Author Topic: Chuck & Shaq Are Right: Jayson & Jaylen Do Not Play Together, They Take Turns  (Read 10370 times)

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Offline tenn_smoothie

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I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles).


I've been in sports forums for years, but this is the first time I've seen a fanbase wanting to trade their star player in their prime.

Trading a star in his prime has happened in different sports - not sure if you mean the move was also backed by the fanbase as well as management. These days, the stars simply demand to be traded under the threat of becoming a complete head-case cancer.
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Offline tenn_smoothie

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I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles). 




I've been in sports forums for years, but this is the first time I've seen a fanbase wanting to trade their star player in their prime.

You don't Trade stars in their primes. It never works out!

Sure it does.

Jimmie Johnson's Cowboys traded away Herschel Walker for eventual Super Bowl contributors.
Bucks traded Jabbar for players that kept them contenders for years. Lakers were mediocre til Magic arrived
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Offline liam

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I might consider trading Tatum (more in return...and I think Brown can adjust himself a bit more to various styles). 




I've been in sports forums for years, but this is the first time I've seen a fanbase wanting to trade their star player in their prime.

You don't Trade stars in their primes. It never works out!

Sure it does.

Jimmie Johnson's Cowboys traded away Herschel Walker for eventual Super Bowl contributors.
Bucks traded Jabbar for players that kept them contenders for years. Lakers were mediocre til Magic arrived

How many championships did the Bucks win after they traded Kareem, asking for a friend?

Offline Somebody

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This team misses Hayward in the worst way.  Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Kemba - all are shoot first, pass 2nd. They need to do something to change that.  Tatum is developing into a better passer but he can't be the only one who gives the ball up.

If I were any good at quickly finding them, I'd look into statistics as to how great players progressed, regarding assists and the like.

I'm super curious if this might be an experience thing.

.edit: because I agree, and think you're 100% right.

I have a feeling that players today develop their passing / assists / creation for others easier than decades past.

My theory is that the (1) spaced out courts and (2) more repetitive offensive sequences [PnRs, drive and kicks] where players can learn actions easier, where they can learn where the passes are and slowly develop those passes is easier today than in decades past. And that the spaced out courts make it easier to see those passes. Guys are not passing in as much traffic as before. In closed spaces.

There also might be something to do with passing from a driving position where you start with the defenses in front of you and you can see everything ... versus ... catching in the midpost or low post and having defenders in front, behind, to the left and to the right of you. You can some but not everything. There is more fear about what is happening behind you - in your blind spots ... whereas from the dribble from 25 feet from the basket, you have no blind spots. You do see everything. You can map the floor easier. Where are the defenders, where are my teammates, what are the opportunities.

I have had this feeling for awhile but I think this is what is happening in today's NBA and why we should have more confidence in our young wings developing their passing in today's NBA than in previous decades.
This is true. Kawhi Leonard made the leap to a lead creator at the ripe old age of 28 while LeBron slowly developed into a world class playmaker and passer as he aged throughout the 2010s. Obviously we shouldn't expect Tatum and Brown to develop like this (Kawhi and LeBron have some of the greatest peaks in NBA history, especially the latter), but we can expect them to continue refining this aspect of their game as they age and mature.
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Offline gouki88

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This team misses Hayward in the worst way.  Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Kemba - all are shoot first, pass 2nd. They need to do something to change that.  Tatum is developing into a better passer but he can't be the only one who gives the ball up.

If I were any good at quickly finding them, I'd look into statistics as to how great players progressed, regarding assists and the like.

I'm super curious if this might be an experience thing.

.edit: because I agree, and think you're 100% right.

I have a feeling that players today develop their passing / assists / creation for others easier than decades past.

My theory is that the (1) spaced out courts and (2) more repetitive offensive sequences [PnRs, drive and kicks] where players can learn actions easier, where they can learn where the passes are and slowly develop those passes is easier today than in decades past. And that the spaced out courts make it easier to see those passes. Guys are not passing in as much traffic as before. In closed spaces.

There also might be something to do with passing from a driving position where you start with the defenses in front of you and you can see everything ... versus ... catching in the midpost or low post and having defenders in front, behind, to the left and to the right of you. You can some but not everything. There is more fear about what is happening behind you - in your blind spots ... whereas from the dribble from 25 feet from the basket, you have no blind spots. You do see everything. You can map the floor easier. Where are the defenders, where are my teammates, what are the opportunities.

I have had this feeling for awhile but I think this is what is happening in today's NBA and why we should have more confidence in our young wings developing their passing in today's NBA than in previous decades.
This is true. Kawhi Leonard made the leap to a lead creator at the ripe old age of 28 while LeBron slowly developed into a world class playmaker and passer as he aged throughout the 2010s. Obviously we shouldn't expect Tatum and Brown to develop like this (Kawhi and LeBron have some of the greatest peaks in NBA history, especially the latter), but we can expect them to continue refining this aspect of their game as they age and mature.
Even guys like Horford, Sabonis, Butler and Durant have transitioned from good passers at their position to strong-elite passers at their position.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

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This team misses Hayward in the worst way.  Tatum, Jaylen, Smart, Kemba - all are shoot first, pass 2nd. They need to do something to change that.  Tatum is developing into a better passer but he can't be the only one who gives the ball up.

If I were any good at quickly finding them, I'd look into statistics as to how great players progressed, regarding assists and the like.

I'm super curious if this might be an experience thing.

.edit: because I agree, and think you're 100% right.

I have a feeling that players today develop their passing / assists / creation for others easier than decades past.

My theory is that the (1) spaced out courts and (2) more repetitive offensive sequences [PnRs, drive and kicks] where players can learn actions easier, where they can learn where the passes are and slowly develop those passes is easier today than in decades past. And that the spaced out courts make it easier to see those passes. Guys are not passing in as much traffic as before. In closed spaces.

There also might be something to do with passing from a driving position where you start with the defenses in front of you and you can see everything ... versus ... catching in the midpost or low post and having defenders in front, behind, to the left and to the right of you. You can some but not everything. There is more fear about what is happening behind you - in your blind spots ... whereas from the dribble from 25 feet from the basket, you have no blind spots. You do see everything. You can map the floor easier. Where are the defenders, where are my teammates, what are the opportunities.

I have had this feeling for awhile but I think this is what is happening in today's NBA and why we should have more confidence in our young wings developing their passing in today's NBA than in previous decades.

This is true. Kawhi Leonard made the leap to a lead creator at the ripe old age of 28 while LeBron slowly developed into a world class playmaker and passer as he aged throughout the 2010s. Obviously we shouldn't expect Tatum and Brown to develop like this (Kawhi and LeBron have some of the greatest peaks in NBA history, especially the latter), but we can expect them to continue refining this aspect of their game as they age and mature.

It's kinda the ol' Jordan story all over again. Learning to trust and use your teammates.

You know. When Jordan went "you know I don't feel real comfortable in these situations, maybe we should go into another direction, maybe we gotta go to Steve."

Offline MaxAMillion

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The Nets take turns and they are fine. I don’t understand why people ignore the two biggest problems this year (besides health). One was bad defense and the second was a bad bench. You don’t fix either by trading your second young star player.

Online obnoxiousmime

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Tatum and Brown are definitely redundant skill-wise. It doesn't mean you can't win with them, but they need to be surrounded by very complementary players. Some stars are more versatile in adapting to what's around them. I think the two Js will continue to improve their vision with more experience and trust in better teammates, but I don't think they will ever have the Doncic or LeBron gene where they're essentially point forwards. It's not a problem now, but maybe one going forward if it's just too difficult to fit all the perfect pieces around them.

The other thing is personality. It's not just maturity, because some guys come in the league and instantly are leaders and dominant personalities. Tatum isn't that guy. He's more like Kawhi in that respect, a great player that isn't very vocal and doesn't necessarily facilitate for others much on offense. On the Spurs and Raptors he didn't need to do anything else because they were already established in the leadership department. Our team doesn't have that because we didn't keep any of our star veterans, for various reasons.

I think Brown definitely has leadership potential, but he seems uncertain and insecure sometimes. He's also soft spoken and kind of introspective, which is fine but again, not really helping fill what they appear to be lacking right now.

So, what do they really need? Well, let's see. They need a PG to help run the offense whose game is more about facilitation than on-ball scoring. He has to be a good outside shooter on the catch and, if we're trying to be a contender, is at least solid defensively with OK size. They need a PF that can switch on D and guard most positions effectively, including the 5 sometimes when they go small. He also needs to at least be OK at 3 to keep D's honest. Preferably, he also is a solid passer though if they keep Rob Williams then that's less of a requirement. Preferably, both guys are providing leadership and toughness and aren't liabilities in the size department.

I know what you're saying, how are they going to get these seemingly perfect guys? Well, the first thing is they need to actually be committed to paying the tax. The second thing is, it would really help if they actually knocked one of their late picks out of the park (think Draymond, Jokic, J. Butler, Tony Parker, even Giannis) instead of just getting an OK but low-ceiling player with critical flaws. This means they need to stop taking guys that are way too short/small to be anything more than bench filler unless there truly isn't anything better available. In a similar vein, they need to find some gem or "second draft" guy in free agency domestic and/or Europe that turns out to be better than your average signing. Even if they can't afford to keep everyone long term, that's often the only way you can sneak excess talent onto your team when hard-capped. The third thing is they obviously need to eventually turn Kemba's cap space into one great player, or 2 maybe even 3 productive vets.

It would be a lot easier if there actually were stars available that fit better with the Js, but it doesn't appear to be any really obvious targets right now. Beal is just another scorer who is undersized but not really a PG. If Portland (Boston West) blows it up, their stars are also similarly on the ball scorers. Chris Paul would have been great 1-2 years ago instead of Kemba, but he's older now and the C's don't have the means to sign him currently anyway. Lowry is the same thing, too old and hard to fit financially. Jrue Holiday was a fit even if he's not really a leader, but obviously Kemba's bad contract made that an impossible pursuit and he's no longer available anyway. I'd really like them to kick the tires on Lonzo Ball but I'm not holding my breath because they don't have the assets/flexibility to go for him realistically. Mike Conley is a good target, but again do you have the maneuverability to get him?

As far as PF goes, Barnes is a nice fit, but I don't really think he's known for being tough or a leader, so you still need that from somewhere. It also would have been amazing if they had gotten Julius Randle a year or two ago but that ship has sailed, obviously. John Collins is talented, but even if we could acquire him it's hard to see a team of him and the two Js on three big money deals being enough to actually win a title. Myles Turner is still likely available but let's be honest, he's really more of a Rob replacement, not a PF.

The more you really look at it the more you understand why almost no commentator or writer has a very positive outlook on the team's near future. They need to develop what promising young guys they have to improve their team but also to increase their trade value. They need to wait until Kemba's deal is more tradable. And they need to keep Jaylen for now because he's still improving, on a cheap deal, and I don't see any other young star available that would be a considerably better basketball fit with Tatum right now. Also, unlike Tatum he actually has shown signs of being a leader which is more than I can say about some of these guys who put up numbers but are suspiciously always rumored to be available.

Finally, let's be totally realistic here. Let's say they strongly believe internally Brown and Tatum are probably a little bit redundant. We know they prefer to emulate the Spurs and Jazz with great passing, court vision, defense, consistency, and selflessness. Does that sound like Brown or Tatum? Not really! But it doesn't mean you just get rid of them even if you think they might have careers that are more similar to Carmelo or Iverson or Pierce? Meaning, they were scoring stars that needed to be the second best player on the team, not the best. Does it mean that maybe they are more like the franchises that only won one title as opposed to 3-4 (e.g. the Mavs with Nowitzki, the 08 Celtics, the Pistons)? Maybe, but if you don't actually have a realistic way of getting those super duper stars, just being competitive is still incredibly valuable. Maybe you win one title in a weird year. 29 teams don't win the title each year. Just winning one is incredibly difficult.



Offline Kernewek

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The more you really look at it the more you understand why almost no commentator or writer has a very positive outlook on the team's near future. They need to develop what promising young guys they have to improve their team but also to increase their trade value. They need to wait until Kemba's deal is more tradable. And they need to keep Jaylen for now because he's still improving, on a cheap deal, and I don't see any other young star available that would be a considerably better basketball fit with Tatum right now. Also, unlike Tatum he actually has shown signs of being a leader which is more than I can say about some of these guys who put up numbers but are suspiciously always rumored to be available.

I liked all of your post, but this is more or less on the money with how I'm feeling. I think we're in for a stop-gap year and some kind of shakeup, no matter what Wyc says about committing to Banner 18.
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Offline jc3celticsphan

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Jaylen is never going to be a number one guy, and clearly Tatum is poised to be the next Durant. Whenever these two play together, they just take turns and do not exactly jive like MJ/Pippen or LeBron/Wade. We gotta make a change. Really think we gotta move Brown for another young all-star on their second contract (KAT), or a prospective all-star still on their rookie contract (maybe a top two pick this year if a team is interested in taking Brown instead of drafting a top guy).

Thoughts on whether Jayson and Jaylen play together, whether we should move one of the two and, if so, who we should move them for.
  The problem with this is your giving in to the rest of the NBA. Jaylen Brown is worth more then KAT at this point and it really makes it a parallel move. I say we go all in on Wiseman he didn't look good playing for the Warriors and we could easily give up Kemba and Rob for a star Center and i say we listen to whatever the dubs throw at us we need to think about the future and that's extending Tatum as long as we can here. The warriors simply don't know how to use Wiseman he looked awful with golden state.

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Jaylen is our best trade-able asset and, combined with Smart’s contract, can possibly get us out of this “no light in sight” we feel. Someone who better complements Tatum, understands/accepts it is Tatum’s team, and another piece is all we need IF we hire a great coach.

I love the idea of moving Smart and picks for Wiseman. He’s possibly the most gettable young asset since he does not fit GSW and Smart is the perfect defensive complement to the Splash Brothers. I’d also like to see us move the young guys who are locker room trouble (Brad knows who they are even if we don’t).

Jaylen for KAT, Smart/picks for Wiseman, and young guys/picks/maybe TT for a pass-first, solid starting PG gets us back into contention, even with all that money going to Kemba to come off the bench. If OKC is willing to trade Horford for Kemba, I say pull the trigger.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 10:23:53 PM by GreenlyGreeny »

Offline LilRip

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The Nets take turns and they are fine. I don’t understand why people ignore the two biggest problems this year (besides health). One was bad defense and the second was a bad bench. You don’t fix either by trading your second young star player.

The Nets team is under coached but overly talented. Them taking turns is one of the biggest flaws of their team. The reason they win is because they have 2 former MVPs and a perennial allstar taking turns. Watching them in the first round, the Nets perform best when they aren’t taking turns but instead, have Harden initiating offense.

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Offline Muzzy66

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I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I also do kinda agree with Chuck and Shaq on this.

Could be proven wrong, but at this stage I have genuine concerns about whether Brown and Tatum can co-exist as stars on the same team.  I think they are too similar in terms of what they bring, with both being athletic wings who take lots of shots and who seemingly want to be "the guy".

In the past I felt it could work because Tatum seemed to be the volume shooter/scorer of the two, with Brown being more willing to settle into an off-ball role as a slasher and catch/shoot guy.  But this year Brown became much more of a volume shooter/scorer himself and I just don't feel the two compliment each other especially well anymore.

I'm sure it could be made to work with time and effort...but I wonder if the Celtics may become better (and do it faster) if they move Brown for a similarly impactful PG / big so that they have a more balanced overall attack. 

Offline Muzzy66

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Jaylen is our best trade-able asset and, combined with Smart’s contract, can possibly get us out of this “no light in sight” we feel. Someone who better complements Tatum, understands/accepts it is Tatum’s team, and another piece is all we need IF we hire a great coach.

I love the idea of moving Smart and picks for Wiseman. He’s possibly the most gettable young asset since he does not fit GSW and Smart is the perfect defensive complement to the Splash Brothers. I’d also like to see us move the young guys who are locker room trouble (Brad knows who they are even if we don’t).

Jaylen for KAT, Smart/picks for Wiseman, and young guys/picks/maybe TT for a pass-first, solid starting PG gets us back into contention, even with all that money going to Kemba to come off the bench. If OKC is willing to trade Horford for Kemba, I say pull the trigger.

I really don't want KAT here.

We're talking about moving the young guys who are locker room problems...then adding KAT, who's practically infamous for being soft, lazy and disinterested in winning.  Don't care how talented the guy is, I think guys like KAT are everything this team doesn't need after what we just saw this season.