Who's in, who's out ?

[tazzmaniac]

My take is quite in line with Triboy.

I think one of Brown and Tatum should be traded.  I would trade Tatum as he'll bring a higher return and, I think for maximizing Brad Steven's strengths as a coach Brown is a better fit than Tatum.

Stevens needs a deep team that can defend.  Trading Tatum can deliver that while also remaining extremely talented.


Main Players:

Out:  Tatum, Walker, maybe Smart maybe not.

In:  Brown, Fournier, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard, Robert Williams


Brown was great this year but picked up one of Tatum's bad habits of going one on one
and turning the ball over at ill advised moments.  If both Brown and Tatum are going iso it becomes impossible for Steven's to implement what he's trying to do in terms of cohesion.
One option is to be patient with both, keeping both.  Another is to give Stevens a Stevens-type team right now.

If the choice if between Tatum or Brown or Stevens, then Stevens need to be shown the door.  Only reason to move Tatum or Brown is if they were incompatible or if they could be moved for a better star.  I don't see anything to suggest Tatum and Brown aren't compatible not have I seen a better star available yet.  Even if we did trade for a better star, there's a good chance Stevens needs to be shown the door. 

Teams don't win NBA championships because they are deep.  You need a couple top stars and 5 or 6 productive playoff ready role players.  Championships are won by building around the stars on the team not by building a team around the coach.   If Stevens, can't make a championship contender around Tatum and Brown, Stevens needs to go. 

[td450]

If Tatum or Brown are going out in a trade, one of the following most definitely needs to be coming back:

Steph
Doncic
Giannis
Davis
Embiid
Jokic
Durant
Kawhi
Zion

Or possibly coming back:

Mitchell
Beal
LaVine
Fox
George
Simmons
Butler
Ingram
Sabonis
And maybe one or three others

Or

Patrick Williams, Coby White, Thad Young and 2021 1st imo

I rather take this package than some the guys you listed under 'possibly' coming back.

Lateral type trades (1:1 big names) almost never happen.

Which is why you don't trade Tatum.   


We have seen Tatum and Brown work together long enough to know it works.   It is about putting the right team around them.

I do agree, but it does require that the team realizes what Tatum isn't going to be and makes adjustments for it. I think ultimately that the team needs to be led and driven by someone else. I would try out Brown in that role and see how it goes. I don't know if he can pull it off, but he's here already and he has most of the character and ability for what it takes.

It always stuck with me in 2008 that neither Garnett or Pierce alone really had what it took to be championship level dominant, but they were so complimentary in their skills and demeanor that it was like having that level guy on the roster. That's the best chance we have at the moment.

The team won't work if it takes on Tatum's demeanor, and it won't work with him determining offensive tempo. He can be a 28/10/6 guy, but he isn't going to emotionally lead a team to a title.

[Tr1boy]

My take is quite in line with Triboy.

I think one of Brown and Tatum should be traded.  I would trade Tatum as he'll bring a higher return and, I think for maximizing Brad Steven's strengths as a coach Brown is a better fit than Tatum.

Stevens needs a deep team that can defend.  Trading Tatum can deliver that while also remaining extremely talented.


Main Players:

Out:  Tatum, Walker, maybe Smart maybe not.

In:  Brown, Fournier, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard, Robert Williams


Brown was great this year but picked up one of Tatum's bad habits of going one on one
and turning the ball over at ill advised moments.  If both Brown and Tatum are going iso it becomes impossible for Steven's to implement what he's trying to do in terms of cohesion.
One option is to be patient with both, keeping both.  Another is to give Stevens a Stevens-type team right now.

If the choice if between Tatum or Brown or Stevens, then Stevens need to be shown the door.  Only reason to move Tatum or Brown is if they were incompatible or if they could be moved for a better star.  I don't see anything to suggest Tatum and Brown aren't compatible not have I seen a better star available yet.  Even if we did trade for a better star, there's a good chance Stevens needs to be shown the door. 

Teams don't win NBA championships because they are deep.  You need a couple top stars and 5 or 6 productive playoff ready role players.  Championships are won by building around the stars on the team not by building a team around the coach.   If Stevens, can't make a championship contender around Tatum and Brown, Stevens needs to go.

I agree with this point... too bad Danny and Wyc put Brad at the top of their list

Brad has preached ball movement and force on defense.  Two things that are not Tatum strongsuit

Brad wont ever come out and talk down about Kemba, Smart, Tatum etc. But you have to wonder what is really going on in his head

The poor 1st quarter starts has been the theme this season... its not like Edwards and Tacko were out there

If Danny didnt think Brad as his son, I would say he would be next in line to go.... but only after Ainge tries to "fix" the roster

If the same "main" issues still exist.  Then something has to give...

[Celtics4ever]

If both Brown and Tatum are going iso it becomes impossible for Steven's to implement what he's trying to do in terms of cohesion.

Good players have always taken over games, if Stevens can't adjust to that then it is him who needs to go.   I for one, love CBS as a person, I think he is a great coach and has had our teams overachieve year after year.    But if he can't make this kind of adjustment to star players from his underdog system that we've ran then he is part of the problem.   Talent wins in basketball and I much rather have the Jay's shoot one on one than some of our bench duds.

Ainge must have missed the surround your stars with  shooters memo.   

Grant has to go, Kornet should go -total Sieves on defense
Edwards, Tacko and Water should go, Semi  can go
Thompson has not impressed me every game, so he can go.   Kemba can be great but the no back backs is a stickler for me.  Smart is a cap casualty I suspect as well.

I think we should build around Tatum and Brown, and Fournier.   Pritch and Nesmith too.   I love Rob but his health is so dicey.

I pretty think PhoSita nailed it TP

[td450]

My take is quite in line with Triboy.

I think one of Brown and Tatum should be traded.  I would trade Tatum as he'll bring a higher return and, I think for maximizing Brad Steven's strengths as a coach Brown is a better fit than Tatum.

Stevens needs a deep team that can defend.  Trading Tatum can deliver that while also remaining extremely talented.


Main Players:

Out:  Tatum, Walker, maybe Smart maybe not.

In:  Brown, Fournier, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard, Robert Williams


Brown was great this year but picked up one of Tatum's bad habits of going one on one
and turning the ball over at ill advised moments.  If both Brown and Tatum are going iso it becomes impossible for Steven's to implement what he's trying to do in terms of cohesion.
One option is to be patient with both, keeping both.  Another is to give Stevens a Stevens-type team right now.

If the choice if between Tatum or Brown or Stevens, then Stevens need to be shown the door.  Only reason to move Tatum or Brown is if they were incompatible or if they could be moved for a better star.  I don't see anything to suggest Tatum and Brown aren't compatible not have I seen a better star available yet.  Even if we did trade for a better star, there's a good chance Stevens needs to be shown the door. 

Teams don't win NBA championships because they are deep.  You need a couple top stars and 5 or 6 productive playoff ready role players.  Championships are won by building around the stars on the team not by building a team around the coach.   If Stevens, can't make a championship contender around Tatum and Brown, Stevens needs to go.

I agree with this point... too bad Danny and Wyc put Brad at the top of their list

Brad has preached ball movement and force on defense.  Two things that are not Tatum strongsuit

Brad wont ever come out and talk down about Kemba, Smart, Tatum etc. But you have to wonder what is really going on in his head

The poor 1st quarter starts has been the theme this season... its not like Edwards and Tacko were out there

If Danny didnt think Brad as his son, I would say he would be next in line to go.... but only after Ainge tries to "fix" the roster

If the same "main" issues still exist.  Then something has to give...

The problem is that ball movement and force on defense works. Stevens is right. When you don't have pace and ball movement, you have to be physical and willfull at getting really good shots under pressure. It isn't a coincidence that most of the guys who get it done are physically overpowering.

Tatum isn't afraid of taking big shots, but he is prone to settling, and he isn't overpowering. Ultimately, you can't just give in and fully commit to Tatum's style if you want to win championships. He's really good, but not that good.

Tatum can still be all-nba with pace and movement. We just need a different backcourt to do it, and we need one more physical player.

Even with younger, lesser versions of Tatum and Brown, we saw a version of this with Rozier and Marcus Morris. Both of those two were just decent starters at the time, but they gave us the things that complimented Tatum and Brown perfectly. Rozier and Morris brought pace and movement and some toughness and competence at the point and power forward. We don't need stars but we do need to inject those traits into the team. That style worked. We played above our talent level.

[Rikibellevie]

If both Brown and Tatum are going iso it becomes impossible for Steven's to implement what he's trying to do in terms of cohesion.

Good players have always taken over games, if Stevens can't adjust to that then it is him who needs to go.   I for one, love CBS as a person, I think he is a great coach and has had our teams overachieve year after year.    But if he can't make this kind of adjustment to star players from his underdog system that we've ran then he is part of the problem.   Talent wins in basketball and I much rather have the Jay's shoot one on one than some of our bench duds.

Ainge must have missed the surround your stars with  shooters memo.   

Grant has to go, Kornet should go -total Sieves on defense
Edwards, Tacko and Water should go, Semi  can go
Thompson has not impressed me every game, so he can go.   Kemba can be great but the no back backs is a stickler for me.  Smart is a cap casualty I suspect as well.

I think we should build around Tatum and Brown, and Fournier.   Pritch and Nesmith too.   I love Rob but his health is so dicey.

I pretty think PhoSita nailed it TP

I kind of agree on almost everything you and Phosita post about that. But not on 3 points you mention :

_ I think cap problems about Smart are just about projection after next year. His value is down, so his expectations about his contract should be down also. For the same kind of contract than his last, he wouldn't be at all a bad invest. Noone before this year said his contract was bad. On a team which works, in big molents he can be a game changer .... If a team give a good return why not, but as it is unprobable, I prefer to use this bad year to show fidelity to him and ask for a price.
_ ... and this may not be the case for Fournier. Good contract year (and the kind of player to have an overachieved contract year),older, not surely and PO guy.
_ GWill is bad this year and has big limitations. But he has a low contract for 2 more years and is OK for a 3rd core option for this price. He may still have potential for a bench player on a team twith better team chemistry, as a not talented but good IQ and shooter small big and smart person who can give a good mind to the group. Who knows ?

[SHAQATTACK]

I've seen enough of Grant Williams to last a lifetime.

Lol....but Brad has special luv for the misfit kids  Semi and Grant are two of his favs 

I would not count on them being moved for that alone .

[Tr1boy]

My take is quite in line with Triboy.

I think one of Brown and Tatum should be traded.  I would trade Tatum as he'll bring a higher return and, I think for maximizing Brad Steven's strengths as a coach Brown is a better fit than Tatum.

Stevens needs a deep team that can defend.  Trading Tatum can deliver that while also remaining extremely talented.


Main Players:

Out:  Tatum, Walker, maybe Smart maybe not.

In:  Brown, Fournier, Nesmith, Langford, Pritchard, Robert Williams


Brown was great this year but picked up one of Tatum's bad habits of going one on one
and turning the ball over at ill advised moments.  If both Brown and Tatum are going iso it becomes impossible for Steven's to implement what he's trying to do in terms of cohesion.
One option is to be patient with both, keeping both.  Another is to give Stevens a Stevens-type team right now.

If the choice if between Tatum or Brown or Stevens, then Stevens need to be shown the door.  Only reason to move Tatum or Brown is if they were incompatible or if they could be moved for a better star.  I don't see anything to suggest Tatum and Brown aren't compatible not have I seen a better star available yet.  Even if we did trade for a better star, there's a good chance Stevens needs to be shown the door. 

Teams don't win NBA championships because they are deep.  You need a couple top stars and 5 or 6 productive playoff ready role players.  Championships are won by building around the stars on the team not by building a team around the coach.   If Stevens, can't make a championship contender around Tatum and Brown, Stevens needs to go.

I agree with this point... too bad Danny and Wyc put Brad at the top of their list

Brad has preached ball movement and force on defense.  Two things that are not Tatum strongsuit

Brad wont ever come out and talk down about Kemba, Smart, Tatum etc. But you have to wonder what is really going on in his head

The poor 1st quarter starts has been the theme this season... its not like Edwards and Tacko were out there

If Danny didnt think Brad as his son, I would say he would be next in line to go.... but only after Ainge tries to "fix" the roster

If the same "main" issues still exist.  Then something has to give...

The problem is that ball movement and force on defense works. Stevens is right. When you don't have pace and ball movement, you have to be physical and willfull at getting really good shots under pressure. It isn't a coincidence that most of the guys who get it done are physically overpowering.

Tatum isn't afraid of taking big shots, but he is prone to settling, and he isn't overpowering. Ultimately, you can't just give in and fully commit to Tatum's style if you want to win championships. He's really good, but not that good.

Tatum can still be all-nba with pace and movement. We just need a different backcourt to do it, and we need one more physical player.

Even with younger, lesser versions of Tatum and Brown, we saw a version of this with Rozier and Marcus Morris. Both of those two were just decent starters at the time, but they gave us the things that complimented Tatum and Brown perfectly. Rozier and Morris brought pace and movement and some toughness and competence at the point and power forward. We don't need stars but we do need to inject those traits into the team. That style worked. We played above our talent level.

This is a good write up

And I do agree that the team needs more Rozier and Morris types.

Thompson hasnt lived up to ....

[PhoSita]

Kornet should go -total Sieves on defense

I've actually been pretty impressed by Kornet defensively.  He's got some significant limitations but he contests really well at the rim and gets a fair number of blocks.  I think the stats also suggest that his teams have tended to defend better with him on the floor over the course of his career.

That said, he's a 3rd stringer at best. Not a player you want as a regular in your rotation.  You want him coming in to play 10-15 minutes a night when your starter or backup center are hurt / resting.  But if the price is right (minimum or close to it), I think there are much worse ways to use a roster spot (e.g. Carsen Edwards).

[PhoSita]

I think one of Brown and Tatum should be traded.  I would trade Tatum as he'll bring a higher return and, I think for maximizing Brad Steven's strengths as a coach Brown is a better fit than Tatum.

What sort of player are you expecting to be available that is worth trading Tatum?

Let's remember Tatum's attributes / accomplishments

- prototypical size for scoring wing / forward

- proven 25+ ppg scorer

- from his rookie season onward has shown he can score at a high level even throughout long playoff series

- still only 23

- gets hot for stretches, showing an ability to put up 30-40+ points on a night to night basis for weeks or more at a time (this is how underdog teams make deep playoff runs)



It's very very hard to find guys who can be your lead scorer in a playoff series against a quality defensive opponent.

Tatum has flaws.  He doesn't get to the line nearly enough.  He's very inconsistent in how often he attacks the paint.  He has a tendency to default to side step threes and fadeaways when the going gets tough.  If your team is following his personality, your team might be a bit too laid back and relaxed even when the moment calls for passionate intensity / desperation. 

Even so, what Tatum provides is incredibly difficult to replace.

[colincb]

Stay (6)
Tatum and Brown - locks
Walker - depressed market value
Timelord, Pritchard, and Nesmith - rookie contracts and look promising.

Stay if the price is right and tax not a constraint (2)
Fournier and Fall (as 15th player)

Out (3)
Ojeleye and Waters - contracts are up.
Edwards - can be cut and spread cheaply.

Likely stay until cut next year because we can't trade them and won't stretch them (2)
Romeo and GWill

Maybes (4)
Smart - A decision is required one way or the other because he's an expiring next season, and he's the best trade chip we have other than the Js.
TT's - Not good enough against the best centers. He and Smart could net you Horford.
Parker - Not guaranteed and knees are shot.
Kornet - Contract is up and maybe something better catches DA's eye for a 3rd string center.

[nickagneta]

If Tatum or Brown are going out in a trade, one of the following most definitely needs to be coming back:

Steph
Doncic
Giannis
Davis
Embiid
Jokic
Durant
Kawhi
Zion

Or possibly coming back:

Mitchell
Beal
LaVine
Fox
George
Simmons
Butler
Ingram
Sabonis
And maybe one or three others

Or

Patrick Williams, Coby White, Thad Young and 2021 1st imo

I rather take this package than some the guys you listed under 'possibly' coming back.

Lateral type trades (1:1 big names) almost never happen.

What an awful return for a talent of the caliber of Tatum. A lateral move by trading a top 15 or so player in the game who is just 23 is infinitely more palatable than a massive step back trade, hoping beyond hope you win the lottery to nab a player who in 3-4 years could possibly, maybe, might be as good as Tatum right now.

Your trade is a STEP BACK trade and not even a good one. It transforms the team into a perennial high lottery to low seeded playoff team for years.

Yes, they are a low seeded playoff team this year but there are extenuating circumstances why. A return to normalcy and health alone may very well show this team is closer to the top of the conference and not in the middle, which your trade would put us for a long time.

You don't build a team by trading top 15-25 type players that are All-Stars and All-NBA players before they are 25. You build around them.

[colincb]

Bulls don't have a 2021 1st rounder for a Tatum trade.

[Birdman]

No way I would do that Bulls trade

[tstorey_97]

I think we're stuck with the majority of the bunch. Not happy about it either.

Maybe this summer a small move, but next year's trade deadline? Many decisions will need to be made.

2021/2022 deadline:

Smart's last year....$14.3M (re sign or trade or both)
Kemba's second to last year...$36M (salary dump)
Thompson's last year...$9.7M (re sign or trade)
Robert last year ...$3.6M (re sign or trade)

Semi is done this season at $1.7M (where else do you get Semi for $1.7M?)

Rest of the guys are on other rookie deals.

Be aware that Ainge has a plan that might be 2022/23 and 2023/24 he goes all in for title with J's and heads to luxury tax land etc.

Before then? We're moving the deck chairs around and waiting to see who breaks loose from other teams.