Grading Danny's deadline-day moves

[GreenlyGreeny]

Not to rain on the parade, but Fournier is not worth giving up TPE. He’s not going to push us over the top and now we do not have a game-changer TPE in the off-season. Sure, we’ll maybe be respectable again (and we won’t ever cross the luxury line), but there’s clearly no plan to get us past the Nets in the next 2-3 years. Brown and Tatum are gone in 4-5 years if we do not make things happen. Too bad we did not give up Brown for Harden so that we would be the title favorites. But hey, at least we can draft a bunch of Langfords and Nesmiths while staying below the luxury line.

Getting rid of Theis was an awful move. Classic Danny: Dude wants an extension that’s at market value? Be gone. I call the shots here.

I’m sure that proved to be popular in the locker room.

We’re dealing with human beings here, not video game characters. Treating everyone as disposable, with no loyalty to anybody, is not how we won so many titles. And clearly it’s not how you win a championship now either, as evidenced by the past 13 years of falling short. If he treats the players this way, imagine how he really feels about the fans.

#FireDanny

[Kuberski33]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

[Who]

Too bad we did not give up Brown for Harden so that it would be us that is the title favorites.

That non-trade could be the last shot this team has a title for quite some time.

I am not sure there is a path for this group to get to a Championship with this group. Not without Kemba having a renaissance of some type or being jettisoned and allowing for a rebuilding of this team around Jaylen & Tatum.

[fmbl24]

Does anyone know what ESPN and the Athletic gave the Celtics for a grade?

[nebist]

I would give the day a C- currently. However, I could see it as more of a B/B- if we resign Fournier for something reasonable like 3/48 in the off-season.

Primary reasons for the low grade.
1) Missed opportunity cost to use the TPE for something better/ long-term (would be somewhat mitigated if Fournier re-signs).
2) Not beating either the Gordon or Vucevic deals. I thought the price was reasonable on both players. Thompson (better contract than Harris), Nesmith (similar level prospect to Hampton), and a first should have trumped that Denver trade. Similarly, Timelord, 2 firsts, and the TPE to save Orlando paying Porter should have beat the Bulls offer. Seems like either one of those moves could have been paired with Fournier and we’d be set up much better now and into future.

I do think Fournier is a legitimate scorer who will help our rotation right now significantly and who I could see being valuable moving forward if his next contract doesn’t get too ridiculous.

[Quetzalcoatl]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

Thris is good at defense...in the regular season.  Come play offs time Bam is taking him out to the woodshed

[Somebody]

A big fat F, with F standing for FIRE instead of FAIL.

Fournier is the ultimate regular season fraud. I've went into his qualitative shortcomings against strong playoff defences even as a 3rd or 4th option in the Fournier thread, so here is some quantitative analysis of his play against playoff defences:

Per game averages in his last two playoff series (10 games)
12.6 points, 3.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists on 34.9/29.0/72.0 shooting, 46.0% TS.

The sample size isn't perfect, but I've watched most games in both series and Fournier doesn't look any different physically - the low hanging fruit that he grabs in the regular season simply got taken away by elite defences in the playoffs with just increased intensity from his man. And it wasn't like the Bucks or Raptors keyed in on him with their best defenders - Fournier was relegated to being the 3rd or 4th option in those two playoff series, so the Raptors rotated whichever of Green/Kawhi/Lowry/Siakam who was free on him while the Bucks used defensive legend Wesley Matthews to shut him down.

Now Fournier did pretty well against weaker defenders (eg. Norman Powell), but the best teams in the league mostly have strong defences with a stable of good perimeter defenders. The 76ers have Danny Green, Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris and Matisse Thybulle, the Bucks have DiVincenzo, Middleton, Holiday and Giannis, the Lakers have Caruso, Matthews (hello darkness my old friend to Fournier), LeBron and Davis, the Clippers have Kawhi, George, Batum and Beverley and the Suns have Paul, Bridges, Crowder and Johnson.

Obviously even a Fournier who struggles against strong playoff defences is a massive upgrade over our bench wings, but this is far from the 19 PPG guy people think we're getting, and I'm not sure if it's good asset management to spend 2 2nds and a big chunk of our TPE for him when the Bucks got PJ Tucker for a 2nd and salary filler (obviously Tucker is much older than Fournier, but I see them both on opposite ends of the offence/defence spectrum as 'good role players').

As for moving Theis for a considerably worse prospect and a useless centre, my thoughts are the same as what most echoed when the trade was made: we traded one of our best bigs for rubbish and little to no tax savings with zero assets in return.

[Somebody]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

Thris is good at defense...in the regular season.  Come play offs time Bam is taking him out to the woodshed

There aren't a lot of bigs who dominate centres physically the way Bam does, even among the best teams in the league.

[liam]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

Thris is good at defense...in the regular season.  Come play offs time Bam is taking him out to the woodshed

There aren't a lot of bigs who dominate centres physically the way Bam does, even among the best teams in the league.

Theis is raked as the 42 best center on: https://www.ranker.com/list/best-current-nba-centers/ranker-nba

Mo Wagner 58 Tristan Thompson 27 TIMELORD 49

I don't think the rankings are that good but there are at least 30 centers better than Theis on that list.

[GreenlyGreeny]

A big fat F, with F standing for FIRE instead fail

Well put. I feel the same way. The homerism for Danny has gotta end. It’s absurd that almost 50% are giving this a B. Unless they mean B as in BLOWING the TPE and blowing off a Celtic in Theis.

[Somebody]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

Thris is good at defense...in the regular season.  Come play offs time Bam is taking him out to the woodshed

There aren't a lot of bigs who dominate centres physically the way Bam does, even among the best teams in the league.

Theis is raked as the 42 best center on: https://www.ranker.com/list/best-current-nba-centers/ranker-nba

Mo Wagner 58 Tristan Thompson 27 TIMELORD 49

I don't think the rankings are that good but there are at least 30 centers better than Theis on that list.

This list is formed by online votes by randoms on the internet, this is even worse than pulling up a BPM/WS list.

[Somebody]

A big fat F, with F standing for FIRE instead fail

Well put. I feel the same way. The homerism for Danny has gotta end. It’s absurd that almost 50% are giving this a B. Unless they mean B as in BLOWING the TPE and blowing off a Celtic in Theis.

Ikr. Absolute shambles of a trade deadline for us. I'm not even sure if Fournier is a better player than Theis in the playoffs

[liam]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

Thris is good at defense...in the regular season.  Come play offs time Bam is taking him out to the woodshed

There aren't a lot of bigs who dominate centres physically the way Bam does, even among the best teams in the league.

Theis is raked as the 42 best center on: https://www.ranker.com/list/best-current-nba-centers/ranker-nba

Mo Wagner 58 Tristan Thompson 27 TIMELORD 49

I don't think the rankings are that good but there are at least 30 centers better than Theis on that list.

This list is formed by online votes by randoms on the internet, this is even worse than pulling up a BPM/WS list.

I don't think the rankings on this list are good as I said above. I said that I think there are 30 centers on this list better than Theis.

[Somebody]

My initial grade was C-. Giving it some thought I'm coming around on making the move for Fournier even with the uncertainty of him going elsewhere. Upgrading a team in the C's position can sometimes require taking chances. Fournier is an upgrade - they need talent coming off the bench so they did that and didn't give up much so it's worth the risk.

They were never going to re-sign Theis. As good as he may be defensively, the Celtics overall team defense absolutely stinks so if you're thinking long term, does it matter whether he stays or not? 

The key is adding a needed piece in Fournier so I'll move the grade to B-

Thris is good at defense...in the regular season.  Come play offs time Bam is taking him out to the woodshed

There aren't a lot of bigs who dominate centres physically the way Bam does, even among the best teams in the league.

Theis is raked as the 42 best center on: https://www.ranker.com/list/best-current-nba-centers/ranker-nba

Mo Wagner 58 Tristan Thompson 27 TIMELORD 49

I don't think the rankings are that good but there are at least 30 centers better than Theis on that list.

This list is formed by online votes by randoms on the internet, this is even worse than pulling up a BPM/WS list.

I don't think the rankings on this list are good as I said above. I said that I think there are 30 centers on this list better than Theis.

There might be if you rate centres based on how many points and rebounds they get in the box score

[CelticSooner]

The C’s have no plan. They are just hoping that a potential Beal Tatum friendship eventually leads to something. Ainge is operating like this is 10-15 years ago. These guys don’t stay anywhere longer than their second contract anymore. We are back wishing again