C’s Off-Season FA Acquisitions

[Goldstar88]

I'm confused by what you mean. Of the players on the Nets roster they only drafted Claxton. The rest have been trades or free agents

I meant it will be hard to improve the team with the talent we have to offer.  People want Brown, Tatum, Timelord and perhaps Smart.   Other teams would not want the rest of our roster and it will be hard to make off season acquisitions given our cupboard is bare.

I think you'd be surprised. There were a few recent trades where guys of similar levels to our bench players were shipped for solid role players, e.g.

Hartenstein + two 2nd round picks for JaVale McGee.

2nd round pick for Terence Davis.

Cash for Torrey Craig.

Dennis Smith Jr. + 2nd round pick for Derrick Rose.

Three 2nd round picks for Alec Burks and Glenn Robinson III.

2nd round pick for James Ennis.

Etc etc.

Feel like there's potential to buy low on veteran players from rebuilding teams as we've seen in the past. Just need to be proactive

I think all of those guys would have been an upgrade over 3/4 of the C’s bench and all were had on the cheap. Really frustrating...

[PhoSita]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

[gouki88]

I'm confused by what you mean. Of the players on the Nets roster they only drafted Claxton. The rest have been trades or free agents

I meant it will be hard to improve the team with the talent we have to offer.  People want Brown, Tatum, Timelord and perhaps Smart.   Other teams would not want the rest of our roster and it will be hard to make off season acquisitions given our cupboard is bare.

I think you'd be surprised. There were a few recent trades where guys of similar levels to our bench players were shipped for solid role players, e.g.

Hartenstein + two 2nd round picks for JaVale McGee.

2nd round pick for Terence Davis.

Cash for Torrey Craig.

Dennis Smith Jr. + 2nd round pick for Derrick Rose.

Three 2nd round picks for Alec Burks and Glenn Robinson III.

2nd round pick for James Ennis.

Etc etc.

Feel like there's potential to buy low on veteran players from rebuilding teams as we've seen in the past. Just need to be proactive

My favorite idea right now is Tristan Thompson + [minor asset]* for Mason Plumlee

*could be a 2nd round pick, or a heavily protected 1st, or a young player not named Nesmith, Pritchard, or Robert Williams

That would be a great deal for us. Plumlee's defence and passing would be fantastic in our system, and he's a legit 7 footer. I definitely want to try and target veteran players on young rebuilding teams.

I think all of those guys would have been an upgrade over 3/4 of the C’s bench and all were had on the cheap. Really frustrating...

That was the sad point I was trying to illustrate. All of those guys would have fit on our bench, bothering.

[RJ87]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

Wendell also has one year left on his rookie deal - they were taken in the same draft class. And Wendell has also missed a ton of time due to injury, but he played a career high 54 regular season games this year compared to a career high of 52 games this year for Rob.

[PhoSita]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

Wendell also has one year left on his rookie deal - they were taken in the same draft class. And Wendell has also missed a ton of time due to injury, but he played a career high 54 regular season games this year compared to a career high of 52 games this year for Rob.

I think 1.5 seasons is different than just 1 season, even if maybe it shouldn't matter.

Career minutes played for Wendell Carter so far: ~3700

Career minutes played for Rob Williiams so far: ~1600

Also the draft pedigree matters for these things; Carter was a top 10 pick for a reason.

[RJ87]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

Wendell also has one year left on his rookie deal - they were taken in the same draft class. And Wendell has also missed a ton of time due to injury, but he played a career high 54 regular season games this year compared to a career high of 52 games this year for Rob.

I think 1.5 seasons is different than just 1 season, even if maybe it shouldn't matter.

Career minutes played for Wendell Carter so far: ~3700

Career minutes played for Rob Williiams so far: ~1600

Also the draft pedigree matters for these things; Carter was a top 10 pick for a reason.

I have to strongly disagree there. Michael Porter Jr. was taken at 14 in that draft but his value is as high as anyone from that class not named Luka or Trae. Go back a year, there's a ton have guys who have more value than Markelle Fultz at number one.

And the 1.5 seasons versus 1 is a matter of 22 games in this case. If a team likes a player, I don't games in a season that's already lost really is the tipping factor.

We can agree to disagree about the value of our assets - I absolutely get tempering your own expectations. We certainly don't have the assets we did just a few years ago, but there's still a hand or two to be played. I think Rob has trade value, as does Smart. We have all of our own picks. We still have $11.5m of TPE left. There only needs to be one GM in love with a guy like Nesmith.

[PhoSita]

I think Rob has trade value, but I think that value is limited by a few things

(1) He's never been able to stay healthy for a significant stretch.  He's dealt with nagging, off and on injuries of various kinds his whole career so far despite the fact that

(2) He's never played heavy minutes even when healthy.

Also

(3) Even at his best, Rob hasn't shown that he has shooting range or the ability to create his own shot.  He's an elite finisher, shot blocker, rim runner, etc.  This is relevant to his trade value because I think that's an archetype that teams value less than others in the modern NBA.  Especially when you consider that despite his shot blocking Rob has never really been a great defensive anchor; he's just shown potential to be a rim protector given his athleticism, length, and shot blocking.


Given all of the above, I think there are really big question marks about Rob.  Not just "can he be a star?" or "can he be a starting caliber center?"  They're more fundamental than that .... "Can he be a consistent part of a rotation?"  "Can he play significant minutes over the course of a full season?"  "Can he play most of a regular season and also be healthy for a deep playoff run?"  Related to that last one -- "Is he the kind of player who can stay on the floor in important minutes of close playoff games?"

There's a huge amount of variance in the kind of player Rob can become and what kind of value he can provide a team.

[RJ87]

I think Rob has trade value, but I think that value is limited by a few things

(1) He's never been able to stay healthy for a significant stretch.  He's dealt with nagging, off and on injuries of various kinds his whole career so far despite the fact that

(2) He's never played heavy minutes even when healthy.

Also

(3) Even at his best, Rob hasn't shown that he has shooting range or the ability to create his own shot.  He's an elite finisher, shot blocker, rim runner, etc.  This is relevant to his trade value because I think that's an archetype that teams value less than others in the modern NBA.  Especially when you consider that despite his shot blocking Rob has never really been a great defensive anchor; he's just shown potential to be a rim protector given his athleticism, length, and shot blocking.


Given all of the above, I think there are really big question marks about Rob.  Not just "can he be a star?" or "can he be a starting caliber center?"  They're more fundamental than that .... "Can he be a consistent part of a rotation?"  "Can he play significant minutes over the course of a full season?"  "Can he play most of a regular season and also be healthy for a deep playoff run?"  Related to that last one -- "Is he the kind of player who can stay on the floor in important minutes of close playoff games?"

There's a huge amount of variance in the kind of player Rob can become and what kind of value he can provide a team.

Buddy Hield was the centerpiece of a trade for Demarcus Cousins because a GM and owner believed he could be the next Steph Curry.

Again, I'm not sure what Rob's trade value ultimately is but he's got a ton of intrigue around him still. There's GM's more than willing to sell there fanbases on intrigue and hope to extend their own jobs.

[Moranis]

Nets gave up a lot more than draft picks for Harden....Allen and Levert both of whom would be great in green

An injury-prone inefficient scoring guard and an athletic rim-runner aren't A-grade or even B-grade prospects though

I think Allen is at least a B- prospect (way better prospect or value than Robert Williams as an example) and LeVert certainly has that talent, but man is he injury prone.  They also gave up Prince (C) and Kurucs (D) along with the 3 1st's and 3 swaps.

considering Timelord's break out this season, I can't see how Allen rates as a better prospect.  Timelord's got his health issues but in terms of impact on the game, TL has shown he can make a significant impact that dramatically improves how the team performs when he's on the court.  Allen has looked like a solid player but not with the same impact on the game.

Their advanced metrics are fairly close (Williams is a bit better), but Allen doesn't miss games and is actually younger.  Availability is often the best ability and in that it is no contest.  Allen stays healthy and can play a full game, Williams cannot.  I mean Allen played more minutes this season than Williams has played in his entire 3 year career by over 200 minutes.  I mean it is just staggering how unhealthy Williams has actually been.

I don't disagree that Williams has serious durability issues and Allen does not but that doesn't change the fact that TL has a much bigger impact on the floor when he's playing.  team's looking for an impact player will consider TL to be the better prospect to trade for

except Allen is going to sign a 100+ million contract and Williams won't come close to that.  which means Allen has more value to teams, which makes him a better prospect.

[gouki88]

Nets gave up a lot more than draft picks for Harden....Allen and Levert both of whom would be great in green

An injury-prone inefficient scoring guard and an athletic rim-runner aren't A-grade or even B-grade prospects though

I think Allen is at least a B- prospect (way better prospect or value than Robert Williams as an example) and LeVert certainly has that talent, but man is he injury prone.  They also gave up Prince (C) and Kurucs (D) along with the 3 1st's and 3 swaps.

considering Timelord's break out this season, I can't see how Allen rates as a better prospect.  Timelord's got his health issues but in terms of impact on the game, TL has shown he can make a significant impact that dramatically improves how the team performs when he's on the court.  Allen has looked like a solid player but not with the same impact on the game.

Their advanced metrics are fairly close (Williams is a bit better), but Allen doesn't miss games and is actually younger.  Availability is often the best ability and in that it is no contest.  Allen stays healthy and can play a full game, Williams cannot.  I mean Allen played more minutes this season than Williams has played in his entire 3 year career by over 200 minutes.  I mean it is just staggering how unhealthy Williams has actually been.

I don't disagree that Williams has serious durability issues and Allen does not but that doesn't change the fact that TL has a much bigger impact on the floor when he's playing.  team's looking for an impact player will consider TL to be the better prospect to trade for

except Allen is going to sign a 100+ million contract and Williams won't come close to that.  which means Allen has more value to teams, which makes him a better prospect.

Wait, what? Where have you heard Allen is looking at that kind of money??

[Moranis]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

Sabonis is also better and younger than Vucevic.  Sabonis just turned 25, has gotten better every year and is coming off a season in which he averaged 20.3 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 6.7 apg with a 60.1 TS%.  The man is a beast.  His value is a lot more than Vucevic given his age, his better efficiency, and his much better passing.

[Moranis]

Nets gave up a lot more than draft picks for Harden....Allen and Levert both of whom would be great in green

An injury-prone inefficient scoring guard and an athletic rim-runner aren't A-grade or even B-grade prospects though

I think Allen is at least a B- prospect (way better prospect or value than Robert Williams as an example) and LeVert certainly has that talent, but man is he injury prone.  They also gave up Prince (C) and Kurucs (D) along with the 3 1st's and 3 swaps.

considering Timelord's break out this season, I can't see how Allen rates as a better prospect.  Timelord's got his health issues but in terms of impact on the game, TL has shown he can make a significant impact that dramatically improves how the team performs when he's on the court.  Allen has looked like a solid player but not with the same impact on the game.

Their advanced metrics are fairly close (Williams is a bit better), but Allen doesn't miss games and is actually younger.  Availability is often the best ability and in that it is no contest.  Allen stays healthy and can play a full game, Williams cannot.  I mean Allen played more minutes this season than Williams has played in his entire 3 year career by over 200 minutes.  I mean it is just staggering how unhealthy Williams has actually been.

I don't disagree that Williams has serious durability issues and Allen does not but that doesn't change the fact that TL has a much bigger impact on the floor when he's playing.  team's looking for an impact player will consider TL to be the better prospect to trade for

except Allen is going to sign a 100+ million contract and Williams won't come close to that.  which means Allen has more value to teams, which makes him a better prospect.

Wait, what? Where have you heard Allen is looking at that kind of money??

That is what the Cleveland writers expect, especially Terry Pluto who is perhaps the most connected of them.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2021/05/whats-next-for-cavaliers-koby-altman-collin-sexton-dan-gilbert-hey-terry.html

They are going to give Allen $100 million or more in a contract extension.

Hey, Terry: The Cavs need to trade Collin Sexton and build around Isaac Okoro and Darius Garland. Do you think the front office thinks that way? – Scott Iantosca

Hey, Scott: An NBA executive suggested the Cavs could consider that because it’s a salary cap crusher to pay Allen and Sexton both long-term contracts over $100 million. This guy likes Sexton as a player, but not on a maximum contract.

Pluto also said this in a different article. 

“I talked to an agent who could picture Allen’s talks starting at $100 million for five years and going up — perhaps to $125 million, $25 million a year,” Pluto wrote. “It’s not a maximum deal, but it’s close.”

[gouki88]

Nets gave up a lot more than draft picks for Harden....Allen and Levert both of whom would be great in green

An injury-prone inefficient scoring guard and an athletic rim-runner aren't A-grade or even B-grade prospects though

I think Allen is at least a B- prospect (way better prospect or value than Robert Williams as an example) and LeVert certainly has that talent, but man is he injury prone.  They also gave up Prince (C) and Kurucs (D) along with the 3 1st's and 3 swaps.

considering Timelord's break out this season, I can't see how Allen rates as a better prospect.  Timelord's got his health issues but in terms of impact on the game, TL has shown he can make a significant impact that dramatically improves how the team performs when he's on the court.  Allen has looked like a solid player but not with the same impact on the game.

Their advanced metrics are fairly close (Williams is a bit better), but Allen doesn't miss games and is actually younger.  Availability is often the best ability and in that it is no contest.  Allen stays healthy and can play a full game, Williams cannot.  I mean Allen played more minutes this season than Williams has played in his entire 3 year career by over 200 minutes.  I mean it is just staggering how unhealthy Williams has actually been.

I don't disagree that Williams has serious durability issues and Allen does not but that doesn't change the fact that TL has a much bigger impact on the floor when he's playing.  team's looking for an impact player will consider TL to be the better prospect to trade for

except Allen is going to sign a 100+ million contract and Williams won't come close to that.  which means Allen has more value to teams, which makes him a better prospect.

Wait, what? Where have you heard Allen is looking at that kind of money??

That is what the Cleveland writers expect, especially Terry Pluto who is perhaps the most connected of them.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2021/05/whats-next-for-cavaliers-koby-altman-collin-sexton-dan-gilbert-hey-terry.html

They are going to give Allen $100 million or more in a contract extension.

Hey, Terry: The Cavs need to trade Collin Sexton and build around Isaac Okoro and Darius Garland. Do you think the front office thinks that way? – Scott Iantosca

Hey, Scott: An NBA executive suggested the Cavs could consider that because it’s a salary cap crusher to pay Allen and Sexton both long-term contracts over $100 million. This guy likes Sexton as a player, but not on a maximum contract.

Pluto also said this in a different article. 

“I talked to an agent who could picture Allen’s talks starting at $100 million for five years and going up — perhaps to $125 million, $25 million a year,” Pluto wrote. “It’s not a maximum deal, but it’s close.”

My lord! That's insane. I like Allen but he's essentially made no improvement for much of his career and averages 11/10 with rim protection and no passing. That's a crazy overpay

[C3LTSF4N]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

Sabonis is also better and younger than Vucevic.  Sabonis just turned 25, has gotten better every year and is coming off a season in which he averaged 20.3 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 6.7 apg with a 60.1 TS%.  The man is a beast.  His value is a lot more than Vucevic given his age, his better efficiency, and his much better passing.

Sabonis is not better than Vuc

[PAOBoston]

Sabonis is a borderline All-Star; a guy who is not good enough to be the clear cut best player on a good team, but nonetheless a very valuable player.  I think he's similar to Vucevic in what he should fetch in a trade.

I don't the Celtics realistically have the assets to get him.

Vucevic went for 2 1sts, Wendell Carter, and Otto Porter's expiring.

We have all of our own 1sts for a deal and an athletic but injury prone young big as the basis. Add in Tristan's expiring and another of the rookie deals and you have the salary.

I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's not far fetched.

What piece do the Celts have in line with Wendell Carter?  He was a top 10 pick just a couple years ago and was seen as still having potential.  Rob Williams?  I think considering Rob's health concerns and only 1 year left on his rookie deal, his trade value is not nearly as high as Carter's was.

Sabonis is also better and younger than Vucevic.  Sabonis just turned 25, has gotten better every year and is coming off a season in which he averaged 20.3 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 6.7 apg with a 60.1 TS%.  The man is a beast.  His value is a lot more than Vucevic given his age, his better efficiency, and his much better passing.

Sabonis is not better than Vuc

Considering the age difference, yes he is.