How will the Celtics improve this off-season?

[Celtics4ever]

Second, I think Ainge runs most of this team back. Stevens too. I don’t think Kemba, Smart, the Jays, Timelord, Fournier and Pritchard are going anywhere. I also don’t see Semi, Tacko, Waters or Edwards returning. Everyone else, the remaining TPE and our draft picks could be used as trade bait. I don’t see all of the remaining players (Thompson, Grant, Nesmith, Langford, Kornet and Parker) not being brought back, but I do think some will be gone in trades.

I hope your right about not all those guys being back.  You named a lot of the guys that I think need to go.  I think even replacing some of the Grant, Tacko, Waters and Edmunds with NBA level veterans would help us a bit.   Look how NBA vets have ate up these guys when the play against them and our guys in general.

We need to draft well, as well but I fear it may be used to move Kemba.

Do we still have a portion of the trade exception that can be used for some purpose?

There is part of that thinks, and it kills me to say it, that we'd be better off not making the playoffs and getting a lottery pick.

Other teams really jumped past us in talent this year and they all had the same issues we faced with the no offseason.   We have been hit really hard with Covid compared to other teams though. 

[Celtics2021]

Second, I think Ainge runs most of this team back. Stevens too. I don’t think Kemba, Smart, the Jays, Timelord, Fournier and Pritchard are going anywhere. I also don’t see Semi, Tacko, Waters or Edwards returning. Everyone else, the remaining TPE and our draft picks could be used as trade bait. I don’t see all of the remaining players (Thompson, Grant, Nesmith, Langford, Kornet and Parker) not being brought back, but I do think some will be gone in trades.

I hope your right about not all those guys being back.  You named a lot of the guys that I think need to go.  I think even replacing some of the Grant, Tacko, Waters and Edmunds with NBA level veterans would help us a bit.   Look how NBA vets have ate up these guys when the play against them and our guys in general.

We need to draft well, as well but I fear it may be used to move Kemba.

Do we still have a portion of the trade exception that can be used for some purpose?

There is part of that thinks, and it kills me to say it, that we'd be better off not making the playoffs and getting a lottery pick.

Other teams really jumped past us in talent this year and they all had the same issues we faced with the no offseason.   We have been hit really hard with Covid compared to other teams though.

You're not going to replace guys on 2-way deals with NBA veterans.  It's literally in the rules.  If you're worried about the minutes those two have given us, it should only further how hard we've been hit by injury and Covid, as in normal years they wouldn't even be able to be with the team as much as they have this year.

[Big333223]

One thing about Kemba, he's playing well now and he's still not 31 years old. If the team can manage the salaries for one more year, then he becomes an expiring contract and all the hand-wringing about trying to get off his contract goes away. Actually, he becomes an asset. In the meantime, he's still a good starting caliber NBA point guard.

[RJ87]

Other than Marcus Smart, I see a severe lack of leadership qualities in our best players.

Tatum is not a leader.  That lazy pass intercepted by Rozier shows he is not leader.  Great player yes, but not a leader.

Stevens is not a leader.  Great coach yes, but he has lost control of this team.

I think Ainge runs most of this team back. Stevens too.

 
I just don't see  that as a successful approach.

I see leadership in Marcus and somewhat with Kemba.  But I agree we need a Jay to step up. I’m encouraged by remembering Paul Pierce who grew significantly in leadership skills after his mid-twenties.

When do you think that is going to happen?  Why should we believe it is ever going to happen?  Look, I like Tatum as an offensive player.  He's the best to be drafted by the C's in a long time (perhaps since Al Jefferson).  However, I have no reason to believe he can be a leader like PP or KG.

Isn’t Pierce a great example of a guy who grew into the role?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yroYIQiAQyI

There's this weird mythology around Paul Pierce where he's always been "The Captain". I get it, winning a championship erases a lot of bad memories and knucklehead antics, but it took Paul a long time to become a leader.

With the Jays, I'm more than willing to be patient. First and foremost, they're both already mature guys. We haven't seen any real behavior that's cause for concern. Secondly - and this is something that I think gets forgotten quite a bit - this is the Jays first real season as "the guys". There's no Kyrie, Horford, or Hayward anymore. Even Kemba has taken a step back.

I know we all want them to be perfect right away, but I think that's unreasonable and unrealistic. They should be allowed some missteps along the way as they figure who they are as leaders and how to best make an impact on their teammates.

As far as offseason improvement, I do think the biggest movement is going to be internal development.

[jambr380]

One thing about Kemba, he's playing well now and he's still not 31 years old. If the team can manage the salaries for one more year, then he becomes an expiring contract and all the hand-wringing about trying to get off his contract goes away. Actually, he becomes an asset. In the meantime, he's still a good starting caliber NBA point guard.

I am one of Kemba's biggest supporters, but even I realize that the writing is on the wall in regards to his future here. If Danny is able to move off of his contract for any value whatsoever, I think he will pull the trigger. It will allow us to comfortably re-sign Smart, Fournier, Rob, etc. I doubt we will trade him just into cap space (that's a lot of salary for a team to take on); but I could see taking back $10-20M in salary. We will miss him, but maybe others will get their wish of a pass-first PG. A healthy Fournier should also help take the load off of the Jays.

Semi and Kornet should be let go. Edwards (along with cash) should be traded into another teams small TPE (like we did with Poirier). Tacko and Waters should be replaced with other two-ways with potential.

I don't think a whole lot will happen, but it certainly can. For instance: Smart, TT, Nesmith and picks is enough salary to take back almost any max-level player. My outlandish prediction is we trade for Pascal Siakam as our 3rd star-level player to grow with the Jays.

[nickagneta]

I don't get how adding a Jalen Green or Jonathan Kuminga gets you closer to a ring than Kemba or someone better than Kemba if you use him as the trade bait. Neither Green nor Kuminga are sure things. Both could be a massive fail. If they aren't busts, they both may be 4-5 years from being able to meaningfully impact this team. That just so happens to be the same time frame where the Jays can walk. It might be best to try to prove the Celtics are true contenders and willing to spend to be one sometime before the Jays contracts expire.

[Vermont Green]

The short answer is that it won't be easy.  I like Fournier and I think they will make a run to sign him.  If they do that, along with the bump that Tatum gets, were going to be in the tax no matter what.  So to me, the tax is a given, not really a question.  Say we are able to sign Fournier, then we have pretty decent team, better than the team that made it to the final 4 last season.

The problem that remains is the lack of a scoring big.  I think there is a ceiling we will hit without improving that aspect.  Unfortunately, there are relatively few options to address that issue.  We will still have some TPE left but not enough to get a really top big.  There might be some sign and trade options for Collins, Markkanen, and maybe a couple of others but all kind of long shots.  This is the case even if we are able to clear Kemba's salary cap and don't sign Fournier.  We still just can't sign someone.

As others have said, we likely look a lot like we look now.  Brown and Tatum should improve.  Fournier will be integrated.  Players like Langford and Nesmith a little better to help the bench so there will be improvement.

The final option is to try to trade real value for a big, say Smart or Brown.  The idea is to create a more balanced roster and end up with a better team, even though you are giving up value.  I don't see this happening.

[Celtics4ever]

You're not going to replace guys on 2-way deals with NBA veterans.  It's literally in the rules.

Then get better guys on two way deals, simple solution.   Specialist veterans could replace some of the others.  Tacko is a great guy but can he ever play night in and night out.

https://stats.gleague.nba.com/leaders/

There are some guys there that might be better than our two way players.

  If you're worried about the minutes those two have given us, it should only further how hard we've been hit by injury and Covid, as in normal years they wouldn't even be able to be with the team as much as they have this year.

My post was above more than those two guys.   Every team has had issues with Covid though and excuses are like you know what everyone has one.  Teams have improved and we regressed you can blame Covid all you want but that won't change the fact.  Yes, we've been hard hit with more Covid than most teams and why is that?  Do your protocols stink?  Do guys not follow them? Is Massachusetts a Covid hotbed?   I don't live there and I am asking.   Why have we been so hard hit?  This has to be examined as it could be around for a while.

But when half your team should be in the G league it is a recipe for trouble.   This was not due to Covid.  It has came back to bite us again and again this season.   Ainge loves our guys, he wanted to see what we have,  and it is clear this has clouded his judgment.   I think he realized this and made some moves to try to fix it.

I think improving some of the guys who don't produce is the easiest path to improving the team.   It is attainable to some degree and more realistic than thinking we can land a star or giving up a star.   I hope Ainge can pull some stuff off but I have my doubts.

I don't get how adding a Jalen Green or Jonathan Kuminga gets you closer to a ring than Kemba or someone better than Kemba if you use him as the trade bait. Neither Green nor Kuminga are sure things. Both could be a massive fail.

This is true but Kemba could get hurt too and that is the other side of this equation.   I think Kemba will be better suited to the playoffs with the rest.   Trouble, is playoffs are more physical and smaller guards can struggle with this physicality.

That just so happens to be the same time frame where the Jays can walk. It might be best to try to prove the Celtics are true contenders and willing to spend to be one sometime before the Jays contracts expire.

This scares me as well and the press in Boston blames everything on them with their expectations.   It is clear they are both still growing as players.  I too fear they could walk.  Our track record of keeping stars is not good either as of late.

[nickagneta]

You're not going to replace guys on 2-way deals with NBA veterans.  It's literally in the rules.

Then get better guys on two way deals, simple solution.   Specialist veterans could replace some of the others.  Tacko is a great guy but can he ever play night in and night out.

https://stats.gleague.nba.com/leaders/

There are some guys there that might be better than our two way players.

  If you're worried about the minutes those two have given us, it should only further how hard we've been hit by injury and Covid, as in normal years they wouldn't even be able to be with the team as much as they have this year.

My post was above more than those two guys.   Every team has had issues with Covid though and excuses are like you know what everyone has one.  Teams have improved and we regressed you can blame Covid all you want but that won't change the fact.  Yes, we've been hard hit with more Covid than most teams and why is that?  Do your protocols stink?  Do guys not follow them? Is Massachusetts a Covid hotbed?   I don't live there and I am asking.   Why have we been so hard hit?  This has to be examined as it could be around for a while.

But when half your team should be in the G league it is a recipe for trouble.   This was not due to Covid.  It has came back to bite us again and again this season.   Ainge loves our guys, he wanted to see what we have,  and it is clear this has clouded his judgment.   I think he realized this and made some moves to try to fix it.

I think improving some of the guys who don't produce is the easiest path to improving the team.   It is attainable to some degree and more realistic than thinking we can land a star or giving up a star.   I hope Ainge can pull some stuff off but I have my doubts.

I don't get how adding a Jalen Green or Jonathan Kuminga gets you closer to a ring than Kemba or someone better than Kemba if you use him as the trade bait. Neither Green nor Kuminga are sure things. Both could be a massive fail.

This is true but Kemba could get hurt too and that is the other side of this equation.   I think Kemba will be better suited to the playoffs with the rest.   Trouble, is playoffs are more physical and smaller guards can struggle with this physicality.

That just so happens to be the same time frame where the Jays can walk. It might be best to try to prove the Celtics are true contenders and willing to spend to be one sometime before the Jays contracts expire.

This scares me as well and the press in Boston blames everything on them with their expectations.   It is clear they are both still growing as players.  I too fear they could walk.  Our track record of keeping stars is not good either as of late.

Small correction C4E, anyone who has played on an NBA contract or been drafted in the first round of the draft are ineligible for two-way contracts. It's mostly for guys of only being on the verge of being a real NBA player, true developmental guys. Hence why you see so many G Leaguers, undrafted free agents and 2nd round picks littering the two-way contracts around the league

[nickagneta]

The short answer is that it won't be easy.  I like Fournier and I think they will make a run to sign him.  If they do that, along with the bump that Tatum gets, were going to be in the tax no matter what.  So to me, the tax is a given, not really a question.  Say we are able to sign Fournier, then we have pretty decent team, better than the team that made it to the final 4 last season.

The problem that remains is the lack of a scoring big.  I think there is a ceiling we will hit without improving that aspect.  Unfortunately, there are relatively few options to address that issue.  We will still have some TPE left but not enough to get a really top big.  There might be some sign and trade options for Collins, Markkanen, and maybe a couple of others but all kind of long shots.  This is the case even if we are able to clear Kemba's salary cap and don't sign Fournier.  We still just can't sign someone.

As others have said, we likely look a lot like we look now.  Brown and Tatum should improve.  Fournier will be integrated.  Players like Langford and Nesmith a little better to help the bench so there will be improvement.

The final option is to try to trade real value for a big, say Smart or Brown.  The idea is to create a more balanced roster and end up with a better team, even though you are giving up value.  I don't see this happening.

Small thing VG, the Celtics won't be doing anything that hardcaps the team in the foreseeable future. Signing and trading players is one of those things that hardcaps a team.

[Celtics4ever]

Small correction C4E, anyone who has played on an NBA contract or been drafted in the first round of the draft are ineligible for two-way contracts. It's mostly for guys of only being on the verge of being a real NBA player, true developmental guys. Hence why you see so many G Leaguers, undrafted free agents and 2nd round picks littering the two-way contracts around the league

Thanks

Paul Reed would have been ideal then and guys in the G league who thrived this year had no prep either.

[SHAQATTACK]

Second, I think Ainge runs most of this team back. Stevens too. I don’t think Kemba, Smart, the Jays, Timelord, Fournier and Pritchard are going anywhere. I also don’t see Semi, Tacko, Waters or Edwards returning. Everyone else, the remaining TPE and our draft picks could be used as trade bait. I don’t see all of the remaining players (Thompson, Grant, Nesmith, Langford, Kornet and Parker) not being brought back, but I do think some will be gone in trades.

I hope your right about not all those guys being back.  You named a lot of the guys that I think need to go.  I think even replacing some of the Grant, Tacko, Waters and Edmunds with NBA level veterans would help us a bit.   Look how NBA vets have ate up these guys when the play against them and our guys in general.

We need to draft well, as well but I fear it may be used to move Kemba.

Do we still have a portion of the trade exception that can be used for some purpose?

There is part of that thinks, and it kills me to say it, that we'd be better off not making the playoffs and getting a lottery pick.

Other teams really jumped past us in talent this year and they all had the same issues we faced with the no offseason.   We have been hit really hard with Covid compared to other teams though.

As usual “ good stuff “ 

[nickagneta]

I mentioned it quickly in the OP, but what are people's thought on trying to overwhelm Memphis with an offer for Valanciunas. Give them Timelord and Smart and some first rounders.

Now maybe Memphis laughs at that but it would definitely be worth a try.

[gouki88]

I think a lot of it will come internally, like retaining Fournier and integrating him more fully into the team, and continued growth from some of our youngsters. Signing Fournier to a 68/4 kind of deal would be ideal for me.


I'd also like to see us make a trade like so: https://tradenba.com/trades/g1E15aPYy

Boston trades: Grant Williams, Tristan Thompson, Carsen Edwards, 2022 top-5 protected 1st

Memphis trades: Jonas Valanciunas

Memphis get a first round pick and some cheap role players, the Celtics get JV. JV isn't really in the same age window as the rest of Memphis' roster, but he's averaging 17/12.5 in 28MPG. My dream would be for him and Rob Williams to split the 5 rotation down the middle, 24MPG each, or maybe 26/22 towards JV. He'd take a lot of the physical pressure off of Rob with his strength and brawn, and he's a genuinely big guy, unlike TT.


In the draft with our 1st I'd take Jalen Johnson or Franz Wagner. Both versatile forwards who can do a bit of everything. Franz is a bit older, can shoot significantly better and has a bit more polish - Johnson has a higher athletic upside and is a significantly better rebounder. Either would be worthwhile in my opinion.

In the second I'd take Herb Jones and Isaiah Todd. Todd can continue to play in the G-League on a two-way (I can't see any reason in retaining a turning 26 y/o Tacko and a 23 y/o Tremont). Jones is a do-it-all wing who can genuinely play 2-4 on defence and can playmake, so I'd be pretty happy with him stepping into that third string role we lose from Grant being shipped to Memphis. Todd was ranked 13 in his high school class, he's an impressive athlete at 6'10 with a 7'0 wingspan, and he's got some nice skills. Can play stretch 5 but is pretty useful as a 4. Worth taking a punt on.


I'd also love to add a veteran like Wayne Ellington to the bench in free agency. Basically only shoots threes now, but with Fournier and PP off the bench taking most of the playmaking duties I'm happy to have someone there to keep the D honest. If Langford develops a three point shot he overtakes him.


So our rotation, ultimately, would be:

Jonas Valanciunas / Robert Williams / Luke Kornet / Isaiah Todd
Jayson Tatum / Jabari Parker / Jalen Johnson / Herb Jones
Jaylen Brown / Evan Fournier / Aaron Nesmith
Marcus Smart / Wayne Ellington / Romeo Langford
Kemba Walker / Payton Pritchard

That would be an ideal off-season for me. I would think that this team would be an improvement over what we have currently, chiefly for the reason that we likely won't be absolutely hammered by illness and injury. Add some toughness up front with JV and some shooting to the bench and I like what we've got!

[PhoSita]

So to me, the tax is a given, not really a question. 

It makes a really, really big difference if you're 5-10 million into the tax compared to being 15, 20, 25, 30 million into the tax.

The tax penalty gets much bigger as you go deeper in.  If the Celts are $20 million over the tax (very easy to get there if they re-sign Fournier and don't move anyone else) they will be paying over $50 million just in luxury tax.