Gorman isn’t happy - went off on Tatum/Brown

[Birdman]

It’s our bench..worse I have seen it since I started watching in 1979.. don’t blame Stevens, I blame Ainge

[Tr1boy]

It’s our bench..worse I have seen it since I started watching in 1979.. don’t blame Stevens, I blame Ainge

You know they are shooting at like 40-45 percent overall

The bench collectively

They just don't have the FGA numbers to illustrate if this shooting percentage is real or not

Because they don't get the opportunity.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think the "ball stopping" is a little overblown when you consider this league and esp. we used to have this player his name was paul pierce and whenever we needed a basket we'd dump it into him and he'd get us something most of the time.

I think gorman forgets this a lil bit. In his defense I think he's more upset with the result, I think brown and tatum settle for a pull up jumper too much. Tatum is almost guaranteed to go for a fadeaway. But even brown too  instead of driving all the way will pull up in the paint and shoot that lil jumper.

And that's the problem with this team and no matter who the players are, it's the kind of offense they're told to play. But we have all these winning seasons that say otherwise so I must be wrong.

My theory is that the Brad Stevens pace-and-space system, with its heavy reliance on outside shooting, is good enough to get the team to the final four (as evidenced by 3 trips there in the last 4 years), but NOT good enough to get the team past that (as evidenced by 3 losses in 3 trips there in the last 4 years).

[celts55]

Flat out, most of our bench would be playing G League on other teams.

The Celts have much bigger problems than the Js.

Total myth and fiction. Most of our guys (Semi, Nesmith, Pritchard, Rob Williams, Grant Williams, Javonte) would get minutes, some more than others, on most other teams.  The two way guys wouldn't, but that is true of most other two way guys. The only guy who probably would have trouble finding roster spot is Carson Edwards, and some team would probably take a flyer on him (Cavs lol) based on college rep.

All right, I'll put it this way. None of them are anywhere near being #6 in the rotation like a Marcus Smart or even Marcus Morris. They're mostly end-of-bencher type players that you'd put in during garbage time.

Not saying that a guy like Pritchard couldn't move up the ranks but he's not there yet.

Grant is shooting the 3 at over 40 percent

Semi is usually good with the open 3. I believe he is shooting at 37 percent

Nesmith was drafted because he was considered the best 3 pt shooter of the draft

Pritchard a quality 3 pt shooter


Yet they have all stood around collecting dust these days.   Nesmith on several occasions last night was wide open. 

Let me ask you.  If the team had Doncic instead of Jays/Walker.  Do you think he would let them collect dust?

Nesmith didn't attempt a shot last night yet played 22 minutes.  How can that happen?

Because they don't pass him the ball in position to take a shot. There was one play in particular where he was wide open in the corner. Tatum dribbled around than took a side step 3. He missed. I was yelling at him to pass the ball to Nesmith, but no. Happens a bunch.

That being said, they are both pretty young and need to learn when to go ISO and when to pass. Although I personally would not lump them together. I think Tatum is mush less likely to share the ball then Brown.

[DrinkinCelticKool-Aid]

I love Mike, but the cover he was laying for Brad's coaching style is ridiculous. Everyone knows Brad coaches soft and therefore the team plays that way, especially in light of the absence of Smart. And without p---ed off fans there to hold players accountable for a half ass performance, there is no accountability. Brad needs to demand accountability. I don't buy the "that's not his coaching style". You need to be able to adapt and be able to provide what the team needs of you. That goes for both players and coaches.

[Csfan1984]

I feel this is all on everyone DA, BS, the Js and Kemba. When Js start the game they share the ball but when BS pulls a J it becomes more iso and hero ball. The Js are staggered and you end up building this bad play into both guy. 2nd half they try to get back on track but as soon as there is another substitute it's iso ball again and guys get mad at each other and stop focusing. The team wouldn't see this trend if each guy was looking at themselves including management. The fact BS, and the Js are not realizing this trend is a problem. The fact Kemba is struggling is his own problem. The fact DA didn't get reliable bench players that can elevate the starters is a problem of both systems and talent evaluation problems.

[Vermont Green]

I don't think this is an issue with Brown and Tatum not wanting to do the right thing.  They are both still learning how to plays as a team's primary offensive option (where the defense doubles you all the time) and they are trying to learn this with a fairly weak supporting cast after the "big 3".

Give it time.  I suspect they know what they need to do.

[Tr1boy]

I don't think this is an issue with Brown and Tatum not wanting to do the right thing.  They are both still learning how to plays as a team's primary offensive option (where the defense doubles you all the time) and they are trying to learn this with a fairly weak supporting cast after the "big 3".

Give it time.  I suspect they know what they need to do.

But they won't *evil grin*

In all seriousness

remember this?

Disjointed Celtics hold team meeting, as Kyrie Irving calls team out for ‘selfish’ play
https://theathletic.com/729642/2018/12/22/disjointed-celtics-hold-team-meeting-as-kyrie-irving-calls-team-out-for-selfish-play/

It was weird that the president of "selfish" was the one sending this message.   But its so outrageous that I believe it.  Jays haven't changed much

[blink]

I think there has been some me-first ball played by Tatum and somewhat by Brown.  But what other consistent scorers do we have?  When Tatum sits, who other than Brown is aggressive with the ball / driving to the hoop?  PP does, but he has kind of hit a little rookie wall.  We have a really limited offensive team when you get past Tatum/Brown/Kemba.  Smart can be a release valve at times, but who knows when he is coming back.  We just have a lot of young guys who are still trying to figure it out.

I think Tatum is more guilty of not sharing than Brown.  I notice it more when Tatum is slow to react to the double teams.  Instead of making the quick play, to the open man, he tries to drive around the double team.  I hope that will improve.  I think Tatum wants to play the right way.

I feel like Jaylen's assist numbers have gone up and he moves the ball when he can.  Tatum, sometimes he doesn't care about sharing the ball, he cares about scoring.  But was that any different with Paul Pierce when he was 22?   But when we go through the loses like we have in the last week or so, everyone is going to be a bit salty.  I wonder if Gorman regrets saying any of that, even if some of it is kind of true?

[nickagneta]

I agree the ball sopping is worrisome, but I think the team needs to live with it this year so as to develop the Jays properly.

Let's face it, neither Tatum nor Brown are especially gifted with excellent floor vision or outstanding passing ability. Therefore, it must be taught them and the team is going to need to live with the ups and downs that occur with both of them as those portions of their games mature.

Kawhi is similar to Brown and Tatum in that regard. He really wasn't passing the ball all that much until he got to LA. He was over 30% in his usage while being under 19% assist ratio for 4 years. It took until Kawhi's 9th year to hit the 30% usage, 20% assist% plateau. Kobe took 5 seasons to reach it. It took Bradley Beal 8 seasons to do it. And our very own Paul Pierce took 5 years to accomplish it.

Brown looks to be hitting it that 30/20 level in his 5th year and Tatum in his 4th year. So there is hope. To be a great all around on ball offensive engine, you need time to develop the experience to know when to create for yourself and create for others. We just need some patience to get through the growing pains.

I also think this wouldn't be nearly the issue it is if more veterans were on the team, confident in their own game and won't differ to the Jays every trip down the floor. Or look exclusively for their own offense. I am actually kinda shocked Kemba wasn't mentioned. Or Smart. They both get ball hoggy/ball stopish. Compare that to Horford and Hayward, who were excellent, unselfish playmakers from the wing and frontcourt positions who made the offense run better. So in a way, this is Ainge's responsibility as well for constructing the team this way. 

It's also Stevens responsibility for not instituting more plays that force more off ball movement, more cuts, more passes and less isolation and hand off passes from their bigs. Stevens has a tough job though. He needs to encourage the duo to be the team's scoring leaders, while also teaching them to do it within the function of the offensive system and trust their team mates. They, of course, might respect their team mates more if most of their team mates weren't mediocre to poor players still on their rookie contracts.

So maybe, for development's sake, this is a bit of a bridge year, while the Jays learn. But let's hope Ainge and Stevens learn too. With this lack of ball movement, there is tons of blame to go around.

[Tr1boy]

Wyc will be on Felger and Mazz sometime between 4-5 pm today

Should be interesting

These clowns rehashing Gorman going off on Tatum and Brown

[Wretch]

Love Mike as play by play guy but JB and JT are both efficient scorers (JT is down slightly over prior years but still efficient when compared the entire league). Both increased their assist numbers over prior years.  They are not ball stoppers.  The team assist number are down because Smart is out and Hayward is gone.

[Atzar]

Hard to argue with anything that Gorman said in that bit. 

The part that bothered me was when one of the guys mentioned that the Jays are getting beaten by other young stars.  Tatum and Brown are young... BUT youth hasn't stopped guys like Doncic (21), Zion (20) and Ingram (23), Trae (22), and Fox (23) from outplaying our stars in the fourth quarter of these recent losses.  These other kids are getting it done in crunch time.  Our kids aren't. 

I'm patient.  I expected us to take a step back after losing Hayward for nothing.  I don't see us as contenders this year, and that is what it is.  But getting beaten consistently by .500-or-below teams led by other young stars is something that doesn't sit well with me. 

[footey]

Love Mike as play by play guy but JB and JT are both efficient scorers (JT is down slightly over prior years but still efficient when compared the entire league). Both increased their assist numbers over prior years.  They are not ball stoppers.  The team assist number are down because Smart is out and Hayward is gone.

You sound like someone who reads the box scores but doesn’t watch the games. Tatum is one of the biggest ball stoppers in the NBA. Assist numbers are higher because their usage rates are so high.

[GreenEnvy]

Hard to argue with anything that Gorman said in that bit. 

The part that bothered me was when one of the guys mentioned that the Jays are getting beaten by other young stars.  Tatum and Brown are young... BUT youth hasn't stopped guys like Doncic (21), Zion (20) and Ingram (23), Trae (22), and Fox (23) from outplaying our stars in the fourth quarter of these recent losses.  These other kids are getting it done in crunch time.  Our kids aren't. 

I'm patient.  I expected us to take a step back after losing Hayward for nothing.  I don't see us as contenders this year, and that is what it is.  But getting beaten consistently by .500-or-below teams led by other young stars is something that doesn't sit well with me.

I think that is a bit overblown. Should we delve into all the aforementioned young stars playoff numbers? We've seen our guys perform like stars in multiple Conference Finals against teams with superstar veterans. Four of the 5 we recently got beat by haven't sniffed the playoffs. Luka was superb in his only playoff series, but he's possibly the greatest 21-year-old we've ever seen.