How will the Celtics improve this off-season?

[Vermont Green]

The short answer is that it won't be easy.  I like Fournier and I think they will make a run to sign him.  If they do that, along with the bump that Tatum gets, were going to be in the tax no matter what.  So to me, the tax is a given, not really a question.  Say we are able to sign Fournier, then we have pretty decent team, better than the team that made it to the final 4 last season.

The problem that remains is the lack of a scoring big.  I think there is a ceiling we will hit without improving that aspect.  Unfortunately, there are relatively few options to address that issue.  We will still have some TPE left but not enough to get a really top big.  There might be some sign and trade options for Collins, Markkanen, and maybe a couple of others but all kind of long shots.  This is the case even if we are able to clear Kemba's salary cap and don't sign Fournier.  We still just can't sign someone.

As others have said, we likely look a lot like we look now.  Brown and Tatum should improve.  Fournier will be integrated.  Players like Langford and Nesmith a little better to help the bench so there will be improvement.

The final option is to try to trade real value for a big, say Smart or Brown.  The idea is to create a more balanced roster and end up with a better team, even though you are giving up value.  I don't see this happening.

Small thing VG, the Celtics won't be doing anything that hardcaps the team in the foreseeable future. Signing and trading players is one of those things that hardcaps a team.

OK, to be clear, this would apply if we sign and trade Fournier for example, right?  But if we for example were to trade Kemba for Collins in a sign and trade deal where ATL is the one doing the signing, are we still hard capped?  I think the latter example is more likely (albeit still not real likely) where we trade to get someone like Collins or Markkanen rather then we sign Fournier and trade him away (which I hope doesn't happen anyway).

[footey]

Biggest need:

Vet point guard who can run the offense.  And call Tatum and Brown on their crap when they over dribble, turn the ball over, and stagnate the offense and kill the ball movement.

A guy like Chris Paul would have been perfect for our team. Obviously he won't be available. 

Until we have strong veteran leadership who is going to make sure we play the right way, I see little hope of improvement. 

Would love to hear any suggestions on names. 

[nickagneta]

The short answer is that it won't be easy.  I like Fournier and I think they will make a run to sign him.  If they do that, along with the bump that Tatum gets, were going to be in the tax no matter what.  So to me, the tax is a given, not really a question.  Say we are able to sign Fournier, then we have pretty decent team, better than the team that made it to the final 4 last season.

The problem that remains is the lack of a scoring big.  I think there is a ceiling we will hit without improving that aspect.  Unfortunately, there are relatively few options to address that issue.  We will still have some TPE left but not enough to get a really top big.  There might be some sign and trade options for Collins, Markkanen, and maybe a couple of others but all kind of long shots.  This is the case even if we are able to clear Kemba's salary cap and don't sign Fournier.  We still just can't sign someone.

As others have said, we likely look a lot like we look now.  Brown and Tatum should improve.  Fournier will be integrated.  Players like Langford and Nesmith a little better to help the bench so there will be improvement.

The final option is to try to trade real value for a big, say Smart or Brown.  The idea is to create a more balanced roster and end up with a better team, even though you are giving up value.  I don't see this happening.

Small thing VG, the Celtics won't be doing anything that hardcaps the team in the foreseeable future. Signing and trading players is one of those things that hardcaps a team.

OK, to be clear, this would apply if we sign and trade Fournier for example, right?  But if we for example were to trade Kemba for Collins in a sign and trade deal where ATL is the one doing the signing, are we still hard capped?  I think the latter example is more likely (albeit still not real likely) where we trade to get someone like Collins or Markkanen rather then we sign Fournier and trade him away (which I hope doesn't happen anyway).

The Celtics would be allowed to sign Fournier and then trade him to another team. This does not hardcap the C's. But they can not have another team sign their player(like Collins) and then trade him to the Celtics. That move hardcaps the team.

In general, sign & trade a player out, no hardcap. Sign & trade a player in, hardcap.

[keevsnick]

Ya its somewhat tuff. I see alot of people here just kind of assuming that Fournier will be back, but thats hard financially. Right now there are 11 guys under contract for next year. If Tatum misses all-NBA the c's will be just about 4 million under the tax for those 11 guys, meaning just using thier draft pick and signing some minimum guys would put you into the tax. So if Fournier returns for like 15 million a year, which may be optimistic, the team will be 20+ million into the tax.

I find it somewhat hard to believe they will go that deep. They literally have never gone more than 15 million in. I think it's possible if fournier returns theres a cost cutting move like Smart, Kemba leaving. Thompson could be a dump candidate, but with Theis gone and Timelord an injury risk that's a tough guy to move unless you are replacing him with another similar salary guy.

But financial stuff aside what could they do? Larry Nance Jr into the remainder of our TPE makes a lot of sense. Nance for our 1st + GWill makes some sense. We'll have the taxpayer MLE but that's only 5 million a year, still you can maybe get a vet. You could go star chasing by combining Smart+Thompson and picks/young guys. But all these options are tough financially because they add salary to our high tax bill.

Of course a Kemba trade opens up a lot of flexibility, I'm sure they will explore that.

 

[Moranis]

Ya its somewhat tuff. I see alot of people here just kind of assuming that Fournier will be back, but thats hard financially. Right now there are 11 guys under contract for next year. If Tatum misses all-NBA the c's will be just about 4 million under the tax for those 11 guys, meaning just using thier draft pick and signing some minimum guys would put you into the tax. So if Fournier returns for like 15 million a year, which may be optimistic, the team will be 20+ million into the tax.

I find it somewhat hard to believe they will go that deep. They literally have never gone more than 15 million in. I think it's possible if fournier returns theres a cost cutting move like Smart, Kemba leaving. Thompson could be a dump candidate, but with Theis gone and Timelord an injury risk that's a tough guy to move unless you are replacing him with another similar salary guy.

But financial stuff aside what could they do? Larry Nance Jr into the remainder of our TPE makes a lot of sense. Nance for our 1st + GWill makes some sense. We'll have the taxpayer MLE but that's only 5 million a year, still you can maybe get a vet. You could go star chasing by combining Smart+Thompson and picks/young guys. But all these options are tough financially because they add salary to our high tax bill.

Of course a Kemba trade opens up a lot of flexibility, I'm sure they will explore that.

The Cavs would never do that move.  They love Nance.  They may trade him, but they would need to blown away and a mid to late 1st and Grant Williams is not that sort of trade.

[PhoSita]

The Celtics need to be looking for the next Harden, ie the next max-level player whose value is way above his contract. All of the other details are inadequate in terms of vaulting them into contention. They’re just not close as currently constituted. Players like Siakem or Valanciunas don’t move the needle, at least not enough to make this team a contender.

Issue is that the next two names that seem likely to fall into that category are Beal and Towns. 

Neither of those guys is helping you win games on defense. If you could get either one without giving up Jaylen, you could have a very dangerous offensive team.  But is that feasible? The Celts don't really have any blue chip assets anymore other than their main two guys.  So the only way I see the Celts being able to trade for a big name is if the big name guy specifically wants to go to the Celtics. 

Maybe that's possible with Beal, but it seems a stretch to me that any All-Star looking for a better situation is going to put Boston at the top of his list.

[PhoSita]

Biggest need:

Vet point guard who can run the offense.  And call Tatum and Brown on their crap when they over dribble, turn the ball over, and stagnate the offense and kill the ball movement.

A guy like Chris Paul would have been perfect for our team. Obviously he won't be available. 

Until we have strong veteran leadership who is going to make sure we play the right way, I see little hope of improvement. 

Would love to hear any suggestions on names.

George Hill would be a nice backup to have. 

Patty Mills is less of a ball handler but he has lots of playoff / championship experience.


I think Jeff Teague was supposed to fill the role you're describing but he didn't have much left in the tank.

[Moranis]

The Celtics need to be looking for the next Harden, ie the next max-level player whose value is way above his contract. All of the other details are inadequate in terms of vaulting them into contention. They’re just not close as currently constituted. Players like Siakem or Valanciunas don’t move the needle, at least not enough to make this team a contender.

Issue is that the next two names that seem likely to fall into that category are Beal and Towns. 

Neither of those guys is helping you win games on defense. If you could get either one without giving up Jaylen, you could have a very dangerous offensive team.  But is that feasible? The Celts don't really have any blue chip assets anymore other than their main two guys.  So the only way I see the Celts being able to trade for a big name is if the big name guy specifically wants to go to the Celtics. 

Maybe that's possible with Beal, but it seems a stretch to me that any All-Star looking for a better situation is going to put Boston at the top of his list.

I don't think they could get Towns without Brown, but I do think they'd have a shot at Beal doing a Harden type trade i.e. Walker plus 4 1st's and 3 swaps, or something like that.  If they can find a team to take Walker for expirings and another 1st, maybe Boston doesn't need to include as many.  Maybe you get Bertans as well saving them more money (I don't know what they think of Davis long term).

So do the trade right before the draft and finalize after (allowing the trade of back to back 1st's)

Boston - Beal, Bertans
Washington - Walker, Langford, 21 1st, 22 1st, 24 1st, 26 1st, swaps in 23, 25, and 27

Maybe you get some protection on some of the picks (like top 4 or something)

So post-trade (15 man roster)

Starters - Beal, Brown, Tatum, Bertans, R. Williams
Rotation - Pritchard, Smart, Fournier, Nesmith, Parker, Thompson
Deep Bench - Ojeleye, Kornet, G. Williams, Edwards

Obviously a bunch of different lineup configurations.  Maybe you have Smart starting with Bertans on the bench.  Or maybe Pritchard is ready to start.  Maybe you go a bit smaller and Fournier start instead of Bertans. 

I don't know if that team is quite to the level of Brooklyn next year, but it is certainly a heck of a lot closer and would certainly have a reasonable shot at beating them or any team in a playoff series. 

[keevsnick]

Ya its somewhat tuff. I see alot of people here just kind of assuming that Fournier will be back, but thats hard financially. Right now there are 11 guys under contract for next year. If Tatum misses all-NBA the c's will be just about 4 million under the tax for those 11 guys, meaning just using thier draft pick and signing some minimum guys would put you into the tax. So if Fournier returns for like 15 million a year, which may be optimistic, the team will be 20+ million into the tax.

I find it somewhat hard to believe they will go that deep. They literally have never gone more than 15 million in. I think it's possible if fournier returns theres a cost cutting move like Smart, Kemba leaving. Thompson could be a dump candidate, but with Theis gone and Timelord an injury risk that's a tough guy to move unless you are replacing him with another similar salary guy.

But financial stuff aside what could they do? Larry Nance Jr into the remainder of our TPE makes a lot of sense. Nance for our 1st + GWill makes some sense. We'll have the taxpayer MLE but that's only 5 million a year, still you can maybe get a vet. You could go star chasing by combining Smart+Thompson and picks/young guys. But all these options are tough financially because they add salary to our high tax bill.

Of course a Kemba trade opens up a lot of flexibility, I'm sure they will explore that.

The Cavs would never do that move.  They love Nance.  They may trade him, but they would need to blown away and a mid to late 1st and Grant Williams is not that sort of trade.

Ehhhh, I get what your saying but you don't typically get "blown away" level offers for role players. Nance has two years left on his deal, Covington went for two firsts last year on that basically same deal but he's a better offensive player. Gordon with a year and a half went for a prospect, a first, and Harris who has an overpaid year left at 20 million and is again a better player. I dont think a first and a young guy who plays the same position and has shown some flashes is that far off.

The cavs might not do it, teams overvalue players all the time. But it's around the right value. If thev cavs take a forward in the draft I bet they take offers on nance.

[wiley]

Biggest need:

Vet point guard who can run the offense.  And call Tatum and Brown on their crap when they over dribble, turn the ball over, and stagnate the offense and kill the ball movement.

A guy like Chris Paul would have been perfect for our team. Obviously he won't be available. 

Until we have strong veteran leadership who is going to make sure we play the right way, I see little hope of improvement. 

Would love to hear any suggestions on names.

I agree with one caveat, which is that we need to see how the C's play in the post season.  I'm not sure yet if the at times lackadaisical approach by the C's young stars is part of a team wide regular season malaise that many teams who frequently go deep in the playoffs seem to go through, or a sign of the C's true immature nature in a more concrete way.  So I'll wait for this year's playoffs to judge. 

If in the playoffs we see a continuation of what we've seen during most of this season, then I'm fully on board with you and your desire for a Chris Paul type leader and distributor.  If the same team is brought back without alterations in the realm of leadership then I'll expect the same regular season issues next year that the team has demonstrated this year.

[Ogaju]

so y’all have decided to move on to next season?

[Big333223]

It's probably worth remembering that the team's two best players are still 23 and 24 years old and players don't typically start winning at that age. Maybe we should give these guys credit for doing what they've done so far and allow that growth does not happen in a straight line. There are going to be some downs on the way up.

[Celtics4ever]

If Tatum misses all-NBA the c's will be just about 4 million under the tax for those 11 guys, meaning just using thier draft pick and signing some minimum guys would put you into the tax. So if Fournier returns for like 15 million a year, which may be optimistic, the team will be 20+ million into the tax.

I think he will have to have some strong performances to make all third team all NBA, he is so young he won't get the legacy votes like LeBron.  I think these guys are locks to make it

First Team:

G: Damian Lillard G: Steph Curry F: Lebron James F: Giannis Antetokounmpo C: Nikola Jokic

Second Team:

G: James Harden G: Luka Doncic F: Kawhi Leonard F: Kevin Durant C: Joel Embiid

add Beal,  Paul or Kyrie, Maybe Jimmy Butler, Randle or Tatum? and Gobert.  So definitely not a lock by any means and if they take in the team's performance Tatum might just miss it.

[nickagneta]

If Tatum misses all-NBA the c's will be just about 4 million under the tax for those 11 guys, meaning just using thier draft pick and signing some minimum guys would put you into the tax. So if Fournier returns for like 15 million a year, which may be optimistic, the team will be 20+ million into the tax.

I think he will have to have some strong performances to make all third team all NBA, he is so young he won't get the legacy votes like LeBron.  I think these guys are locks to make it

First Team:

G: Damian Lillard G: Steph Curry F: Lebron James F: Giannis Antetokounmpo C: Nikola Jokic

Second Team:

G: James Harden G: Luka Doncic F: Kawhi Leonard F: Kevin Durant C: Joel Embiid

add Beal,  Paul or Kyrie, Maybe Jimmy Butler, Randle or Tatum? and Gobert.  So definitely not a lock by any means and if they take in the team's performance Tatum might just miss it.

I think Randle is going to make 3rd team over Tatum

[Celtics4ever]

Me too.