would kemba for porzingis work? (Merged)

[Quetzalcoatl]

There is one trade that is staring us all in the face and I think makes sense for all teams:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yya82ke5

Kevin Love to the Celtics
Kemba Walker to the Mavericks
Kristaps Porzingis to the Cavs

K-Love can do his 3rd banana routine in Boston, which already lead to a championship.  He also only has 2 years left like Kemba so it won't really matter from a cap standpoint.

Kemba would have to play off Doncic, but he can shoot and help create and only has 2 years on his contract.  This would get the Mavs off Porzingis a year earlier and I believe the LD/KP relationship is pretty bad at this point.

Cleveland has two young PGs that they want to give run, but Porzingis would get to be the star and wouldn't compete for the ball like Kemba.  Us & the Mavs would probably each have to give up a pick or something, but I think they might actually go for this.  Kevin Love is pretty much toxic there.

What do you think?

[PhoSita]

My thought re K-Love is that I didn't like the Celtics being a bottom 10 defensive team this past year and I would not like them to make moves that serve to cement their status as a bad defensive team.

[slamtheking]

There is one trade that is staring us all in the face and I think makes sense for all teams:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yya82ke5

Kevin Love to the Celtics
Kemba Walker to the Mavericks
Kristaps Porzingis to the Cavs

K-Love can do his 3rd banana routine in Boston, which already lead to a championship.  He also only has 2 years left like Kemba so it won't really matter from a cap standpoint.

Kemba would have to play off Doncic, but he can shoot and help create and only has 2 years on his contract.  This would get the Mavs off Porzingis a year earlier and I believe the LD/KP relationship is pretty bad at this point.

Cleveland has two young PGs that they want to give run, but Porzingis would get to be the star and wouldn't compete for the ball like Kemba.  Us & the Mavs would probably each have to give up a pick or something, but I think they might actually go for this.  Kevin Love is pretty much toxic there.

What do you think?

I think it sucks.

we get the worst player while giving up the one who's had more all-star-like performances this past season even while missing a high number of games.

[Csfan1984]

I think we need to start clearing cap space.  No contracts beyond two years.

So it probably makes sense to trade anybody who has value and who will hit free agency between now and 2023, right?

I don't know about Roy, but for me I'd say you have to have a balance because you have to still having a winning environment to attract FAs. So maybe you deal some and allow others to simply expire.

[footey]

All this talk about clearing cap space for another free agent who may or may not want to sign with us.  I'm not so sure that is the way to go here. 

Our new reality: The Celtics have to think more like a small market team.  Like Utah and Milwaukee. Or Phoenix. Continue to build from the ground up.  Sure, if you can find someone to unload Kemba's contract without killing us, do it.  But not if it means giving up draft capital.  Or if it means Taking back more bad salary. 

Why strip the roster with the 10% hope that Joel Embiid will want to sign here when he becomes an UFA?  That is Danny Ainge mindset, and frankly, it has hurt us more than helped us.  Especially lately. 

Build the team up intelligently. Patiently.  Don't assume that we will land a game changing FA. Because chances are very unlikely that we will.

This does not mean that owners must avoid the luxury tax. I agree with Roy that they should pay it, even if they don't feel extremely confident that we will win it all next year.  The Nets, given their age, like the Lakers, are vulnerable to losing key guys in the playoffs.  Ditto the Sixers.  The Bucks don't scare me. 

We have two great cornerstones under several years contract.  We have some young guys who are developing into real contributors: Rob, Romeo, Aaron and Payton.  We need another couple of guys; that is all.

On the fence about Fournier. PhoSita makes valid point on the after tax cost of his salary.

[RJ87]

My thought re K-Love is that I didn't like the Celtics being a bottom 10 defensive team this past year and I would not like them to make moves that serve to cement their status as a bad defensive team.

I'm not sure you'd be better with Porzingis. Maybe a season ago, but he's lost more lateral quickness after the meniscus tear/repair. And 7 footers with lower body issues don't usually trend upwards, I don't want the team to be strapped down by another albatross max contract for a guy who decidedly isn't a max player.

For all of Love's warts and own injury concerns, his skillset would make a ton of sense next to the Jays. He's a still a great passer, can hit an open 3, and rebound at a high level. A potential starting lineup of Smart/Brown/Tatum/Love/Williams is a much more balanced lineup than we currently have.

I'd love a defensive stud 1 through 5, but I think we have to be prepared to take back a flawed player in a Kemba trade.

[Quetzalcoatl]

There is one trade that is staring us all in the face and I think makes sense for all teams:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yya82ke5

Kevin Love to the Celtics
Kemba Walker to the Mavericks
Kristaps Porzingis to the Cavs

K-Love can do his 3rd banana routine in Boston, which already lead to a championship.  He also only has 2 years left like Kemba so it won't really matter from a cap standpoint.

Kemba would have to play off Doncic, but he can shoot and help create and only has 2 years on his contract.  This would get the Mavs off Porzingis a year earlier and I believe the LD/KP relationship is pretty bad at this point.

Cleveland has two young PGs that they want to give run, but Porzingis would get to be the star and wouldn't compete for the ball like Kemba.  Us & the Mavs would probably each have to give up a pick or something, but I think they might actually go for this.  Kevin Love is pretty much toxic there.

What do you think?

I think it sucks.

we get the worst player while giving up the one who's had more all-star-like performances this past season even while missing a high number of games.

I have a hard time thinking that Kemba isn't the worst player.  Kevin Love is just being a diva, he is the only one of those three that has won at a high level.  Kemba is a regular season player who stinks when the stage is big.

[footey]

There is one trade that is staring us all in the face and I think makes sense for all teams:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yya82ke5

Kevin Love to the Celtics
Kemba Walker to the Mavericks
Kristaps Porzingis to the Cavs

K-Love can do his 3rd banana routine in Boston, which already lead to a championship.  He also only has 2 years left like Kemba so it won't really matter from a cap standpoint.

Kemba would have to play off Doncic, but he can shoot and help create and only has 2 years on his contract.  This would get the Mavs off Porzingis a year earlier and I believe the LD/KP relationship is pretty bad at this point.

Cleveland has two young PGs that they want to give run, but Porzingis would get to be the star and wouldn't compete for the ball like Kemba.  Us & the Mavs would probably each have to give up a pick or something, but I think they might actually go for this.  Kevin Love is pretty much toxic there.

What do you think?

I think it sucks.

we get the worst player while giving up the one who's had more all-star-like performances this past season even while missing a high number of games.

I have a hard time thinking that Kemba isn't the worst player.  Kevin Love is just being a diva, he is the only one of those three that has won at a high level.  Kemba is a regular season player who stinks when the stage is big.

You'd start Love alongside Rob Williams at the power forward?  Can we manage that defensively?

[Celtics2021]

There is one trade that is staring us all in the face and I think makes sense for all teams:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yya82ke5

Kevin Love to the Celtics
Kemba Walker to the Mavericks
Kristaps Porzingis to the Cavs

K-Love can do his 3rd banana routine in Boston, which already lead to a championship.  He also only has 2 years left like Kemba so it won't really matter from a cap standpoint.

Kemba would have to play off Doncic, but he can shoot and help create and only has 2 years on his contract.  This would get the Mavs off Porzingis a year earlier and I believe the LD/KP relationship is pretty bad at this point.

Cleveland has two young PGs that they want to give run, but Porzingis would get to be the star and wouldn't compete for the ball like Kemba.  Us & the Mavs would probably each have to give up a pick or something, but I think they might actually go for this.  Kevin Love is pretty much toxic there.

What do you think?

I think it sucks.

we get the worst player while giving up the one who's had more all-star-like performances this past season even while missing a high number of games.

I have a hard time thinking that Kemba isn't the worst player.  Kevin Love is just being a diva, he is the only one of those three that has won at a high level.  Kemba is a regular season player who stinks when the stage is big.

Kevin “I’m a champion because LeBron carried me while I averaged 8 points in the finals” Love?  That Kevin Love?

[PhoSita]

My thought re K-Love is that I didn't like the Celtics being a bottom 10 defensive team this past year and I would not like them to make moves that serve to cement their status as a bad defensive team.

I'm not sure you'd be better with Porzingis. Maybe a season ago, but he's lost more lateral quickness after the meniscus tear/repair. And 7 footers with lower body issues don't usually trend upwards, I don't want the team to be strapped down by another albatross max contract for a guy who decidedly isn't a max player.

I don't want Porzingis either.

[PhoSita]

All this talk about clearing cap space for another free agent who may or may not want to sign with us.  I'm not so sure that is the way to go here. 

Our new reality: The Celtics have to think more like a small market team.  Like Utah and Milwaukee. Or Phoenix. Continue to build from the ground up.  Sure, if you can find someone to unload Kemba's contract without killing us, do it.  But not if it means giving up draft capital.  Or if it means Taking back more bad salary. 

Why strip the roster with the 10% hope that Joel Embiid will want to sign here when he becomes an UFA?  That is Danny Ainge mindset, and frankly, it has hurt us more than helped us.  Especially lately. 

Build the team up intelligently. Patiently.  Don't assume that we will land a game changing FA. Because chances are very unlikely that we will.

This does not mean that owners must avoid the luxury tax. I agree with Roy that they should pay it, even if they don't feel extremely confident that we will win it all next year.  The Nets, given their age, like the Lakers, are vulnerable to losing key guys in the playoffs.  Ditto the Sixers.  The Bucks don't scare me. 

We have two great cornerstones under several years contract.  We have some young guys who are developing into real contributors: Rob, Romeo, Aaron and Payton.  We need another couple of guys; that is all.

On the fence about Fournier. PhoSita makes valid point on the after tax cost of his salary.

I think this comes back to the question of what the team's ultimate goal is.

Is it winning titles above all else?

If so, going all-out to clear the books to go after Embiid (or Jokic?) in 2023 makes sense.  It's a long shot, but still probably a higher chance at actually winning a title than just building a solid foundation around Tatum and Brown.

Is the goal to try to be as good as you can each season without compromising your ability to be good in the future?

If that's the case, going for the more solid, from-the-ground-up approach you're suggesting makes sense, I think.

But that approach is probably also less likely to result in serious title contention unless Tatum and/or Brown take another big leap.

[Roy H.]

All this talk about clearing cap space for another free agent who may or may not want to sign with us.  I'm not so sure that is the way to go here. 

Our new reality: The Celtics have to think more like a small market team.  Like Utah and Milwaukee. Or Phoenix. Continue to build from the ground up.  Sure, if you can find someone to unload Kemba's contract without killing us, do it.  But not if it means giving up draft capital.  Or if it means Taking back more bad salary. 

Why strip the roster with the 10% hope that Joel Embiid will want to sign here when he becomes an UFA?  That is Danny Ainge mindset, and frankly, it has hurt us more than helped us.  Especially lately. 

Almost all teams that win titles either have three all-star (or better) players, or two top-five players. 

What's your preferred path to landing a third star?  I think we've tried the "fill in the roster around the Jays" approach, and I don't think it's going to get us any further than we've gotten.

[slamtheking]

There is one trade that is staring us all in the face and I think makes sense for all teams:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yya82ke5

Kevin Love to the Celtics
Kemba Walker to the Mavericks
Kristaps Porzingis to the Cavs

K-Love can do his 3rd banana routine in Boston, which already lead to a championship.  He also only has 2 years left like Kemba so it won't really matter from a cap standpoint.

Kemba would have to play off Doncic, but he can shoot and help create and only has 2 years on his contract.  This would get the Mavs off Porzingis a year earlier and I believe the LD/KP relationship is pretty bad at this point.

Cleveland has two young PGs that they want to give run, but Porzingis would get to be the star and wouldn't compete for the ball like Kemba.  Us & the Mavs would probably each have to give up a pick or something, but I think they might actually go for this.  Kevin Love is pretty much toxic there.

What do you think?

I think it sucks.

we get the worst player while giving up the one who's had more all-star-like performances this past season even while missing a high number of games.

I have a hard time thinking that Kemba isn't the worst player.  Kevin Love is just being a diva, he is the only one of those three that has won at a high level.  Kemba is a regular season player who stinks when the stage is big.

Kevin “I’m a champion because LeBron carried me while I averaged 8 points in the finals” Love?  That Kevin Love?

that was my thought as well.  Scal won at a high level too based on that criteria.  wouldn't make him a better player than Kemba either.

[Roy H.]

Kevin Love is just being a diva, he is the only one of those three that has won at a high level.  Kemba is a regular season player who stinks when the stage is big.

Perhaps highest level.



For whatever it's worth, Love averages 15 ppg / 10 rpg / 2 apg in his playoff career.  In the playoffs, his production has gone down from the regular season.  He's not somebody who excels "when the stage is big", and unlike Kemba, he doesn't have the excuse of being severely outmatched in talent or having his playoff play severely affected by injuries.

[PhoSita]

All this talk about clearing cap space for another free agent who may or may not want to sign with us.  I'm not so sure that is the way to go here. 

Our new reality: The Celtics have to think more like a small market team.  Like Utah and Milwaukee. Or Phoenix. Continue to build from the ground up.  Sure, if you can find someone to unload Kemba's contract without killing us, do it.  But not if it means giving up draft capital.  Or if it means Taking back more bad salary. 

Why strip the roster with the 10% hope that Joel Embiid will want to sign here when he becomes an UFA?  That is Danny Ainge mindset, and frankly, it has hurt us more than helped us.  Especially lately. 

Almost all teams that win titles either have three all-star (or better) players, or two top-five players. 

What's your preferred path to landing a third star?  I think we've tried the "fill in the roster around the Jays" approach, and I don't think it's going to get us any further than we've gotten.

I'd argue we haven't actually seen a team with the Jays at the All-Star / All-NBA level that they're at now with a deep, experienced, and complementary supporting cast.  The 2018 team was reasonably deep even without Kyrie and Hayward playing, but that was rookie Tatum and sophomore JB.

At the same time, I'm not especially confident that the team is going to be able to build that kind of supporting cast in the next year or two.