Chuck & Shaq Are Right: Jayson & Jaylen Do Not Play Together, They Take Turns

[wiley]

At the moment I have trouble picturing a ball movement offense while keeping both Jays.

I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles). 

Would the Magic do Tatum for Jonathan Isaac and a top 3 lottery pick in this year's draft? (only do it if one of those lottery picks is top 3 or 4, maybe 5,  in this year's draft.  Plus a future first round pick and this year's Magic second round (pick 33).  The Magic would surely keep their second lottery pick from this year. 

Suggs
Fournier
Brown
Issac
R. Williams

plus pick 16, pick 33, Smart, Pritchard, Romeo, Thompson, Nesmith, (Kemba to trade), G. Will, Magic first round pick 2022, Yam

[Rondo9]

I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles). 

I've been in sports forums for years, but this is the first time I've seen a fanbase wanting to trade their star player in their prime.

[wiley]

I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles). 

I've been in sports forums for years, but this is the first time I've seen a fanbase wanting to trade their star player in their prime.

nitpicks:
1."want" is a bit strong.  I have no clue what the best moves are.
2.  I'm not the fanbase.

[Ogaju]

Jaylen is never going to be a number one guy, and clearly Tatum is poised to be the next Durant. Whenever these two play together, they just take turns and do not exactly jive like MJ/Pippen or LeBron/Wade. We gotta make a change. Really think we gotta move Brown for another young all-star on their second contract (KAT), or a prospective all-star still on their rookie contract (maybe a top two pick this year if a team is interested in taking Brown instead of drafting a top guy).

Thoughts on whether Jayson and Jaylen play together, whether we should move one of the two and, if so, who we should move them for.

They may take turns playing ISO ball, but perhaps it’s because the team doesn’t have a real point guard to run the offense and get guys open looks. If we had CP3 instead of Kemba this thread doesn’t exist.

Payton says hi.

[liam]

I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles). 

I've been in sports forums for years, but this is the first time I've seen a fanbase wanting to trade their star player in their prime.

You don't Trade stars in their primes. It never works out!

[Who]

This team misses Hayward in the worst way.  Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Kemba - all are shoot first, pass 2nd. They need to do something to change that.  Tatum is developing into a better passer but he can't be the only one who gives the ball up.

If I were any good at quickly finding them, I'd look into statistics as to how great players progressed, regarding assists and the like.

I'm super curious if this might be an experience thing.

.edit: because I agree, and think you're 100% right.

I have a feeling that players today develop their passing / assists / creation for others easier than decades past.

My theory is that the (1) spaced out courts and (2) more repetitive offensive sequences [PnRs, drive and kicks] where players can learn actions easier, where they can learn where the passes are and slowly develop those passes is easier today than in decades past. And that the spaced out courts make it easier to see those passes. Guys are not passing in as much traffic as before. In closed spaces.

There also might be something to do with passing from a driving position where you start with the defenses in front of you and you can see everything ... versus ... catching in the midpost or low post and having defenders in front, behind, to the left and to the right of you. You can some but not everything. There is more fear about what is happening behind you - in your blind spots ... whereas from the dribble from 25 feet from the basket, you have no blind spots. You do see everything. You can map the floor easier. Where are the defenders, where are my teammates, what are the opportunities.

I have had this feeling for awhile but I think this is what is happening in today's NBA and why we should have more confidence in our young wings developing their passing in today's NBA than in previous decades.

[Ilikesports17]

Jaylen is never going to be a number one guy, and clearly Tatum is poised to be the next Durant. Whenever these two play together, they just take turns and do not exactly jive like MJ/Pippen or LeBron/Wade. We gotta make a change. Really think we gotta move Brown for another young all-star on their second contract (KAT), or a prospective all-star still on their rookie contract (maybe a top two pick this year if a team is interested in taking Brown instead of drafting a top guy).

Thoughts on whether Jayson and Jaylen play together, whether we should move one of the two and, if so, who we should move them for.

Lebron and Wade took some time to figure it out.

They 100% just took turns year 1

[BitterJim]

This team misses Hayward in the worst way.  Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Kemba - all are shoot first, pass 2nd. They need to do something to change that.  Tatum is developing into a better passer but he can't be the only one who gives the ball up.

The team misses Horford in the worst way, Hayward made up for most of what he added to the offensive flow but not everything. I'd rather see another big that can run the offense out of the high post (and play good defense) than another playmaking wing.

It also lets us keep JB and JT at the 2 and 3, where I like their size advantage (on O and D)

[libermaniac]

Trade Jaylen for KAT only if you want to derail everything. KAT is lazy, me-first and has never won anything.

[pearljammer10]

I just don't see anything that backs this up. Or rather, anything that can't be remedied by a good offensive philosophy. I think it's much more a function of our offence that we often have one on one isolation with wings in the corner than it is those two not having chemistry.

I saw no chemistry whatsoever between the two in the first and potentially only season where they were the top two players by a wide margin. It just doesn’t feel like it’s working. The offense never moved like this in prior years. It feels like maybe Jaylen wants this to be his team, but it’s clearly Tatum’s and he’s being nice about it. It feels like Durant/Westbrook back in the day, frankly. We’d hum better with Tatum/Hayward as our top two than we did with Tatum/Brown.

I feel like you're, to a certain extent, pontificating. Your opinions aren't really provable and are just kinda that - your opinion.

I'm not sure where you're inventing these personal riffs like Brown thinking he's the alpha. We also barely saw them play together in a full strength team, if ever. Tatum had COVID, Brown had niggling injuries then his major injury, Kemba was injured, Smart was injured, Thompson was injured, Timelord was injured, Fournier was sick, Theis was traded and Langford was injured. It seems wrong to try to come to conclusions about the chemistry of our star players when our team was totally disjointed.

Well, it’s not just my opinion. Charles Barkley and Shaq both agreed that they don’t have chemistry together. I know chemistry when I see it, and these two don’t have it when it’s just the two of them at the top. They literally just took turns all year. It doesn’t work that way and no coach can make that work, not even the spirit of Red himself.

You're just citing two other people's opinions.

[Vermont Green]

So I guess the Durant comparison is meant to mean that Durant played in OKC and then left without winning a title.  Could happen, but Tatum is signed for what, 5 years?

As to production, in Durant's 4th season, at age 23, he averaged 27 pts and 2.7 assists.  His assists ticked up each year after that to about 5-6.  Tatum in his 4th season, age 23, is at 4.3 assts/gm and has increased every season.  I think Tatum is better right now than Durant was at that point in his career.  And no reason to believe that he won't continue to improve as Durant did.  Durant is longer, but Tatum is better than Durant was at that point in time.

I feel this narrative is just reactionary.  Brown and Tatum can play together just fine.  The problem with this team this season was not Brown and Tatum.  They both played great, both earned all star selections.  Shaq and Barkley just talk as they should, that is what they are there for.

[Goldstar88]

Jaylen is never going to be a number one guy, and clearly Tatum is poised to be the next Durant. Whenever these two play together, they just take turns and do not exactly jive like MJ/Pippen or LeBron/Wade. We gotta make a change. Really think we gotta move Brown for another young all-star on their second contract (KAT), or a prospective all-star still on their rookie contract (maybe a top two pick this year if a team is interested in taking Brown instead of drafting a top guy).

Thoughts on whether Jayson and Jaylen play together, whether we should move one of the two and, if so, who we should move them for.

They may take turns playing ISO ball, but perhaps it’s because the team doesn’t have a real point guard to run the offense and get guys open looks. If we had CP3 instead of Kemba this thread doesn’t exist.

Payton says hi.

Maybe someday, but right now he’s an unproven rookie. This team can’t wait around a few years and hope that he develops into a starting caliber PG.

[SHAQATTACK]

Kyrie and Bron played had an unusual relationship, but it was always clear Bron was dominate.  Bron played and controlled the ball , and the team.   When Bron was resting , Kyrie came in or took over nearly completely scoring and making the plays to keep Cavs stable till Bron could get back in .   The Jays are very similar in personality,   Both seem willing to play the number two role ...where Kyrie eventually got resentful being Robin role.   

[Celtics4ever]

Kyrie and Bron played had an unusual relationship, but it was always clear Bron was dominate.  Bron played and controlled the ball , and the team.   When Bron was resting , Kyrie came in or took over nearly completely scoring and making the plays to keep Cavs stable till Bron could get back in .

Kyrie took over too sometimes when the game mattered.  Good ole Lebron still quitting on his team mates.

[moiso]

This team misses Hayward in the worst way.  Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Kemba - all are shoot first, pass 2nd. They need to do something to change that.  Tatum is developing into a better passer but he can't be the only one who gives the ball up.

If I were any good at quickly finding them, I'd look into statistics as to how great players progressed, regarding assists and the like.

I'm super curious if this might be an experience thing.

.edit: because I agree, and think you're 100% right.

I have a feeling that players today develop their passing / assists / creation for others easier than decades past.

My theory is that the (1) spaced out courts and (2) more repetitive offensive sequences [PnRs, drive and kicks] where players can learn actions easier, where they can learn where the passes are and slowly develop those passes is easier today than in decades past. And that the spaced out courts make it easier to see those passes. Guys are not passing in as much traffic as before. In closed spaces.

There also might be something to do with passing from a driving position where you start with the defenses in front of you and you can see everything ... versus ... catching in the midpost or low post and having defenders in front, behind, to the left and to the right of you. You can some but not everything. There is more fear about what is happening behind you - in your blind spots ... whereas from the dribble from 25 feet from the basket, you have no blind spots. You do see everything. You can map the floor easier. Where are the defenders, where are my teammates, what are the opportunities.

I have had this feeling for awhile but I think this is what is happening in today's NBA and why we should have more confidence in our young wings developing their passing in today's NBA than in previous decades.

I think you are right.  TP and great post.