Poll: Celtics/Kings trade

[BudweiserCeltic]

Can we do this without the Fox/Brown part?

Yeah, that was my thinking too. Also without Bagley. Just a Smart for Hield swap - probably need some salary filler to make it work but based around those two.

It would be so nice to see the Jays have a shooter like Hield next to them. Someone who can terrify opposing teams with his accuracy and volume from 3. Someone opposing teams have to worry about from all over the court.

My question is, why swap Smart for Hield when Fournier is a comparable to not say better shooter than Hield and we don't have to give anyone away to get him?

I don't view Fournier as anywhere close to Hield. Hield is on a par with Klay Thompson.

The difference is volume. Hield has relentless volume. Around 10 three pointers attempts per game. He rated 2nd in three pointers made in each of the two previous seasons and 4th the year before.

Hield puts far more pressure on opposing defenses because of his relentless hunting for three point opportunities. And he doesn't just do it in volume, he does it with accuracy too at 40% career rate from downtown.

Hield gets three point opportunities from spot ups, movement (catch and shoot 3s) and off the dribble. He is one of the most varied three point shooters in the league. Behind only the likes of Steph Curry & Damian Lillard who are more dynamic off the dribble. Which is why I'd put Hield more on a par with Klay Thompson more so than them.

I don't care for the volume, but I see where you're coming from on the looking for it and willingness to take them on movement, etc.

Still wouldn't do it, but I see now where you're looking at. We don't know what the Fournier market will look like either, so that's something I'd have to take into consideration. But I like Smart plenty, warts and all.

But that's a key part of what makes three point shooters dangerous. Bobby Portis shot a higher % from 3 than Steph Curry did, but on a vastly lower amount. There are many similar examples, but the general gist of it is that 3P% needs to be considered in accordance with 3PA and 3PAr (percentage of overall field goals that are 3s). Hield's 3PAr was an astonishing 73% - Fournier's was 55%

I just don't value that all that highly. I value the threat of it and scoring it when the opportunity is there more than anything, moving without the ball, the ability to get the shot off... I do recognize willingness is part of it. Not that it isn't valuable, particularly with his accuracy, but it's not the aspect I put most value on when considering you'd have to give up players for him when you have someone who can play a similar role for us and what we need already at our reach.

I mean, can we and should we keep both Fournier and Hield, particularly at their price level? That's a tough call. I'd rather keep Smart and Fournier combo, but I may be swayed if Fournier + Hield make sense for us. Because if keeping both doesn't make sense, then on top of Smart (and whatever you need to trade in order to bring Hield), you'd also lose Fournier... not sure if all that is a net positive for us.

One thing I do favor is his health, and his defense is something that needs to be answered particularly on our team vs. how poorly Sacramento's was (arguably the worst in the league).

[Moranis]

Celtics trade their two best defensive players?

Keep the trade ideas coming, not sure about volume shooters unless bencher types. Like Fox and Hield though

Fox scored more ppg on less attempts per game than Brown. Have a hard time calling him a volume shooter.  Hield is clearly a volume shooter with his over 10 attempts from 3 a game, though his 39.1% this past year was pretty darn good, so you probably don't mind him shooting so much.

Not that I'm agreeing or not with your appreciation of what a volume shooter is, but the comparison between Brown and Fox and how they score is not really that accurate. I'll quote myself:

Their Per-36 are identical in points, PPG in general has a lot of noise if one wants to get into details. Brown is a more efficient shooter, Fox makes up for it getting to the line more, but he's not a good FT shooter. Brown is not great either there, though quite better, but has been trending up.

All this to say that the assertion that Fox shoots less is misleading. Also consider that Fox has a higher USG%, which could also account on why he goes to the line more.

They are different types of offensive players, no question, but Fox is also the #1 option that faces the brunt of opposing defenses.  That is not Brown.  It is easier to stand at the 3 point line and be more efficient when your team doesn't rely on you to create offense.  And it is that offense creation that leads to a lot of Fox's FT's.  He drives to the basket a lot more initiating contact.  Again, he is the #1 option and takes the brunt of that.  That is also part of why Fox has a higher usage, the other part is that he is a much better passer.  And it isn't like his usage is way higher 31 to 29.7 isn't all that much. 

Fox in his 4th year was unquestionably better than Brown in his 4th year.  You could argue pretty easily that Fox in his 4th year was better than Brown in his 5th year as well.  And that is why I'd do the trade.  I just think Fox tops out as a better player.  Couple that with Bagley's potential, Hield's elite volume scoring, and the trade is pretty much a no brainer for me. 

[Moranis]

Can we do this without the Fox/Brown part?

Yeah, that was my thinking too. Also without Bagley. Just a Smart for Hield swap - probably need some salary filler to make it work but based around those two.

It would be so nice to see the Jays have a shooter like Hield next to them. Someone who can terrify opposing teams with his accuracy and volume from 3. Someone opposing teams have to worry about from all over the court.

My question is, why swap Smart for Hield when Fournier is a comparable to not say better shooter than Hield and we don't have to give anyone away to get him?

I don't view Fournier as anywhere close to Hield. Hield is on a par with Klay Thompson.

The difference is volume. Hield has relentless volume. Around 10 three pointers attempts per game. He rated 2nd in three pointers made in each of the two previous seasons and 4th the year before.

Hield puts far more pressure on opposing defenses because of his relentless hunting for three point opportunities. And he doesn't just do it in volume, he does it with accuracy too at 40% career rate from downtown.

Hield gets three point opportunities from spot ups, movement (catch and shoot 3s) and off the dribble. He is one of the most varied three point shooters in the league. Behind only the likes of Steph Curry & Damian Lillard who are more dynamic off the dribble. Which is why I'd put Hield more on a par with Klay Thompson more so than them.

I don't care for the volume, but I see where you're coming from on the looking for it and willingness to take them on movement, etc.

Still wouldn't do it, but I see now where you're looking at. We don't know what the Fournier market will look like either, so that's something I'd have to take into consideration. But I like Smart plenty, warts and all.

But that's a key part of what makes three point shooters dangerous. Bobby Portis shot a higher % from 3 than Steph Curry did, but on a vastly lower amount. There are many similar examples, but the general gist of it is that 3P% needs to be considered in accordance with 3PA and 3PAr (percentage of overall field goals that are 3s). Hield's 3PAr was an astonishing 73% - Fournier's was 55%

Yeah volume is essential.  The top 5 all time 3 point percentage leaders are Steve Kerr, Seth Curry, Hubert Davis, Joe Harris, and Drazen Petrovic.  The next 5 are Jason Kapono, Steph Curry, Tim Legler, Steve Novak, and Kyle Korver.  Of those 10, only 2 i.e. Steph and Korver could really be considered among the greatest shooters ever because those 2 guys are in the top 4 all time of 3 pointers made and the other guys aren't even in the top 100.  Volume matters almost as much as percentage when talking about all time great shooters.  Heck it matters in any given season as well.  That is why they have minimum attempts for players to qualify for things.

[Somebody]

Can we do this without the Fox/Brown part?

Yeah, that was my thinking too. Also without Bagley. Just a Smart for Hield swap - probably need some salary filler to make it work but based around those two.

It would be so nice to see the Jays have a shooter like Hield next to them. Someone who can terrify opposing teams with his accuracy and volume from 3. Someone opposing teams have to worry about from all over the court.

My question is, why swap Smart for Hield when Fournier is a comparable to not say better shooter than Hield and we don't have to give anyone away to get him?

I don't view Fournier as anywhere close to Hield. Hield is on a par with Klay Thompson.

The difference is volume. Hield has relentless volume. Around 10 three pointers attempts per game. He rated 2nd in three pointers made in each of the two previous seasons and 4th the year before.

Hield puts far more pressure on opposing defenses because of his relentless hunting for three point opportunities. And he doesn't just do it in volume, he does it with accuracy too at 40% career rate from downtown.

Hield gets three point opportunities from spot ups, movement (catch and shoot 3s) and off the dribble. He is one of the most varied three point shooters in the league. Behind only the likes of Steph Curry & Damian Lillard who are more dynamic off the dribble. Which is why I'd put Hield more on a par with Klay Thompson more so than them.

I don't care for the volume, but I see where you're coming from on the looking for it and willingness to take them on movement, etc.

Still wouldn't do it, but I see now where you're looking at. We don't know what the Fournier market will look like either, so that's something I'd have to take into consideration. But I like Smart plenty, warts and all.

But that's a key part of what makes three point shooters dangerous. Bobby Portis shot a higher % from 3 than Steph Curry did, but on a vastly lower amount. There are many similar examples, but the general gist of it is that 3P% needs to be considered in accordance with 3PA and 3PAr (percentage of overall field goals that are 3s). Hield's 3PAr was an astonishing 73% - Fournier's was 55%

Yeah volume is essential.  The top 5 all time 3 point percentage leaders are Steve Kerr, Seth Curry, Hubert Davis, Joe Harris, and Drazen Petrovic.  The next 5 are Jason Kapono, Steph Curry, Tim Legler, Steve Novak, and Kyle Korver.  Of those 10, only 2 i.e. Steph and Korver could really be considered among the greatest shooters ever because those 2 guys are in the top 4 all time of 3 pointers made and the other guys aren't even in the top 100.  Volume matters almost as much as percentage when talking about all time great shooters.  Heck it matters in any given season as well.  That is why they have minimum attempts for players to qualify for things.

Offensive role also matters a lot because there's a huge difference between shooting lights out from the corner like Fournier on open shots and buzzing around the court for contested threes as a key offensive piece like Hield.

[droopdog7]

Where is the hell no button?  I am not opposed to trading Jaylen Brown, but only for a more established (and likely older) star. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Celtics trade their two best defensive players?

Keep the trade ideas coming, not sure about volume shooters unless bencher types. Like Fox and Hield though

Fox scored more ppg on less attempts per game than Brown. Have a hard time calling him a volume shooter.  Hield is clearly a volume shooter with his over 10 attempts from 3 a game, though his 39.1% this past year was pretty darn good, so you probably don't mind him shooting so much.

Not that I'm agreeing or not with your appreciation of what a volume shooter is, but the comparison between Brown and Fox and how they score is not really that accurate. I'll quote myself:

Their Per-36 are identical in points, PPG in general has a lot of noise if one wants to get into details. Brown is a more efficient shooter, Fox makes up for it getting to the line more, but he's not a good FT shooter. Brown is not great either there, though quite better, but has been trending up.

All this to say that the assertion that Fox shoots less is misleading. Also consider that Fox has a higher USG%, which could also account on why he goes to the line more.

They are different types of offensive players, no question, but Fox is also the #1 option that faces the brunt of opposing defenses.  That is not Brown.  It is easier to stand at the 3 point line and be more efficient when your team doesn't rely on you to create offense.  And it is that offense creation that leads to a lot of Fox's FT's.  He drives to the basket a lot more initiating contact.  Again, he is the #1 option and takes the brunt of that.  That is also part of why Fox has a higher usage, the other part is that he is a much better passer.  And it isn't like his usage is way higher 31 to 29.7 isn't all that much. 

Fox in his 4th year was unquestionably better than Brown in his 4th year.  You could argue pretty easily that Fox in his 4th year was better than Brown in his 5th year as well.  And that is why I'd do the trade.  I just think Fox tops out as a better player.  Couple that with Bagley's potential, Hield's elite volume scoring, and the trade is pretty much a no brainer for me.

At this point we're just talking hypotheticals. I was just trying to clarify your position that regardless of what one considers a volume shooter, going into the idea of "well Fox scored more in less attempts" is very misleading.

As for USG rate, it's not much but it can account for the slight difference in PPG that you're pointing to, and again, to the increase in FT attempts (which again is partly negative since he's a poor FT shooter, but draws fouls).

Not sure about the #1 option taking the brunt of the defense, Brown is a legit worry for other teams. Hield is a legit worry for other teams. Barnes is a legit worry for other teams. So I'm not going to put too much stock on that assessment other than to say that Fox indeed brings a lot of focus because he's scoring PG which kinda comes with the territory. Brown is often a mismatch for the opposing defender, which is a plus... if in the end it makes him more efficient scorer that's just part of the package.

Fox is also a negative defender, Hield is too. In fact Bagley is at fault as well... [dang], that team is full of bad defenders.

Anyways, not trying to argue against the trade even if I oppose it. I do understand it, but I think the rationalization of Fox over Brown based on the PPG in less shot attempts as part of the reason given is what I was interested in addressing and shouldn't be used in the evaluation.

[Moranis]

Celtics trade their two best defensive players?

Keep the trade ideas coming, not sure about volume shooters unless bencher types. Like Fox and Hield though

Fox scored more ppg on less attempts per game than Brown. Have a hard time calling him a volume shooter.  Hield is clearly a volume shooter with his over 10 attempts from 3 a game, though his 39.1% this past year was pretty darn good, so you probably don't mind him shooting so much.

Not that I'm agreeing or not with your appreciation of what a volume shooter is, but the comparison between Brown and Fox and how they score is not really that accurate. I'll quote myself:

Their Per-36 are identical in points, PPG in general has a lot of noise if one wants to get into details. Brown is a more efficient shooter, Fox makes up for it getting to the line more, but he's not a good FT shooter. Brown is not great either there, though quite better, but has been trending up.

All this to say that the assertion that Fox shoots less is misleading. Also consider that Fox has a higher USG%, which could also account on why he goes to the line more.

They are different types of offensive players, no question, but Fox is also the #1 option that faces the brunt of opposing defenses.  That is not Brown.  It is easier to stand at the 3 point line and be more efficient when your team doesn't rely on you to create offense.  And it is that offense creation that leads to a lot of Fox's FT's.  He drives to the basket a lot more initiating contact.  Again, he is the #1 option and takes the brunt of that.  That is also part of why Fox has a higher usage, the other part is that he is a much better passer.  And it isn't like his usage is way higher 31 to 29.7 isn't all that much. 

Fox in his 4th year was unquestionably better than Brown in his 4th year.  You could argue pretty easily that Fox in his 4th year was better than Brown in his 5th year as well.  And that is why I'd do the trade.  I just think Fox tops out as a better player.  Couple that with Bagley's potential, Hield's elite volume scoring, and the trade is pretty much a no brainer for me.

At this point we're just talking hypotheticals. I was just trying to clarify your position that regardless of what one considers a volume shooter, going into the idea of "well Fox scored more in less attempts" is very misleading.

As for USG rate, it's not much but it can account for the slight difference in PPG that you're pointing to, and again, to the increase in FT attempts (which again is partly negative since he's a poor FT shooter, but draws fouls).

Not sure about the #1 option taking the brunt of the defense, Brown is a legit worry for other teams. Hield is a legit worry for other teams. Barnes is a legit worry for other teams. So I'm not going to put too much stock on that assessment other than to say that Fox indeed brings a lot of focus because he's scoring PG which kinda comes with the territory. Brown is often a mismatch for the opposing defender, which is a plus... if in the end it makes him more efficient scorer that's just part of the package.

Fox is also a negative defender, Hield is too. In fact Bagley is at fault as well... [dang], that team is full of bad defenders.

Anyways, not trying to argue against the trade even if I oppose it. I do understand it, but I think the rationalization of Fox over Brown based on the PPG in less shot attempts as part of the reason given is what I was interested in addressing and shouldn't be used in the evaluation.

I mentioned that because you described Fox as a volume shooter.  If Fox is a volume shooter than so is Brown.  That is the point I was making.  And Hield is a volume shooter, but not in the negative way, which was also your implication with the tone and context of your post.  You made it seem like Hield is Smart from 3 and that obviously isn't the case.  Hield is one of the best shooters in the sport.  You want him taking 3's and taking a lot of them.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Celtics trade their two best defensive players?

Keep the trade ideas coming, not sure about volume shooters unless bencher types. Like Fox and Hield though

Fox scored more ppg on less attempts per game than Brown. Have a hard time calling him a volume shooter.  Hield is clearly a volume shooter with his over 10 attempts from 3 a game, though his 39.1% this past year was pretty darn good, so you probably don't mind him shooting so much.

Not that I'm agreeing or not with your appreciation of what a volume shooter is, but the comparison between Brown and Fox and how they score is not really that accurate. I'll quote myself:

Their Per-36 are identical in points, PPG in general has a lot of noise if one wants to get into details. Brown is a more efficient shooter, Fox makes up for it getting to the line more, but he's not a good FT shooter. Brown is not great either there, though quite better, but has been trending up.

All this to say that the assertion that Fox shoots less is misleading. Also consider that Fox has a higher USG%, which could also account on why he goes to the line more.

They are different types of offensive players, no question, but Fox is also the #1 option that faces the brunt of opposing defenses.  That is not Brown.  It is easier to stand at the 3 point line and be more efficient when your team doesn't rely on you to create offense.  And it is that offense creation that leads to a lot of Fox's FT's.  He drives to the basket a lot more initiating contact.  Again, he is the #1 option and takes the brunt of that.  That is also part of why Fox has a higher usage, the other part is that he is a much better passer.  And it isn't like his usage is way higher 31 to 29.7 isn't all that much. 

Fox in his 4th year was unquestionably better than Brown in his 4th year.  You could argue pretty easily that Fox in his 4th year was better than Brown in his 5th year as well.  And that is why I'd do the trade.  I just think Fox tops out as a better player.  Couple that with Bagley's potential, Hield's elite volume scoring, and the trade is pretty much a no brainer for me.

At this point we're just talking hypotheticals. I was just trying to clarify your position that regardless of what one considers a volume shooter, going into the idea of "well Fox scored more in less attempts" is very misleading.

As for USG rate, it's not much but it can account for the slight difference in PPG that you're pointing to, and again, to the increase in FT attempts (which again is partly negative since he's a poor FT shooter, but draws fouls).

Not sure about the #1 option taking the brunt of the defense, Brown is a legit worry for other teams. Hield is a legit worry for other teams. Barnes is a legit worry for other teams. So I'm not going to put too much stock on that assessment other than to say that Fox indeed brings a lot of focus because he's scoring PG which kinda comes with the territory. Brown is often a mismatch for the opposing defender, which is a plus... if in the end it makes him more efficient scorer that's just part of the package.

Fox is also a negative defender, Hield is too. In fact Bagley is at fault as well... [dang], that team is full of bad defenders.

Anyways, not trying to argue against the trade even if I oppose it. I do understand it, but I think the rationalization of Fox over Brown based on the PPG in less shot attempts as part of the reason given is what I was interested in addressing and shouldn't be used in the evaluation.

I mentioned that because you described Fox as a volume shooter.  If Fox is a volume shooter than so is Brown.  That is the point I was making.  And Hield is a volume shooter, but not in the negative way, which was also your implication with the tone and context of your post.  You made it seem like Hield is Smart from 3 and that obviously isn't the case.  Hield is one of the best shooters in the sport.  You want him taking 3's and taking a lot of them.

I didn't describe him as a volume shooter (at least I didn't that I recall and if I did it wasn't in the context as opposed to Brown), it was another poster. My prior argument was about efficiency. I interrupted the argument with the other poster to just add that clarification of Brown vs. Fox and their shooting and PPG.

[Who]

Jaylen Brown's TS% is 58.6% (58.3% last year)
DeAaron Fox's TS% is 56.5% (55.8% last year)

Jaylen Brown is the more efficient scorer.

The league average for TS% has been increasing. I think it has risen to somewhere around 56% now. So Fox is around league average for scoring efficiency. Jaylen is comfortably above average in scoring efficiency.

[Somebody]

Jaylen Brown's TS% is 58.6% (58.3% last year)
DeAaron Fox's TS% is 56.5% (55.8% last year)

Jaylen Brown is the more efficient scorer.

The league average for TS% has been increasing. I think it has risen to somewhere around 56% now. So Fox is around league average for scoring efficiency. Jaylen is comfortably above average in scoring efficiency.

It's over 57% now lol - Fox has never been an average efficiency scorer in his career, much less an above average one.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Jaylen Brown's TS% is 58.6% (58.3% last year)
DeAaron Fox's TS% is 56.5% (55.8% last year)

Jaylen Brown is the more efficient scorer.

The league average for TS% has been increasing. I think it has risen to somewhere around 56% now. So Fox is around league average for scoring efficiency. Jaylen is comfortably above average in scoring efficiency.

Exactly, didn't want to go too technical, but that's right of it. Fox makes up for it by getting to the line more, the problem is that he's a poor FT shooter.

[Somebody]

Jaylen Brown's TS% is 58.6% (58.3% last year)
DeAaron Fox's TS% is 56.5% (55.8% last year)

Jaylen Brown is the more efficient scorer.

The league average for TS% has been increasing. I think it has risen to somewhere around 56% now. So Fox is around league average for scoring efficiency. Jaylen is comfortably above average in scoring efficiency.

Exactly, didn't want to go too technical, but that's right of it. Fox makes up for it by getting to the line more, the problem is that he's a poor FT shooter.

70% is definitely enough to bump up your TS%. His problem is that his shooting tails off from 16ish feet onwards and he take a ton of shots beyond that range.

[Who]

Jaylen Brown's TS% is 58.6% (58.3% last year)
DeAaron Fox's TS% is 56.5% (55.8% last year)

Jaylen Brown is the more efficient scorer.

The league average for TS% has been increasing. I think it has risen to somewhere around 56% now. So Fox is around league average for scoring efficiency. Jaylen is comfortably above average in scoring efficiency.

It's over 57% now lol - Fox has never been an average efficiency scorer in his career, much less an above average one.

57% - That is insane. Wow.

It feels like it was only a few years ago that it was 54%. It just keeps going up and up ... and up some more. Such a large difference in a short space of time.

All these extra 3s players are taking seem to be fueling the rise.

[Somebody]

Jaylen Brown's TS% is 58.6% (58.3% last year)
DeAaron Fox's TS% is 56.5% (55.8% last year)

Jaylen Brown is the more efficient scorer.

The league average for TS% has been increasing. I think it has risen to somewhere around 56% now. So Fox is around league average for scoring efficiency. Jaylen is comfortably above average in scoring efficiency.

It's over 57% now lol - Fox has never been an average efficiency scorer in his career, much less an above average one.

57% - That is insane. Wow.

It feels like it was only a few years ago that it was 54%. It just keeps going up and up ... and up some more.

All these extra 3s players are taking seem to be fueling the rise.

Yeah it's incredible. And to think that people were debating about whether they should consider rTS% or not in a historical draft a year or two ago

Also you're correct, I think the league average in as recent as 2016ish was 54%.

[Hoopvortex]

Boston gives up the two best players in the deal and nets yet another contract for a crowded roster.

Marvin Bagley?

This deal is not EVER going to happen, in any case, nor anything like it.

I’d have thought we were done with undervaluing Jaylen Brown.