ball). So right now, he is a solo type star rather than a team-ball star.

His passing is good but not great. So enough extra value is not created here to live with mediocre jump-shooting, ball-happy dribbling and high shot taking selfishness.


Ultimately, Fox is not a player that moves the W-L column as much as one would expect for a player who is putting up big numbers like he is (25ppg 7apg) + he is the type of player who is being over-glorified on a bad-mediocre team vs how well he would do in a high caliber team.

[PhoSita]

If the playoffs teach us anything year after year, it's that you can't rely on a primary ballhandler / creator who can't consistently hit jumpshots and/or punish the defense for sagging off him.

[PAOBoston]

Hard pass. PG is the easiest position to fill in the NBA. No interest in trading an all star two way wing for a PG (albeit a good promising one), a one dimensional two guard, and a bust.

[vjcsmoke]

The reasons for this is the lack of high efficiency offensive creation particularly in his own scoring. The dude scores a lot - 21 points a year ago, 25 points a game this year. But he takes a lot of shots to get them. 16 shots and 7 FTs a year ago, 19 shots and 7 FTs this year.

His outside shooting is dodgy at only 30-32% on three pointers. He struggles to space the floor or threaten the defense in PnRs with his pull up jump-shot. He either gets all the way to the rim (or the foul line) or you as an opposing team's defense are happy with whatever jump shot he ends up taking.

This makes him a subpar primary creator and unfit to be taking such a large proportion of his team's shot attempts - at least in terms of high quality winning basketball teams. Like I said, fine for middling basketball teams and why he looks better on such a team.

His lack of outside shooting also reduces his team offense (off ball value) meaning almost all of his offensive value comes from individualistic movements (driving with the ball). So right now, he is a solo type star rather than a team-ball star.

His passing is good but not great. So enough extra value is not created here to live with mediocre jump-shooting, ball-happy dribbling and high shot taking selfishness.

Ultimately, Fox is not a player that moves the W-L column as much as one would expect for a player who is putting up big numbers like he is (25ppg 7apg) + he is the type of player who is being over-glorified on a bad-mediocre team vs how well he would do in a high caliber team.

Didn't you just describe Russell Westbrook in a nutshell?  Dude is still an offensive machine and a former MVP!  If Fox can turn into Westbrook, don't you just have to live with some deficiencies and hope he can improve on a few weaknesses?

Anyways that trade is a big shakeup.  Not sure I'd swing that big of a deal or if it actually improves us.  I mean you're essentially turning yourself into the Kings and they weren't very good, last time I checked!! 

[Roy H.]

Would the current Kings be a contender if they added Tatum? 

I don’t think so.  I’d rather see where Brown can get us.

[tazzmaniac]

To add to the DeAaron Fox bit

I am not that keen on DeAaron Fox. He has to dribble the ball a lot and plays a lot of one-on-one. He is a very good player but not good enough to sacrifice Jaylen Brown for. I need a better individual player to lead that trade package.

Fox is the sort of player that looks far better player on a middling basketball team than he would on a winning team. He doesn't play high level winning basketball (as a star, as a leader). He is more of a stat-padder that looks better than he actually is.

The reasons for this is the lack of high efficiency offensive creation particularly in his own scoring. The dude scores a lot - 21 points a year ago, 25 points a game this year. But he takes a lot of shots to get them. 16 shots and 7 FTs a year ago, 19 shots and 7 FTs this year.

His outside shooting is dodgy at only 30-32% on three pointers. He struggles to space the floor or threaten the defense in PnRs with his pull up jump-shot. He either gets all the way to the rim (or the foul line) or you as an opposing team's defense are happy with whatever jump shot he ends up taking.

This makes him a subpar primary creator and unfit to be taking such a large proportion of his team's shot attempts - at least in terms of high quality winning basketball teams. Like I said, fine for middling basketball teams and why he looks better on such a team.

His lack of outside shooting also reduces his team offense (off ball value) meaning almost all of his offensive value comes from individualistic movements (driving with the ball). So right now, he is a solo type star rather than a team-ball star.

His passing is good but not great. So enough extra value is not created here to live with mediocre jump-shooting, ball-happy dribbling and high shot taking selfishness.


Ultimately, Fox is not a player that moves the W-L column as much as one would expect for a player who is putting up big numbers like he is (25ppg 7apg) + he is the type of player who is being over-glorified on a bad-mediocre team vs how well he would do in a high caliber team.

Fox scored 25.2 pts on 19.1 fga.  Jaylen scored 24.7 pts on 19.2 fga.  So is Jaylen taking a lot of shots to get his?  Fox drives to the basket and gets to the free throw line which is something we need more of. 

[tazzmaniac]

Would the current Kings be a contender if they added Tatum? 

I don’t think so.  I’d rather see where Brown can get us.

You could put an all-star team of players on the Kings and they'd still figure out how to lose. 

Remember IT4 played for them.  Sometimes players just need a change of scenery to become winners.

[Irish Stew]

Stevens, who worships the 3 ball, is not trading a guy who shot 40% from 3 for a guy who shot 32%.

[Celtics4ever]

Fox is a their star.   I would rather try to get Tyrese Haliburton

[Sophomore]

Stevens, who worships the 3 ball, is not trading a guy who shot 40% from 3 for a guy who shot 32%.

People think the Cs are outliers on the 3 ball. They’re not. They were 10th in the league in attempts per game, very close to middle of the pack. The outliers were Utah (43) and San Antonio (28). We averaged about 36.

I think people compare this Cs team to teams from the past, and they see (correctly) that we shoot a lot more 3s than we used to. But so does the rest of the league; most NBA execs believe it affects winning. A PG who can’t shoot threes makes defense a lot easier for the other team, especially in the playoffs, and our goal is to get players who will thrive in the playoffs.

[footey]

Stevens, who worships the 3 ball, is not trading a guy who shot 40% from 3 for a guy who shot 32%.

People think the Cs are outliers on the 3 ball. They’re not. They were 10th in the league in attempts per game, very close to middle of the pack. The outliers were Utah (43) and San Antonio (28). We averaged about 36.

I think people compare this Cs team to teams from the past, and they see (correctly) that we shoot a lot more 3s than we used to. But so does the rest of the league; most NBA execs believe it affects winning. A PG who can’t shoot threes makes defense a lot easier for the other team, especially in the playoffs, and our goal is to get players who will thrive in the playoffs.

OK, but in that case this makes Marcus Smart a bad option for us at point guard, correct?  I think shooting the 3 well from the point guard position is preferable, but subpar 3 point shooting from pg can be mitigated by other factors: strong defense, and good playmaking skills. also if surrounded by good 3 point shooters. Rule of thumb seems to be that you should have a minimum of 3 decent (at or above league average) 3 point shooters on the floor at all times. 4 if you have a stretch 5. 

[Moranis]

Fox has been a better player than Brown at their experience level i.e. year 1 to year 1, year 2 to year 2, etc.  He is definitely a different kind of player.  Much more a #1 scoring drive and dish sort of player, while Brown is better suited as a #2 scorer and more off the ball type player.  Brown is obviously a much better defender, but I don't think he provides the overall offensive impact and offense is more important than defense these days. 

Even if you think Brown is currently better than Fox, I think the gap between them is much smaller than the gap between Hield/Bagley and Smart.  Hield is an uber elite shooter.  And Bagley has certainly had trouble staying healthy, which has hurt his development a lot, but last year did average basically 14/7.5 while shooting 55% from 2 and 34.3% from 3. 

So ultimately I'd do the trade because I think it makes the team better both in the short term and with long term potential given you get a shot at having 2 foundational pieces (Fox/Bagley) vs. just 1 foundational piece (Brown).  If the goal is to win a championship, this seems like the type of trade that could have much better potential to do that down the line.

[BudweiserCeltic]

To add to the DeAaron Fox bit

I am not that keen on DeAaron Fox. He has to dribble the ball a lot and plays a lot of one-on-one. He is a very good player but not good enough to sacrifice Jaylen Brown for. I need a better individual player to lead that trade package.

Fox is the sort of player that looks far better player on a middling basketball team than he would on a winning team. He doesn't play high level winning basketball (as a star, as a leader). He is more of a stat-padder that looks better than he actually is.

The reasons for this is the lack of high efficiency offensive creation particularly in his own scoring. The dude scores a lot - 21 points a year ago, 25 points a game this year. But he takes a lot of shots to get them. 16 shots and 7 FTs a year ago, 19 shots and 7 FTs this year.

His outside shooting is dodgy at only 30-32% on three pointers. He struggles to space the floor or threaten the defense in PnRs with his pull up jump-shot. He either gets all the way to the rim (or the foul line) or you as an opposing team's defense are happy with whatever jump shot he ends up taking.

This makes him a subpar primary creator and unfit to be taking such a large proportion of his team's shot attempts - at least in terms of high quality winning basketball teams. Like I said, fine for middling basketball teams and why he looks better on such a team.

His lack of outside shooting also reduces his team offense (off ball value) meaning almost all of his offensive value comes from individualistic movements (driving with the ball). So right now, he is a solo type star rather than a team-ball star.

His passing is good but not great. So enough extra value is not created here to live with mediocre jump-shooting, ball-happy dribbling and high shot taking selfishness.


Ultimately, Fox is not a player that moves the W-L column as much as one would expect for a player who is putting up big numbers like he is (25ppg 7apg) + he is the type of player who is being over-glorified on a bad-mediocre team vs how well he would do in a high caliber team.

Fox scored 25.2 pts on 19.1 fga.  Jaylen scored 24.7 pts on 19.2 fga.  So is Jaylen taking a lot of shots to get his?  Fox drives to the basket and gets to the free throw line which is something we need more of.

Their Per-36 are identical in points, PPG in general has a lot of noise if one wants to get into details. Brown is a more efficient shooter, Fox makes up for it getting to the line more, but he's not a good FT shooter. Brown is not great either there, though quite better, but has been trending up.

Those points aside, I do value Brown's ability to play SG/SF as 6'6' strong player and his defense more, but hope the above answered your question some.